Does Enviroment Affect Balefire?

[The Fisher King]

I'm thinking...it has too.

 

We've been told for many years that *intent* the length of time back in the timeline and, most importantly, the STRENGTH of the channeler involved are the most vital elements. But I think there has to be more than that.

 

Hypothetical: Lets just saaaaay - during Lews Therin's time, he and Ilyena are cornered by - three Darkhounds, for example.

 

They make contact with Ilyena - and one even manages to slobber a SINGLE DROP on her BEFORE the BF - but LTT BFs them all.

 

We all know about how dreadful and nasty a DH is. Legend has it they will be driven by The DARK ONE HIMSELF in ''The Last Hunt'' (The Last Battle itself).

 

I am wondering, should not Balefire, - POWERFUL ENOUGH to erase THREE DARKHOUNDS from existence - and channeled by THE DRAGON HIMSELF be enough to also erase a SINGLE DROP of residue as well???!!!

 

LOL!

 

 

ROFL!

 

 

I mean - HUH??

 

See what I did there? ;)

 

 

Fish

[Leyrann]

It does. So what's your problem?

[Terez]

I think many people explained this to you already, but I'll try again. The Darkhound slobbered all over Mat. Rand balefired the Darkhound back to the point where it had only slobbered one drop on Mat. So, most of the slobber was removed by the balefire, but not all of it.

[The Fisher King]

It does. So what's your problem?

 

Here is my problem. Inconsistency with regards to what was establishes as the ''Rules'' of Balefire and being unable to freely discuss those inconsistencies. If someone like Tuon...or maybe a better example might be Bode...a new channeler without much experience or strength, tries to Balefire something, it should not have the same impact as a much greater Channeler. And by the midpoint of the series there was no longer any real distinction between Saidar and Saidin. And you can trust me on that one. Male and Female regarding the Power. Channeling is Channeling. A Channeler is A Channeler.

 

In terms of WHAT you are channeling, I mean. Obviously some may be more powerful or skilled than others.

 

Michael Jordan may be a better basketball player than Joe Schmoe, but in the end, basketball is basketball.

 

But can Joe Schmoe dunk like Jordan? Of course not.

 

The point is, the amount of friggin BALEFIRE (which has long been outlawed by the White Council) channeled by the friggin DRAGON in CLOSE PROXIMITY to wipe out THE DARK ONE'S OWN PERSONAL CREATURES (darkhounds) would MORE THAN completely OBLITERATE and and ALL trace of any of it.

 

I think you can take this to the bank.

 

THAT is my problem. This is a WOT Discussion Board. I'm discussing, as is my right :)

 

 

Fish

[Terez]

It does. So what's your problem?

 

Here is my problem. Inconsistency with regards to what was establishes as the ''Rules'' of Balefire and being unable to freely discuss those inconsistencies.

There is no inconsistency - only your misunderstanding. Rand learned that he had to control the strength of his balefire to avoid balefiring things behind the target accidentally. Therefore, it doesn't matter how strong Rand is; it only matters how strong his balefire was. The weakest balefire could remove three Darkhounds from the Pattern - it just wouldn't burn back their threads very far.

[The Fisher King]

It does. So what's your problem?

 

Here is my problem. Inconsistency with regards to what was establishes as the ''Rules'' of Balefire and being unable to freely discuss those inconsistencies.

There is no inconsistency - only your misunderstanding. Rand learned that he had to control the strength of his balefire to avoid balefiring things behind the target accidentally. Therefore, it doesn't matter how strong Rand is; it only matters how strong his balefire was. The weakest balefire could remove three Darkhounds from the Pattern - it just wouldn't burn back their threads very far.

 

Bold mine. ... Now, THAT is a point I can respect. HOWEVER, it is certainly not our understanding that by as early as Book Five he had learned (and certainly not mastered) such a fine control over the ''wildly uncontrollable'' Power known as Balefire.

 

I really do not see the problem with allowing everyone their own interpretation of the the fantasy elements in the story...

 

 

Fish

[Leyrann]

It wasn't weak balefire Rand used, he was just not on full strength already. He just used full power. He didn't even know the effects by then. Moiraine told it after this incident.

[Terez]

Remembering what had happened before, Rand darted to one side as he channeled, the shaft of liquid white fire streaking by the door as it destroyed the Shadowspawn. He had tried to make it less this time, to confine the destruction to the Darkhounds, but the thick wall at the far end of the chamber had a shadowed hole in it. Not all the way through, he thought – it was hard to tell by moonlight – but he would have to fine his control of this weapon.

[Leyrann]

Okay, I was wrong...

[Terez]

No, you were mostly right. It was weaker balefire than he used on the first batch of Darkhounds, but still not as weak as possible (which would be what he used on the Shadowspawn in Caemlyn after he balefired Rahvin and went subconsciously looking for Aviendha). And indeed, he didn't know the effects yet, because Moiraine hadn't yet told him.

[Leyrann]

But I was partly wrong. And now we have to stop spamming, because otherwise Luckers will lock the thread...

