The Kin

[Terez]

More confusing is the lack of darkfriends amongst the sul'dam. There is no real percievable reason for that, yet it is the case.

I have always believed it's because sul'dam can only be sul'dam in Seanchan society. There is absolutely no opportunity for them to move up in the world aside from becoming a der'sul'dam, but at the same time, why would they want to anyway? They have honored positions - some of the most honored positions in Seanchan society. And thus you don't get the same ambitious/competitive situation that often leads people to turn to the Dark.

 

Suroth is sure there are DF sul'dam.

We know. She is also sure that they are rare.

[hazelkrs1]

those people who seek out a "healer" profession are most unlikely to be DF.

We do have Semirhage as a counter example, though. A desire to study the human body could be interpreted by others as a healer's-tendency, even if one is secretly a sadistic psychopath.

 

PS Despo, where's the fun in giving Luckers grief if you go around apologizing afterwards?

 

I know I know, but I feel like Luckers is doing what I normally do irl - leave himself wide open to attacks as he makes self-deprecating remarks, and I'm doing what everyone else around me normally does irl - launch in with fangs glistening with slaver. Makes me feel, ok I wanted to say it makes me feel dirty when in actuality it makes me feel really good, but I feel like I should feel dirty. That make sense?

 

More confusing is the lack of darkfriends amongst the sul'dam. There is no real percievable reason for that, yet it is the case.

I have always believed it's because sul'dam can only be sul'dam in Seanchan society. There is absolutely no opportunity for them to move up in the world aside from becoming a der'sul'dam, but at the same time, why would they want to anyway? They have honored positions - some of the most honored positions in Seanchan society. And thus you don't get the same ambitious/competitive situation that often leads people to turn to the Dark.

 

Suroth is sure there are DF sul'dam.

 

So Terez are we supposed to believe that you will come visit this thread and then neither confirm nor deny your involvement in Lucker's compulsion?!

 

/backtoontopic

 

Does noone else feel like the Kin pre-public reveal would have been more secretive and harder to infiltrate than the SS? I really got the sense that they weren't playin, and they didn't just rely on the oath rod to ensure member loyalty, they seemed a little more harsh than that.

[Terez]

So Terez are we supposed to believe that you will come visit this thread and then neither confirm nor deny your involvement in Lucker's compulsion?!

I'm not about to claim responsibility for Luckers' typing. It's atrocious.

[mackoY-kun]

those people who seek out a "healer" profession are most unlikely to be DF.

We do have Semirhage as a counter example, though. A desire to study the human body could be interpreted by others as a healer's-tendency, even if one is secretly a sadistic psychopath.

 

PS Despo, where's the fun in giving Luckers grief if you go around apologizing afterwards?

 

On the contrary, we can't say that "she sought out a healing profession". In the AoL, AS were put to use where they have great talent, not necessarily where they want to be. ( ie Messaana, wanted to be researcher but was made into teacher/instructor). Semirhage merely "acquired a "taste" for torture and "inserted" her desire in her profession.

[Luckers]

So Terez are we supposed to believe that you will come visit this thread and then neither confirm nor deny your involvement in Lucker's compulsion?!

I'm not about to claim responsibility for Luckers' typing. It's atrocious.

 

Words can hurt Terez. *whimpers*

[Terez]

I know. It hurts every time I see you write the word 'regard' with a u in it. Even the Queen's English doesn't do that.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

he may mean to guard again.

[Luckers]

Nah, i mean regard. It's one of my problem words (I'm dyslexic).

[Sharaman]

Contrary to Lucker's argument, one could suggest that the Kin were always a potentially useful force for the Dark.

 

This is not actually contrary to my argument--I agree the Kin could have been useful to the Shadow, I was merely laying out the logic that supported the Shadow not having tapped that resource--specifically that the nature of Kin's 'walk-small-avoid-notice' lifestyle makes them unsuitable for recruitment (under the policies and methods laid down by RJ), combined with the liklihood that were any of those put out of the Tower inclined, and brave enough, to seek the Shadow, they would have done so directly after being put out of the Tower.

 

Your assumption though, Sharaman, is that writers only put things into stories if they have narrative convenience, in other words if there's some impactful reason essential to the main storyline for that thing to exist then it will find it's way onto the pages. This excludes the possibility of authors putting something in for flavoring, or to help craft the cosmology or principles of the world better.

 

Or just because it writes itself in--which most authors will tell you occurs.

