The Wheel

[Leyrann]

There are already threads (Dragonmount) and theories (Theoryland) about this, but I want to have a thread only for this part, not aside in something larger, as it is with those threads and theories. My questions are (related to each other):

 

"Is the Wheel good?

 

and "Is the Dark One evil?"

 

So why do I ask this?

 

The men are trapped in an endless repeat (there has to be a better word. But I don't know it) of all events. If the Wheel (not the Pattern, the Wheel) is broken, maybe there will be a linear time. With a Pattern, controlled by the deeds of mankind, instead of the Wheel. And if so, the Dark One would not be evil (except if you don't want a linear time), because he wants to break the wheel. Would he succeed, then there would maybe be a linear time. With real freedom. And then the Creator would be evil, because he made the Wheel.

 

It would certainly be a nice twist in the series.

[Kadere]

The Wheel has no consciousness. It's more like a computer. It's neither good nor evil. It simply does it's job.

 

The Dark One isn't just going to make linear time by breaking the Wheel. His goal is not to set people free from the Wheel, it's to take control of the threads and make the Pattern as he deems fit. He has a conscious goal in mind of, from what we can tell, destroying the world, enslaving it's people, and removing the ability to be reborn again in another age. So yes, he is evil.

[je3donut]

If his conscious goal in mind, is to shape the world in a way in which he believes, then how is he any different from any other monarch, or the DR himself? The DR has literally destroyed the traditions of c thousands of people, has forced the integration of many nations (despite the wishes of those who are already in charge), kills at will with absolutely no accountability to anyone except himself (sure he says he cares, but when push comes to shove, he does what he needs to do ) kills trollocs (who for all we know are just people who have not been giving the chance to have any other sort of lifestyle) indiscriminantly. The DO says he will destroy the world, but how is this much different from the DR destroying and exploiting the Aiel.

 

In fact, everybody seems to use the Aiel, if the DO had enslaved the Aiel rather than Trollocs, then would they have become evil? The question of whether or not one can be reborn in another age... why is this evil? Considering what the DR had to go through, considering how Birgette and Mat (yes I assume Mat is the new form of Birgette's lover), usually have no knowledge of their previous lives, why is this concept of rebirth so important?

 

The DO's methods might not be so great, but what exactly is his vision for the world? The end of existence as we know it... cause things are so great the way they are now? We know that the DO is a great manipulator. He 'chooses the chosen based on their greed', as almost any great leader will tell you, you use what tools are available. So all the things that dark friends say... are they a true reflection of the DO's wishes? Or does the DO let them complete his wishes with a certain level of autonomy?

 

What it seems like is a rebellion, where this DO is finally sick of the same rubbish over and over again, and realises he can't do anything about it until he breaks the whole wheel and rebuilds it. If you were the 2IC of an ant farm, and you saw that they just keep trying to kill each other, you'd do something about it right? You wouldnt leave them to make the same mistakes over and over again. You'd break the cycle, if you had to. IN fact, to let them just continue to nations kill each other for no reason except for man's greed, why...does this sound familiar to anyone else (US military....?) I'm sure saddam thought America was evil for trying to stop the cycle of violence in the Iraq.

 

On a side note, this may even lead to a dichotomy (light and dark side of the DR) theory. This last book especially has shown us an evolution of the series. Most of the characters now realise the consequences of their actions, and proceed regardless. Just like the Seanchan realised the dangers of those who could channel, and did something about it, just like how the Red s saw a problem with men who could channel, just as the white cloaks have a brnach specifically for questioning.

 

Good and evil are perceptions, not truths.

[Leyrann]

The Dark One wants to break the wheel, then reform it in his own perspective (is that how it's said in English?). Maybe this perspective means a world with something like a wheel, but then with progression, instead of without. Then the Creator would be the bad guy (by forming a wheel without progression) and the Dark One the good guy (by wanting a wheel with progression). Maybe Rand will help the Dark One receiving this, and as a reward for this, he will be the first to live in this new world, together with everyone he loves (that means: Elayne, Aviendha, Min, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Egwene, Moiraine and so on). Almost the same as the one I started this thread with, but just slight different, maybe better.

[Hybrid]

Arguments about whether or not Shai'tan wants to destroy all of creation aside, Shai'tan's a control freak. He's not interested in progress, because that would imply that some day people would be able to lock Him away again.

[Leyrann]

The world wants to prison him in, because they think a circular timeline is the only possible. If they have a linear timeline (and know it's better this way), then they don't prison him in. Who wants to prison in the good guy?

