Basic Roles

[Nolder]

A Basic game will contain standard mafia roles (i.e. Finder/Cop, Healer/Doc, Masons, Vig, SK). There are no recruiting roles or complex roles used, and the mafia/town ratio will be consistent with guides found on the mafiascum site linked above (usually ~25% mafia/scum).

 

It is my belief that the above description of a Basic game is inadequate in describing what kind of roles a Basic game may and may not have

I also believe that it would be helpful to newer game moderators if a list of Basic roles existed to choose from

I've sent a private message to Verbal about how I think it should work but before the idea can really be pitched and reviewed it needs to be fleshed out and in order to do that I need to know what roles everyone considers Basic

 

my idea of a Basic role is a role that fits three criteria

 

1. Commonly Known

You can find this role most places mafia is played.

 

2. Easily Understood

The role is easy to explain to someone who is not familiar with it.

 

3. Uncomplicated

The role is not a modified or combined version of existing roles and will not cause massive amounts of confusion in a game. (ie a Mafia-Bomb-Cop that must reply to all questions with another question)

 

if no one has any objections to that criteria I'd like to use it to create a list of Basic roles we can all agree on

please post roles you consider Basic for everyone to discuss and I'll keep the list in the second post

[Nolder]

Town

Vanilla Townie

Cop (investigates one player per night and gets a result of innocent or guilty)

Doctor (protects one player from being killed per night)

Vigilante (can night kill)

Miller (vanilla townie that appears guilty to cops)

Roleblocker (stops other roles from using their powers (such as cops or doctors)

Tracker (can follow one player at night to find out which players they've visited)

Watcher (can watch one player at night to see who visited them)

 

Mafia

Vanilla Mafia

Godfather (vanilla mafia that appears innocent to cops, sometimes in charge of sending in night kills)

Traitor (vanilla mafia that appears innocent to cops and does not communicate with the rest of the mafia)

Roleblocker (stops other roles from using their powers (such as cops or docotrs)

 

Third Party

Serial Killer (can kill at night and has the win condition of being the last player standing)

[LilyElizabeth]

This link has good info on basic and advanced roles. It's where Verb directed me when I had questions.

[Nolder]

well I'm sure we can all agree on Vanilla Townie and Vanilla Mafia

 

I also think we can all agree on Cop (investigates one person and gets a result of "guilty" or "innocent"), Doctor (can protect one person from being nightkilled), and Vigilante (town sided nightkiller) so I'll add those to the list unless someone objects

 

but what should the definition of Godfather be for starters?

I usually think of a Godfather as a mafia that returns an innocent result when investigated by cops

but moderators often tack on other abilities to it

and is that "Uncomplicated"?

in a basic game I'm not too sure if "false reports" are ok since newer people will sometimes try to rely on the cop to get them through the game and getting an innocent result for someone who is guilty might cause a lot of confusion

[Sakaea]

In my Star Wars game, the Godfather appeared innocent, and had final say in the mafia's NK. There was never a problem with the appearing innocent part cus the cop got lynched day 1. But I definitely see how that could be confusing to newbies.

[Nolder]

hmmm I'm a bit disappointed in the response to this so far

 

but anyways

carrying on with our discussion of godfathers and false reports

I don't think it disrupts a game TOO badly myself

and it all comes down to luck whether the cop investigates the godfather or not

but if an unmodified godfather role is ok then I believe a Miller (townie that shows as guilty to cops) should be ok too

but with the additional stipulation that neither can be in the same game with the other as that at a minimum is 2 false reports in a game and that's far too much for new players I think

 

so I'll put those both up on the list as well unless anyone objects

[Nolder]

does anyone else have any additional roles they think are Basic?

[Sedai]

Well first of all you need to specify if the game is basic or a new player game.

 

In a beginner game I'd standard set it up for 12. 3 vanilla maffia, 7 vanilla townies, 1 finder, one doc. With a possible roleblocker

 

In a basic/standard game though things get tricky. I wouldn't include any investigative role except finder, and no protection role excepting a doc. You can play around and possibly put up a townie role blocker, mafia roleblocker, etc. I'd most likely put in a symp over a godfather because that role IMO is to powerful, because of the mafia's ability to communicate with each other. If your going to throw a miller in there that would be acceptable, but you'd have to bolster the towns numbers. The reason being is though even a townie is playing that role, it is an anti-town role, and dangerous. If the finder views them then they expose themselves, and a few other scenarios. If you have a miller group that can communicate with each other though that helps keep things balanced.

[Nolder]

Well first of all you need to specify if the game is basic or a new player game.

does a distinction need to be made?

it seems to me that any "basic" game should be suitable for new players

[Sedai]

I think so. Like I go on to say roles like miller, symp and godfather are basic roles. But for balancing, and playability they should not be included in a first time mods games, they also shouldn't be included in a beginner game.

[Nolder]

it seems like we're talking about several different factors here

---

new mods (never modded before)

new players (never played before)

 

basic roles (all roles that fit the criteria in the OP)

 

basic games (limited basic roles)

beginner games (unlimited basic roles)

---

what you're saying is [new mods] should only mod [basic games] but [new players] can play [basic games] or [beginner games]?

and then when the mod has gotten experience with that they can move on to beginner games (which are still simple but have an added layer of complexity)?

 

is that right or not? I'm a bit confused as to what definition we're putting on certain words here

[Sedai]

Basically, but switc basic with beginner and you got it.