 

Luckers I wasn't clear. I agree with you that there aren't too many (or any) DF among the Kin - at least none that were in easy reach within Ebou Dar itself during ACoS. That's precisely because Ispan/ Falion had to torture one of them, which would have been unnecessary if there had been DF moles in the Kin. Since it would not have been illogical within the woT context itself for the BA to seek out Kin and turn them in DFs, I looked for an explanation in the context of the narrative convenience. Despite all the world-building explanations yada-yada, it would actually have been inconvenient from a plot-PoV to have had DF Kin around in ACoS, TPoD and WH. Elayne's investigations would not have held up for the murders, for one thing and the whole "gathering in the Kin" business in ACoS and TPoD would have gotten more complex. However, as I also pointed out, there is no reason why Brandon couldn't introduce them (or they may exist in RJ's notes) if it does make a material difference to the Caemlyn assault (or some other plotline) in AMoL.

[Mr Ares]

those people who seek out a "healer" profession are most unlikely to be DF.

We do have Semirhage as a counter example, though. A desire to study the human body could be interpreted by others as a healer's-tendency, even if one is secretly a sadistic psychopath.

 

PS Despo, where's the fun in giving Luckers grief if you go around apologizing afterwards?

On the contrary, we can't say that "she sought out a healing profession". In the AoL, AS were put to use where they have great talent, not necessarily where they want to be. ( ie Messaana, wanted to be researcher but was made into teacher/instructor). Semirhage merely "acquired a "taste" for torture and "inserted" her desire in her profession.

On the contrary, Semi did seek out a Healing profession. Just because Mesaana wasn't good enough to actually get the job, doesn't mean people were forced into jobs according to their talents. It just meant that if you couldn't convince people you were actually capable of the job you would be unlikely to get it. Sort of like today.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

thre's a bit in, i think the talmud, that says someone who becomes a surgeon could as easily have become a murderer - the inclination to cut a person up can be put to good or evil purpose, depending on how the individual with the inclination deals with his desire to do good vs his desire to do evil. and his grades, i guess. and there have been plenty of evil doctors in history.

[Terez]

Nah, i mean regard. It's one of my problem words (I'm dyslexic).

I thought dyslexia caused one to switch up letters, not add extra ones...

[Luckers]

Nah, i mean regard. It's one of my problem words (I'm dyslexic).

I thought dyslexia caused one to switch up letters, not add extra ones...

 

Yeah, and I catch most of the switched letters. This is more of a byproduct of how I catch words I got wrong--I do it by look, but that gets me sometimes when words sound the same but are spelt differently. Regard and guard being the issue.

[mackoY-kun]

those people who seek out a "healer" profession are most unlikely to be DF.

We do have Semirhage as a counter example, though. A desire to study the human body could be interpreted by others as a healer's-tendency, even if one is secretly a sadistic psychopath.

 

PS Despo, where's the fun in giving Luckers grief if you go around apologizing afterwards?

On the contrary, we can't say that "she sought out a healing profession". In the AoL, AS were put to use where they have great talent, not necessarily where they want to be. ( ie Messaana, wanted to be researcher but was made into teacher/instructor). Semirhage merely "acquired a "taste" for torture and "inserted" her desire in her profession.

On the contrary, Semi did seek out a Healing profession. Just because Mesaana wasn't good enough to actually get the job, doesn't mean people were forced into jobs according to their talents. It just meant that if you couldn't convince people you were actually capable of the job you would be unlikely to get it. Sort of like today.

 

I'm thinking that she already had a "taste" for torture and she chose that profession to satisfy her "taste" not necessarily to actually "help" by healing. Which is what I mean; to seek out a healing profession to "help", rather than to satisfy a certain "desire".

[francy]

Mmm. It actually does make some sense. Darkfriend novices, or those with such inclinations, would likely have turned straight to the Shadow after being put out of the Tower, which means they would not have been ended up in the Kin. From there, if you look at the way RJ describes how people come to be Darkfriends, it makes a great deal of sense that none of the Kin were ever recruited... consider;

 

Robert Jordan Answers: By and large, each cell of Darkfriends recruits people it thinks are likely candidates, though they need to do so very carefully, studying them, sounding them out slowly. Darkfriends are always on the lookout for new members, since they feel very much like an oppressed minority and want to increase their numbers. Once a move to recruit is made, though, either it succeeds or the failed candidate dies.

 

For someone seeking actively to become a Darkfriend, generally one begins by trying to attract the attention of those who already are Darkfriends. One fairly safe way is to let comments drop that indicate that you don't think the Light is all it's cracked up to be, that praying to the Creator seems useless etc. If this comes to the wrong ears, you might be in varying degrees of trouble depending on what country you are in and who it is that overhears, but you are unlikely to get worse than a flogging from the authorities and possibly only a stern warning to watch your talk from somebody in a tavern, perhaps accompanied by a clout on the ear. Although someone might decide to slip a knife into you in some rougher areas of some towns. It's only relatively safe. By the by, claiming not to believe in the Creator is a good way to avoid recruitment by the Darkfriends. After all, if there is no Creator, how can the Dark One be imprisoned, and if he isn't, then why hasn't he taken over and rewarded the faithful? One of the fastest ways to attract attention is to show yourself willing to kill to advance yourself or simply for gain. That doesn't mean that every strongarm who's willing to slit a throat to steal a purse is a Darkfriend. Some of those might well be horrified by the suggestion. This method has its drawbacks, of course, since if you attract the attention of the authorities first, you are very likely to end up with a noose around your neck or a trip to the headsman's block.

