Rand Kneeling to Empress (speculation)

[Sharaman]

I think Rand/LTT is trying very hard to understand how the Seanchan think. He's hampered by the utter lack of familiarity with the culture, either as Rand or as LTT.

I think he would be prepared to do what it takes to bring in the Seanchan in on his side with a few hard non-negotiable lines - specifically he doesn't like the leashing of marath'damane and he's not prepared to barter away the lands and rights of his allies.

 

But he's also hesitant not because of arrogance anymore but simply because he's uneasily aware that any gesture he makes to the Seanchan may well be interpreted unpredictably. I don't think he would, per se, have a problem with kneeling to the Empress but he's not sure what it would imply in terms of future relationships.

Since the Seanchan aren't going to tell him how they think, and nobody else on this side of the Aryth has figured out the culture either, he has a pretty problem in diplomatic terms.

 

As to the Prophesy itself, Ishamael seeded it in the Seanchan version. That doesn't make it any more or less likely to be real. Ishamael has a motive to cause confusion by seeding false prophesies. He is also a Dreamer with access to Dark Prophesies that the Light doesn't know. It could be either real or deliberately false. If real, it could also be, like other Prophesies Dark and Light, that Ishaemel doesn't have a clear interpretation of what it means. We've seen that, again and again, people have no clue how a Prophesy will be fulfilled.

[FarShainMael]

Oh, sorry, I thought that was what you suggested in your comment, that we only enslave those we don't consider to be truly human.

 

No problem. I intended the bit about 'refusing even to see them as human' to indicate just how bad slavery can get.

 

I tend to think it actually works the other way around.

 

Hmmm.........

 

 

...And now, back to topic!

[yoniy0]

As was mentioned above (a few pages back) Rand's kneeling before Fortuona was part of what made the future Aviendha saw what it was. She is likely to tell him that. I also agree that respecting others doesn't mean denying yourself.

 

Seanchan culture - with their practices of da'covel and damane - is part of the reason why he shouldn't bow to her; this is why I don't consider the above argument derailing. It's the same culture that would persecute an entire people to extinction because of a war their ancestors participated in.

[Suttree]

He is also a Dreamer with access to Dark Prophesies that the Light doesn't know. It could be either real or deliberately false. If real, it could also be, like other Prophesies Dark and Light, that Ishaemel doesn't have a clear interpretation of what it means. We've seen that, again and again, people have no clue how a Prophesy will be fulfilled.

 

Has this been confirmed?

 

The AoL was also an authoritarian nation. Rand spoke not at all about the culture once he got his memories in full. But his ancestors memories from the spires are quite clear. You stood in line, and were sorted for your task. The young women and boys of certain ages had no choice, they would become AS, live the Way of the Leaf, or become soldiers. Those not easily organized lived under the thumb of the AS.

 

Even people who could use the power were free to follow whatever vocation they wanted. The AS had a loose structure and according to the BWB:

"The sparse fragmented documents that have been preserved mention a worldwide parliament, or "council," of democratically elected officials. They also mention that within the government the ability to channel earned respect, but did not guarantee prominence. From this we can deduce that Aes Sedai were often elected to the council, and were influential, but were not necessarily in charge."

 

So no it really wasn't an authoritarian nation at all.

[AshaShan]

Exactly Sutree. And thats the main cause of my distaste for the notion of Rand submitting to someone from the 3rd Age. We're talking about the only educated and enlightened democrat in the entire world who isn't a darkfriend tossing aside all notions of ethics or morality and choosing to lionise a bunch of aristocrats and slave traders. Am I the only one who finds the very idea repugnant?

 

Hell, if an average joe from our own time tripped into a time machine and got sent back to ancient Roman I'd be quite happy to judge him harshly for not trying to educate the people he encountered there, and LTT by all accounts was not an average joe.

[yoniy0]

He is also a Dreamer

Has this been confirmed?

No. But it remains very likely, considering Brandon assumed Ishamael was influencing the wonderboys' dreams from outside during TEotW, which very likely means from that dark starry place Egwene goes to watch dreams.

[Luckers]

He is also a Dreamer

Has this been confirmed?

No. But it remains very likely, considering Brandon assumed Ishamael was influencing the wonderboys' dreams from outside during TEotW, which very likely means from that dark starry place Egwene goes to watch dreams.

 

To be clear, Dreaming is the Talent of having prophetic dreams, which is a different Talent to that of entering the Dreamspace (starry space, Gap of Infinity, whatever you want to call it), and again a different Talent to entering TAR.