[Terez]

I think he locked it for snide comments. Probably mine, since I just had to get my point in. It's an important point - if you don't know these books like the back of your hand, then you shouldn't be so bold in asserting things about it, and it's especially bad when you try to make snide points about how 'RJ isn't perfect' (as if to say that all of us are fangirls and fanboys who would never acknowledge RJ being anything less than perfect) when the basis of said snide point is a passage you haven't even bothered to read recently. Ask questions instead - there are plenty of people around who do know these books that well.

[The Fisher King]

I think he locked it for snide comments. Probably mine, since I just had to get my point in. It's an important point - if you don't know these books like the back of your hand, then you shouldn't be so bold in asserting things about it, and it's especially bad when you try to make snide points about how 'RJ isn't perfect' (as if to say that all of us are fangirls and fanboys who would never acknowledge RJ being anything less than perfect) when the basis of said snide point is a passage you haven't even bothered to read recently. Ask questions instead - there are plenty of people around who do know these books that well.

 

Terez, my comment WASN'T snide towards RJ and I am sorry if you took it so. But, the man WASN'T Perfect. None of us are. In over 10, 000 pages he was bound to make a slip up or two. It is not sacrilegous to point that out. Listen, I am VERY GOOD at my job, but if I made a mistake and someone pointed out, ''Well, he's not perfect'' - I would think it VERY ODD to take offense or find the comment ''snide.'' - Maybe the misunderstanding here is merely one of a language difference...''Quote Mistess.''

 

Also, I SERIOUSLY DOUBT Luckers would close this thread. Why? He is way more intelligent, easygoing and levelheaded than that sort of knee-jerkingly silly, over-the-top overreaction, lol.This is a WOT Discussion Board and Balefire has been a MAJOR PART of the series. No one hereis flaming, being vulgar or profane. Just discussing differeing interpretations of how Balefire worked in a particular chapter. That is all. Show me where there has been any different. Let's all be adults here. I am, to my dismay sometimes, known as the guy who will ''Ask the hard questions'' - the ones ''Everyone else is afraid to ask'' but if that comes out as too dangerous or edgy sometimes, when I am sincerely very pleasant, then I DO apologize. Its a tough label, but also a responsibility considering I have been there since Mr Jordan's FIRST Book Signings for EOTW. Trust me, I much more enjoy being the poster that is loved by so many for the lighthearted and freshly thought-provoking wittiness usually so evident. Now, we've all apologized like adults do, so there is no reason to discontinue a new thread discussing fresh aspects of something that continues to this day to be a very, very intergal part of the series. Take that to the bank.

 

And, in that regard, I will add:The slobber left on Cauthon's arm is an interesting mirror to the residue left on Min exactly seven books later when the Balefire-Induced ''Choking'' of Min resulted in visiblly-existing marks on her neck that have not faded to this very day. You can trust me on that one.

 

When I met Robert Jordan, and chatted with him about WOT, he was far, far from this ''perfect'' machine-like robot churning out novel after novel with no chance of an error now and then. In contrast, he was an excited, slightly shy, yet also exuberant man caught up in the swirl of Early WOT and very, very fallible seeming. That is exactly what ENDEARED the man to me. No attempts at arrogance. No pretense at perfection.

 

I still miss him.

 

 

Fish

 

 

P.S. Another thought on Balefire that certainly never seen the light of day here on DM is the odd occurence of it LOC in Shadar Logoth - and never adequately explained in the follow-up scene in ACOS.

 

Sometimes I think I'm a dork for knowing so much of the history and workings of the series, almost chapter by chapter, lol - but its a knowledge and expertise I am honored to have and wouldn't trade for all the tatoos in Shara - that knowledge just makes me feel too warm and fuzzy in these hard times. I'm just that kind of guy. I usually can't be faulted and I get along with everybody :)

[Terez]

This seems to be an issue of reading comprehension. In any case, I give up.

[Hadilmir]

I hate to say it, but I'm with Terez on this one. Perhaps if you could explain yourself concisely, Fish? Right now all I see is you making a big deal of a small inconsistency which probably isn't even inconsistency (I do not see it as one).

[The Fisher King]

Hey; like Mr Jordan I'm never afraid to admit when I might be wrong, lol.

 

I feel like I am seeing some definite inconsistencies sprinkled throughout the series concerning the ''Rules'' of Balefire, but if I'm just not seeing it from the right angle - well, that is certainly always a possibility!

 

 

Fish

[Cybertrolloc]

And, in that regard, I will add:The slobber left on Cauthon's arm is an interesting mirror to the residue left on Min exactly seven books later when the Balefire-Induced ''Choking'' of Min resulted in visiblly-existing marks on her neck that have not faded to this very day. You can trust me on that one.

The text seems pretty clear for Mat + Darkhounds in Rhuidean to me, don't see where you're getting what you're getting. Can you provide quotes or at least chapter numbers?

 

The question is did RJ have something internally consistent for the workings of balefire? Only a few people can tell us that, and none of them post here. Corollary to that is if RJ had some sensible workings for balefire, is there good enough reporting of events by narrators to figure that out and what those workings are?