[Mr Ares]

Because the "good guy" would be actively trying to retard progress and keep the universe under his thumb for the rest of eternity. You want a vision of life under Shai'tan, imagine a boot stamping on a human face. Forever. The good guys don't want to stop Shai'tan because he's promising goodies of no more cyclical time, linear is so much better. The Chosen were bought with promises of power and domination (and immortality), save Ishamael - who signed up for the complete destruction of everything.

[Leyrann]

The Dark One is called the Father of Lies. It's not unlikely he also lies to his own Chosen. We don't know if he's evil. Yes, he seems to be, but maybe he has to be, to be able to break the Wheel and make the time linear. Maybe he will just go away and let people do whatever they want.

 

O, and maybe he takes away the OP by then, because there is no Wheel to be driven anymore. And then this world could become our world.

[rageofwar1978]

i think in many ways shaitan is meant to represent the elements of chaos and decay. much in the same way as some "primitive" beliefs pit a good brother against a bad one. one that creates the other to tear down. there are a number of creation myths that speak so. RJ has never tried to hide his interests in mythology and in some cases old religions so it would stand to reason that his interests would influence his works.

 

on the other hand though it could be possible that the dark one is simply meant to be a plot device in a way. an all powerful antagonist whos only real purpose is to be the invisible 64 thousand pound gorilla on the backs of the main characters.

 

as to good or evil that would depend i think a lot on whether RJ saw shaitan as a force of chaos or a force of evil. many things indicate both. the need to break the wheel and remake it in his own image though tends to make me think that it is more of a chaotic need to oppose the creator. not because he wants to but because it is what he was created to do.

 

to use a biblical reference. without original sin how would man have ever grown beyond what he was. in the same way the creator would not be the creator without shaitan, one cannot exist it seems without the other.

[Leyrann]

That's right. If there's no Dark One, why would you need a Creator? Or a Wheel?

[plague fiend]

If his conscious goal in mind, is to shape the world in a way in which he believes, then how is he any different from any other monarch, or the DR himself? The DR has literally destroyed the traditions of c thousands of people, has forced the integration of many nations (despite the wishes of those who are already in charge), kills at will with absolutely no accountability to anyone except himself (sure he says he cares, but when push comes to shove, he does what he needs to do ) kills trollocs (who for all we know are just people who have not been giving the chance to have any other sort of lifestyle) indiscriminantly. The DO says he will destroy the world, but how is this much different from the DR destroying and exploiting the Aiel.

 

In fact, everybody seems to use the Aiel, if the DO had enslaved the Aiel rather than Trollocs, then would they have become evil? The question of whether or not one can be reborn in another age... why is this evil? Considering what the DR had to go through, considering how Birgette and Mat (yes I assume Mat is the new form of Birgette's lover), usually have no knowledge of their previous lives, why is this concept of rebirth so important?

 

The DO's methods might not be so great, but what exactly is his vision for the world? The end of existence as we know it... cause things are so great the way they are now? We know that the DO is a great manipulator. He 'chooses the chosen based on their greed', as almost any great leader will tell you, you use what tools are available. So all the things that dark friends say... are they a true reflection of the DO's wishes? Or does the DO let them complete his wishes with a certain level of autonomy?

 

What it seems like is a rebellion, where this DO is finally sick of the same rubbish over and over again, and realises he can't do anything about it until he breaks the whole wheel and rebuilds it. If you were the 2IC of an ant farm, and you saw that they just keep trying to kill each other, you'd do something about it right? You wouldnt leave them to make the same mistakes over and over again. You'd break the cycle, if you had to. IN fact, to let them just continue to nations kill each other for no reason except for man's greed, why...does this sound familiar to anyone else (US military....?) I'm sure saddam thought America was evil for trying to stop the cycle of violence in the Iraq.

 

On a side note, this may even lead to a dichotomy (light and dark side of the DR) theory. This last book especially has shown us an evolution of the series. Most of the characters now realise the consequences of their actions, and proceed regardless. Just like the Seanchan realised the dangers of those who could channel, and did something about it, just like how the Red s saw a problem with men who could channel, just as the white cloaks have a brnach specifically for questioning.

 

Good and evil are perceptions, not truths.