[Suttree]

He is also a Dreamer

Has this been confirmed?

No. But it remains very likely, considering Brandon assumed Ishamael was influencing the wonderboys' dreams from outside during TEotW, which very likely means from that dark starry place Egwene goes to watch dreams.

 

To be clear, Dreaming is the Talent of having prophetic dreams, which is a different Talent to that of entering the Dreamspace (starry space, Gap of Infinity, whatever you want to call it), and again a different Talent to entering TAR.

 

So as Sharaman said in an earlier post is their any evidence Ishy is a Dreamer?

[Luckers]

Not direct evidence no, but Brandon stated there were dreamers amongst the forsaken, and I beleive he said at least one man and one woman, though don't quote me on that (I'm using my phone so can't double check).

 

It would make sense for ishy to be one. For that they are distinct talents they do seem to run in concert, and we have seen ishy's skill in the gap of infinity... And by the same note demandred has to enter the dream using a gateway indicating he is not a dreamwalker or even strong in spirit, so if I'm right about brandons comment about one of the male forsaken being a dreamer then ishy stands strongest of the surviving.

 

But no, no proof.

[Sharaman]

He is also a Dreamer with access to Dark Prophesies that the Light doesn't know. It could be either real or deliberately false. If real, it could also be, like other Prophesies Dark and Light, that Ishaemel doesn't have a clear interpretation of what it means. We've seen that, again and again, people have no clue how a Prophesy will be fulfilled.

Has this been confirmed?

 

ToM - the Dark Prophesies of the "book of the Broken Wolf" which the Light (and even other Forsaken) don't know about. Brandon's comment that at least one of the surviving Forsaken is a Dreamer. Ishamael is a most likely Candidate.

[Luckers]

He is also a Dreamer with access to Dark Prophesies that the Light doesn't know. It could be either real or deliberately false. If real, it could also be, like other Prophesies Dark and Light, that Ishaemel doesn't have a clear interpretation of what it means. We've seen that, again and again, people have no clue how a Prophesy will be fulfilled.

Has this been confirmed?

 

ToM - the Dark Prophesies of the "book of the Broken Wolf" which the Light (and even other Forsaken) don't know about. Brandon's comment that at least one of the surviving Forsaken is a Dreamer. Ishamael is a most likely Candidate.

 

But, not confirmed, no. And to be clear the existence of the Prophecies of the Shadow is not proof that Ishamael gave them. Those have the sound of Foretelling, not dreams.

 

Additionally didn't Brandon stated they came from various sources, hidden from the Light? Can someone who can access the Interview Database check?

[Mr Ares]

Exactly Sutree. And thats the main cause of my distaste for the notion of Rand submitting to someone from the 3rd Age. We're talking about the only educated and enlightened democrat in the entire world who isn't a darkfriend tossing aside all notions of ethics or morality and choosing to lionise a bunch of aristocrats and slave traders. Am I the only one who finds the very idea repugnant?

 

Hell, if an average joe from our own time tripped into a time machine and got sent back to ancient Roman I'd be quite happy to judge him harshly for not trying to educate the people he encountered there, and LTT by all accounts was not an average joe.

I love the implication here that the Chosen are educated and enlightened democrats. Vote Ishamael for peace, and the end of existence as we know it! That said, going back to the Roman Empire and trying to educate them, what do you think the reaction would be? Maybe they'd laugh at you and your strange foreign notions, and maybe try to educate you into becoming a good, enlightened Roman. Rand might come from a different cultural background to the Seanchan, but he was capable of appreciating that while he didn't necessarily agree with their policies in some areas, in some respects they were doing better than he was. Aristocrats and slave traders who were better capable of administering their lands than he was his own. Of course, that's no reason for him to go kneeling to her.

[AshaShan]

Exactly Sutree. And thats the main cause of my distaste for the notion of Rand submitting to someone from the 3rd Age. We're talking about the only educated and enlightened democrat in the entire world who isn't a darkfriend tossing aside all notions of ethics or morality and choosing to lionise a bunch of aristocrats and slave traders. Am I the only one who finds the very idea repugnant?

 

Hell, if an average joe from our own time tripped into a time machine and got sent back to ancient Roman I'd be quite happy to judge him harshly for not trying to educate the people he encountered there, and LTT by all accounts was not an average joe.