 

Now if you consider the way the Kin conduct themselves--specifically to avoid notice--then they would be exactly the type of people whom Darkfriends specifically rule out as potential recruits.

 

If you combine the two points--that those who were inclined themselves to become Darkfriends would turn to the Shadow instead of the Kin upon expulsion from the Tower, and that those who may have been recruited would be excluded by the nature of Kin's conduct and Rule--then it does make sense that there are less (or no) darkfriends amongst them.

 

More confusing is the lack of darkfriends amongst the sul'dam. There is no real percievable reason for that, yet it is the case.

 

 

I still think there could be DF's amongst them. From my understanding, the Kin is on standby, waiting to take women that are put out of the tower, into their fold. There is no reason a couple of those women could have been DF's before they went to the Tower for their training...

 

I can't imagine what the DF would want with the Kin - as its been stated here, the Kin are a fairly low key organization, so the DF would probably leave out of boredom or in the pursuit of power elsewhere. Still there could be a couple more enterprising DF's that would see some potential by remaining with the Kin.

[Luckers]

My point was that it is unlikely darkfriends would reach the Kin to begin with. Their power hungry natures, what led them to the Shadow, would lead them directly to the Shadow once a pass was given by the Tower.

[yoniy0]

I'm thinking that [semirhage] already had a "taste" for torture and she chose that profession to satisfy her "taste" not necessarily to actually "help" by healing. Which is what I mean; to seek out a healing profession to "help", rather than to satisfy a certain "desire".

I agree, those who pursue a career in healing to help others are much less likely to be DF. However, the filtering criteria in question doesn't relate to motives, only actions. And in those, Semirhage is indiscernible from other 'healers'. At least at the beginning

[Luckers]

Aes Sedai training in the Age of Legends begins at ten, so I doubt Semirhage chose her path via her inclinations, though no doubt those inclinations influenced her path.

[ZeshanHamdani]

I just read the scene in ToM where Gawyn takes the gateway back to the WT and is almost cut by the gateway made by the kin on duty.

in the end his messenger never reached Egwene that he sent back and the kin on duty almost got em killed.

the kin was sleepy, but I'm wary now.

[Terez]

It was the dreamspike that caused the gateway to close on Gawyn. Perrin brought it to Tar Valon just at that moment.

[ZeshanHamdani]

o yea, lol. oversight. ma bad.

[mackoY-kun]

It was the dreamspike that caused the gateway to close on Gawyn. Perrin brought it to Tar Valon just at that moment.

 

Wow, the things I miss. Now I'm realizing how much you people are 'enthusiasts'.

[Sharaman]

Aes Sedai training in the Age of Legends begins at ten, so I doubt Semirhage chose her path via her inclinations, though no doubt those inclinations influenced her path.

 

I assume you're referring to the Aiel boy in TSR whose memories Rand sees? Yes, the AOL tested for OP ability at age 10. But that example also shows there was no coercion about having to learn or to become AS, The AS could be roughly described as civil servants. Not everyone who was strong in the OP chose to become AS. In fact, taking examples of the Forsaken, Moggy, Balty, Ishamael were all strong OP users who didn't become AS or take up professions that involved using OP.

[Luckers]

Aes Sedai training in the Age of Legends begins at ten, so I doubt Semirhage chose her path via her inclinations, though no doubt those inclinations influenced her path.

 

I assume you're referring to the Aiel boy in TSR whose memories Rand sees? Yes, the AOL tested for OP ability at age 10. But that example also shows there was no coercion about having to learn or to become AS, The AS could be roughly described as civil servants. Not everyone who was strong in the OP chose to become AS. In fact, taking examples of the Forsaken, Moggy, Balty, Ishamael were all strong OP users who didn't become AS or take up professions that involved using OP.

 

All channelers trained in the Age of Legends were trained as Aes Sedai, whether they chose jobs to do with the One Power or not. And the vast majority were trained--some few who could learn would choose not to, but they were rare. Those that did choose training--which Semirhage and all the other Forsaken did (as, you know, they can now channel)--were taken to specific schools for those who were to be trained as Aes Sedai.

 

Moggy, Balthamel, Ishamael--all were Aes Sedai before turning to the Shadow.

[Sharaman]

Is this from the BWB? I know all AS could channel. But I didn't know that all channelers were asked to become AS.