 

Beginner is limited basic roles

 

Basic is unlimitted as to the roles defined here so far. Strictly that is. No adding or tweaking roles. No bastard roles. Etc.

 

New mods should mod beginner games, because the set up is there and its guidlines are strict. It's always 1/4 players are scum. And only one finder and one doc. A complete vanilla mafia also.

 

Semi experienced and experienced mods can mod basic games, where they can be more liberal with the roles.

[Nolder]

hmmm ok yeah I see what you mean

that might be a good idea to do too since right now "Basic" games are covering what we call basic AND beginner games

but before we pitch for that lets continue making a list of Basic roles for basic/beginner games

 

you mentioned symp (or traitor as I'm more familiar with it), would you consider that basic alongside godfather and miller?

I kind of forgot about it myself but I can see it being an option along side miller and godfather

[Sedai]

I'd definitely put it as basic, even more so then godfather. The variant of the traitor/symp role where even their coroner report reads innocent, I'd save that for advanced

[Nolder]

I added some roles to the list

please let me know if any of you have any objections or additions

[Sedai]

Lyncher should be a jester but other then that I feel all of those are basic enough roles.

[Nolder]

do you mean you don't think Lyncher is basic or that you want me to add Jester?

[Kivam]

Lyncher is not a basic role

[Nolder]

could you explain?

[Sedai]

do you mean you don't think Lyncher is basic or that you want me to add Jester?

 

Basically yes. And now that I think of it, Jester doesn't seem basic either. The role itself is basic, but what it

Does to game mechanics is not.

[Nolder]

I can see what you mean about Jester but I'm not really seeing it with Lyncher

[WWWwombat]

Lyncher and Jester aren't very common and Lyncher has a somewhat complicated win condition. Both roles can do very confusing things to a game. Imo, the only basic role that has a win condition separate from that of normal town or mafia is the SK.

[Nolder]

that's a good point

what happens to lyncher if their target dies is kind of a big controversy in mafia I think

ok so no Lyncher and no Jester

[Hybrid]

that's a good point

what happens to lyncher if their target dies is kind of a big controversy in mafia I think

 

That's why the Lyncher/Lynchee isn't a particularly good inclusion in a large setup. Better in a small game, e.g. Lyncher/Lynchee/Jester/Townies where the Lyncher and Jester are the anti-town factions, similar to Assassins in the Palace.

 

---

 

By "easily understood," do you mean just that the power is easy to understand or the proper play is also easy to understand? IMO, it should be the latter, since I view basic games as more newbie friendly -- i.e. training basic mafia skills and only using basic roles.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by Traitor. Symp? Or just non-communicating mafia? If the former (e.g. counts as a townie, but allied with the scum), I'd tentatively agree. If the latter, I'd say it's too complicated for a basic game.

 

Tracker and Watcher are trickier roles that are more at home in power-intensive games. I don't really agree with them being part of basic games.

 

There's also the question of whether or not to present the setup (or a couple of possible setups) at the start of the game. IMO, figuring out the setup should NOT be a major part of a basic game, so if the roles list is going to resemble what you've got, a couple of possible setups should be given at the start of each game.

 

The roles I think should definitely be on the list are below. The others, especially Miller and Godfather, I'm not so sure of unless setups are given at the start.

 

Vanilla Townie

Cop

Doc

Vig

 

Mafia Goon

 

Serial Killer

 

That's my two cents. Thoughts?

[Nolder]

By "easily understood," do you mean just that the power is easy to understand or the proper play is also easy to understand? IMO, it should be the latter, since I view basic games as more newbie friendly -- i.e. training basic mafia skills and only using basic roles.

I mean that if explained properly a person should be able to grasp how the role works right away without much confusion

 

and I don't think the latter is necessary really since there are advanced ways to play any role

for example a good powerless townie might be able to psych the mafia out into believing he's doc or cop

that's not something I'd expect from a newbie but it's something that takes time to get good at (if you can) but the role is still as basic as you get

 

I'm not sure what you mean by Traitor. Symp? Or just non-communicating mafia? If the former (e.g. counts as a townie, but allied with the scum), I'd tentatively agree. If the latter, I'd say it's too complicated for a basic game.

yeah I guess it's known as Symp (that's short for sympathetic right?) here on DM

I know the role as the Traitor

I can change it to Symp in the list if you want

 

Tracker and Watcher are trickier roles that are more at home in power-intensive games. I don't really agree with them being part of basic games.

you're right in a way

they are trickier and are better left out of games for brand new players

however I do believe they are basic and believe they should be available for games which are not "advanced" but not someones first go at mafia either

kind of a middle ground game if you get what I mean

 

There's also the question of whether or not to present the setup (or a couple of possible setups) at the start of the game. IMO, figuring out the setup should NOT be a major part of a basic game, so if the roles list is going to resemble what you've got, a couple of possible setups should be given at the start of each game.

 

The roles I think should definitely be on the list are below. The others, especially Miller and Godfather, I'm not so sure of unless setups are given at the start.

 

Vanilla Townie

Cop

Doc

Vig

 

Mafia Goon

 

Serial Killer

 

That's my two cents. Thoughts?

I strongly agree that figuring out the setup should not be a brand new players first concern

I like open setup games myself

it does take a little bit of fun out of it (I like trying to guess roles) but it makes things a lot more understandable