I love the implication here that the Chosen are educated and enlightened democrats. Vote Ishamael for peace, and the end of existence as we know it! That said, going back to the Roman Empire and trying to educate them, what do you think the reaction would be? Maybe they'd laugh at you and your strange foreign notions, and maybe try to educate you into becoming a good, enlightened Roman. Rand might come from a different cultural background to the Seanchan, but he was capable of appreciating that while he didn't necessarily agree with their policies in some areas, in some respects they were doing better than he was. Aristocrats and slave traders who were better capable of administering their lands than he was his own. Of course, that's no reason for him to go kneeling to her.

 

What Rand was capable of in the 3rd Age and what LTT was capable of in the AOL are very different things; what Rand thought of the Seanchan in previous books, pro and con, is barely relevant, what the LTT/Rand hybrid thinks is another story.

 

Search any culture in history, or fantasy, and you should be able to pick out the best and worst products thereof. Compare the worst of the Forsaken to the worst of the Seanchan of you like, they are both groups reprehensible. Of far more interest is comparing the best of the AOL to the best of the Seanchan, and IMO the AOL guys win with ease. Cultural relativism is a misguided concept, there is no shame in saying that modern day USA is superior to the Mongolian empire.

 

Of course, since Rand is likely to die soon his pointing out the flaws in the 3rd Age governments would have only slight impact, but that does not excuse him from the moral obligation to do so. I'll be dissapointed if he doesn't, and very dissapointed if he actually gives them his seal of approval by kneeling to the Crystal Throne.

[yoniy0]

what the LTT/Rand hybrid thinks is another story.

He's not a hybrid. He's the same Rand he always was, only with new memories. He always was the same person, even in the AoL. I don't accept the assumption that those new memories would change his perspective 180 degrees.

[AshaShan]

what the LTT/Rand hybrid thinks is another story.

He's not a hybrid. He's the same Rand he always was, only with new memories. He always was the same person, even in the AoL. I don't accept the assumption that those new memories would change his perspective 180 degrees.

 

A ten year old and a thirty year old can be the same person but the experiance and education that comes with those years can't help but change one's outlook, no?

[yoniy0]

A ten year old and a thirty year old can be the same person but the experiance and education that comes with those years can't help but change one's outlook, no?

Very much so. But those are experiences, not memories, and Rand's are his own. In his own words, 'this time he was raised better.'

[AshaShan]

A ten year old and a thirty year old can be the same person but the experiance and education that comes with those years can't help but change one's outlook, no?

Very much so. But those are experiences, not memories, and Rand's are his own. In his own words, 'this time he was raised better.'

 

Experiance and memory are intrinsicaly linked. Rand considers his time as LTT to be inescapably part of him, as evidenced by his conversation with Min and Cadsuane. Hes not 20 anymore, hes nearly 450. And those extra centuries were spent in a culture that was both democratic and sexually egalitarian. Do we expect him to measure those concepts against the sexism and aristocracies that are so common in the 3rd Age and decide that they, the AOLs, were wrong?

[yoniy0]

Well, I disagree, otherwise his raising would be moot. Either way, I expect him to focus on the DO rather than changing Randland's governments. That doesn't mean that he would stomach slavery, though.

[jcsalomon]

From my FAQ on the subject [a full list of my FAQ's can be found in my sig.

 

So which is it? Will he serve the Crystal Throne, or will it serve him? I've seen people suggest that the answer is both. The favourite method for this seems to be the Domination Band--Tuon binds Rand, then as the Band's control wavers he comes to bind her. Other's consist of Rand physically dropping to a knee before balefiring the hell out of her, and everything in between.

 

From what I've read, both RJ & BWS have been coy about what corruptions there are in the prophesies. My guess is that both lines (“bind the nine moons” and “kneeling before the Crystal Throne”) are bogus, having been put there to create an unresolvable conflict between the Light-side forces. (“You submit!” “No, you submit!”)

[Luckers]

From my FAQ on the subject [a full list of my FAQ's can be found in my sig.

 

So which is it? Will he serve the Crystal Throne, or will it serve him? I've seen people suggest that the answer is both. The favourite method for this seems to be the Domination Band--Tuon binds Rand, then as the Band's control wavers he comes to bind her. Other's consist of Rand physically dropping to a knee before balefiring the hell out of her, and everything in between.

 

From what I've read, both RJ & BWS have been coy about what corruptions there are in the prophesies. My guess is that both lines (“bind the nine moons” and “kneeling before the Crystal Throne”) are bogus, having been put there to create an unresolvable conflict between the Light-side forces. (“You submit!” “No, you submit!”)