 

As for the second part and my answers to those questions--balefire was a big mess imo, and seems like it's gotten worse under BS. However, WoT doesn't take place in our reality, so it's possible it can all be internally consistent to the handful of people who've read all the notes :)

[mackoY-kun]

I'll try to explain what those people already explained above.

 

Let's measure BF power by numbers of seconds it erases existence, and also define the time line by seconds as well. Let's take the instance with Mat in Rhuidean as example.

 

time

 

00:00 - fisrt time mat is hit by a drop of slobber

00:09 - by this time the DH has already slobbered tons of saliva on Mat

00:10 - time of bale fire hitting DH with a 9 seconds power (because he moderated his power use, making it weaker so as not to damage too much behind the target)

 

That means a 1 second discrepancy, in that one second only a drop is existent on Mat's arm, and that's what Moiraine later heals.

[francy]

I'll try to explain what those people already explained above.

 

Let's measure BF power by numbers of seconds it erases existence, and also define the time line by seconds as well. Let's take the instance with Mat in Rhuidean as example.

 

time

 

00:00 - fisrt time mat is hit by a drop of slobber

00:09 - by this time the DH has already slobbered tons of saliva on Mat

00:10 - time of bale fire hitting DH with a 9 seconds power (because he moderated his power use, making it weaker so as not to damage too much behind the target)

 

That means a 1 second discrepancy, in that one second only a drop is existent on Mat's arm, and that's what Moiraine later heals.

 

Perfectly explained! I was pretty much thinking along the same lines...

 

By the way, Fish - I love you!! I think you're pretty darn cool, I enjoy your posts... I agree - no reason this post would be locked, no one started using vulgar language or throwing virtual rotten tomatoes. Nothing wrong with a healthy, lively, well articulated debate! Was fun reading through this post!

 

:-)

[rand4747]

I think there is several aspects of balefire you can control.

The Strength, so how far back it burns

The Width, how big it is

and last The Target/distance it goes before it vanishes.

 

I think the strength is unrelated to how far it travels. Generally the more powerfull the bigger and further it burns but thats probably what happens with the people who have no real control of it. I think its entirely possible, you can make one really powerfull thats needle thin and targetting a fly if you so wanted.

[The Fisher King]

Thanks to all the kind words above and a couple of those balefire numeric breakdowns are really interesting to look at. Ive had some terrible blows recently, which is why I can't post as much, but I read it all and this Board has always helped get me through the tough times.

 

I wasn't really upset with anyone (Terez) - I just am not used to today's accepted debating style chock full of innuendo, snideness, sarcasm and such. But thats my bad, not hers. She does a great job with all of it and she is great at the quotes - very befitting of her chosen 'Title' lol ;) Her index of interviews pertaining to WOT is AWESOME. I think, as she said, we were just misunderstanding each other.

 

When I have time, I'll maybe post a more detailed thread about my thoughts on Liah, Shador Logoth, Balefire and LOC and Liah, Shadar Logoth, Balefire and ACOS.

 

The Min stuff...like I said, a lot of ways it can be looked at. Balefire for Mat and Darkhounds, Balefire for Min and Semi = Mat has the slobber, Min has the marks. I just found that interesting.

 

 

Fish

[Terez]

Thanks to all the kind words above and a couple of those balefire numeric breakdowns are really interesting to look at. Ive had some terrible blows recently, which is why I can't post as much, but I read it all and this Board has always helped get me through the tough times.

 

I wasn't really upset with anyone (Terez) - I just am not used to today's accepted debating style chock full of innuendo, snideness, sarcasm and such.

Yet your posts are full of it, regardless of what you intend. It was extremely condescending of you to make the comment about 'RJ isn't perfect', for example, not just because you were wrong about that particular point, but also (and especially) because you were implying that we thought otherwise, when as far as I could see, there was nothing in the thread up to that point to indicate any such thing.

 

But thats my bad, not hers. She does a great job with all of it and she is great at the quotes - very befitting of her chosen 'Title' lol ;) Her index of interviews pertaining to WOT is AWESOME. I think, as she said, we were just misunderstanding each other.

I think we still are. No offense; just thought you might want to be aware that your posting style has some offensive quirks. Some probably don't care, but there are probably many who do. I'm just one of the few...undiplomatic?...enough to say anything about it.

[Bluedust9]

I hate Fisher King posts.

[Hadilmir]

The Min stuff...like I said, a lot of ways it can be looked at. Balefire for Mat and Darkhounds, Balefire for Min and Semi = Mat has the slobber, Min has the marks. I just found that interesting.

 

Ohh dear, I still don't follow how they're related in your mind... mayhaps I'd better just walk out on this one before I manage to get confused.

[mackoY-kun]

Ah, About Min's bruises. Rand made a very 'controlled' balefire, just enough to burn Semirhage and Elza from the Patern but not enough to reverse the event of him doing the strangling with Min. He probably just used a 5 second BF, about the amount of time for him to destroy the Domination band.

 

time

00:00 he touches the True Power

00:02 stand up and destroys the Domination Band

00:05 he turns around and balefire Semirhage with a 5 second balefire

00:07 balefire Elza