 

The distinction between the two is that the 'Kneeling' prophecy is cited to a singular source (Luthair's copy of the Cycle) which all other sources, both here and in Seanchan were cited to disagree with. The 'Binding' prophecy, however, is just plain present in every copy of the the Cycle, no irregular appearence or comments that it had to be incorporated into those that lacked it... indeed, there is no indication in all the thousands of copies of the Cycle that any differ with each other in all the various commentaries on the prophecies, aside from slight translation differences--except the Kneeling Prophecy.

[FarShainMael]

Is this certain, though? We only hear about the 'binding prophecy' twice - once when Moiraine wonders out loud what it means (TDR6) and once when Rand says to Cadsuane that 'the Prophecies say I have to bind the nine moons to me' (KoD18). What am I missing?

 

BTW, I'm pretty sure the 'Kneeling prophecy' is indeed a fabrication.

[Mr Ares]

Exactly Sutree. And thats the main cause of my distaste for the notion of Rand submitting to someone from the 3rd Age. We're talking about the only educated and enlightened democrat in the entire world who isn't a darkfriend tossing aside all notions of ethics or morality and choosing to lionise a bunch of aristocrats and slave traders. Am I the only one who finds the very idea repugnant?

 

Hell, if an average joe from our own time tripped into a time machine and got sent back to ancient Roman I'd be quite happy to judge him harshly for not trying to educate the people he encountered there, and LTT by all accounts was not an average joe.

I love the implication here that the Chosen are educated and enlightened democrats. Vote Ishamael for peace, and the end of existence as we know it! That said, going back to the Roman Empire and trying to educate them, what do you think the reaction would be? Maybe they'd laugh at you and your strange foreign notions, and maybe try to educate you into becoming a good, enlightened Roman. Rand might come from a different cultural background to the Seanchan, but he was capable of appreciating that while he didn't necessarily agree with their policies in some areas, in some respects they were doing better than he was. Aristocrats and slave traders who were better capable of administering their lands than he was his own. Of course, that's no reason for him to go kneeling to her.

 

What Rand was capable of in the 3rd Age and what LTT was capable of in the AOL are very different things; what Rand thought of the Seanchan in previous books, pro and con, is barely relevant, what the LTT/Rand hybrid thinks is another story.

 

Search any culture in history, or fantasy, and you should be able to pick out the best and worst products thereof. Compare the worst of the Forsaken to the worst of the Seanchan of you like, they are both groups reprehensible. Of far more interest is comparing the best of the AOL to the best of the Seanchan, and IMO the AOL guys win with ease. Cultural relativism is a misguided concept, there is no shame in saying that modern day USA is superior to the Mongolian empire.

 

Of course, since Rand is likely to die soon his pointing out the flaws in the 3rd Age governments would have only slight impact, but that does not excuse him from the moral obligation to do so. I'll be dissapointed if he doesn't, and very dissapointed if he actually gives them his seal of approval by kneeling to the Crystal Throne.

Unless there are objective criteria by which it can be judged, saying modern US is better than Mongolian empire is just an opinion. I'd rather live in the modern US, but would the Mongol hordes? Rand has lived his entire life in a world that accepts kings and queens as the norm. Rand has no moral obligation to point out the flaws in Third Age governments unless he takes that obligation upon himself. How much of the "good" in the AoL came from governmental systems and how much came from their technological advances?

[SuperFade]

Democratic governments can be just as corrupt, inefficient, self-serving and blind to the desires of their people as Monarchies or other autocracies, with the added downside that their focus is often solely on re-election rather than actually changing things for the better. Studying for my history degree I've come to the conclusion that there is nothing inherently wrong with autocracy despite the stigma that surrounds it.

[David Selig]

How democratic was the AoL really? I don't remember much in the BWB about that. Wasn't LTT the leader of the Aes Sedai (and thus of the world in practice) for a really long time?

[Suttree]

How democratic was the AoL really? I don't remember much in the BWB about that. Wasn't LTT the leader of the Aes Sedai (and thus of the world in practice) for a really long time?

 

Here you go David...

 

BWB

 

The Age's system of government was both strong and responsive. Unfortunately very few details of this government or how it interacted with the population at large and the Aes Sedai are available. The sparse fragmented documents that have been preserved mention a worldwide parliament, or "council," of democratically elected officials. They also mention that within the government the ability to channel earned respect, but did not guarantee prominence. From this we can deduce that Aes Sedai were often elected to the council, and were influential, but were not necessarily in charge.