 

Is the Dark One evil? Seriously???? Yes.... The Dark One has no conscious, would enslave everyone and shows no compassion. If, and I believe it would please him, he destroyed the world and all of its people/beings he would be content. The Dragon Reborn is trying to right the wrongs and prepares to save the world from enslavement. He's a sheepherder who has suddenly had the weight of the world thrust upon him and he gets baptized in the wrongs of the world and its people/Rulers. You said he kills with no accountability, but really he has to answer to every living being on the planet, himself and to the future generations for failing them. During his struggle to do this he is becoming what he is trying to destroy. Hence is struggle at Dragonmount. We know that Trollocs are a creation and by there own actions show themselves to be evil. The Dark One destroys the world... Game over for everyone. The Dragon didn't destroy the Aiel, he showed them what they had forgotten. They are responsible for there past and how they view it with regards to their future. In regards to your question about why is rebirth so important. Take a look at the religions in our society and ask yourself that question again. The D.O. is sick of the same thing over and over again, but not because of its existence. He is sick of it because it is not all about him and in fact offers resistance to this. The Wheel is a mechanism that keeps balance within the world, that's it. Neutral.

[Leyrann]

If his conscious goal in mind, is to shape the world in a way in which he believes, then how is he any different from any other monarch, or the DR himself? The DR has literally destroyed the traditions of c thousands of people, has forced the integration of many nations (despite the wishes of those who are already in charge), kills at will with absolutely no accountability to anyone except himself (sure he says he cares, but when push comes to shove, he does what he needs to do ) kills trollocs (who for all we know are just people who have not been giving the chance to have any other sort of lifestyle) indiscriminantly. The DO says he will destroy the world, but how is this much different from the DR destroying and exploiting the Aiel.

 

In fact, everybody seems to use the Aiel, if the DO had enslaved the Aiel rather than Trollocs, then would they have become evil? The question of whether or not one can be reborn in another age... why is this evil? Considering what the DR had to go through, considering how Birgette and Mat (yes I assume Mat is the new form of Birgette's lover), usually have no knowledge of their previous lives, why is this concept of rebirth so important?

 

The DO's methods might not be so great, but what exactly is his vision for the world? The end of existence as we know it... cause things are so great the way they are now? We know that the DO is a great manipulator. He 'chooses the chosen based on their greed', as almost any great leader will tell you, you use what tools are available. So all the things that dark friends say... are they a true reflection of the DO's wishes? Or does the DO let them complete his wishes with a certain level of autonomy?

 

What it seems like is a rebellion, where this DO is finally sick of the same rubbish over and over again, and realises he can't do anything about it until he breaks the whole wheel and rebuilds it. If you were the 2IC of an ant farm, and you saw that they just keep trying to kill each other, you'd do something about it right? You wouldnt leave them to make the same mistakes over and over again. You'd break the cycle, if you had to. IN fact, to let them just continue to nations kill each other for no reason except for man's greed, why...does this sound familiar to anyone else (US military....?) I'm sure saddam thought America was evil for trying to stop the cycle of violence in the Iraq.

 

On a side note, this may even lead to a dichotomy (light and dark side of the DR) theory. This last book especially has shown us an evolution of the series. Most of the characters now realise the consequences of their actions, and proceed regardless. Just like the Seanchan realised the dangers of those who could channel, and did something about it, just like how the Red s saw a problem with men who could channel, just as the white cloaks have a brnach specifically for questioning.

 

Good and evil are perceptions, not truths.

 

Is the Dark One evil? Seriously???? Yes.... The Dark One has no conscious, would enslave everyone and shows no compassion. If, and I believe it would please him, he destroyed the world and all of its people/beings he would be content. The Dragon Reborn is trying to right the wrongs and prepares to save the world from enslavement. He's a sheepherder who has suddenly had the weight of the world thrust upon him and he gets baptized in the wrongs of the world and its people/Rulers. You said he kills with no accountability, but really he has to answer to every living being on the planet, himself and to the future generations for failing them. During his struggle to do this he is becoming what he is trying to destroy. Hence is struggle at Dragonmount. We know that Trollocs are a creation and by there own actions show themselves to be evil. The Dark One destroys the world... Game over for everyone. The Dragon didn't destroy the Aiel, he showed them what they had forgotten. They are responsible for there past and how they view it with regards to their future. In regards to your question about why is rebirth so important. Take a look at the religions in our society and ask yourself that question again. The D.O. is sick of the same thing over and over again, but not because of its existence. He is sick of it because it is not all about him and in fact offers resistance to this. The Wheel is a mechanism that keeps balance within the world, that's it. Neutral.

 

And what is the meaning of life in the WoT? With a linear timeline, it is to make progress. What is it now? To do something you always did, and to be forgotten?

[plague fiend]

If his conscious goal in mind, is to shape the world in a way in which he believes, then how is he any different from any other monarch, or the DR himself? The DR has literally destroyed the traditions of c thousands of people, has forced the integration of many nations (despite the wishes of those who are already in charge), kills at will with absolutely no accountability to anyone except himself (sure he says he cares, but when push comes to shove, he does what he needs to do ) kills trollocs (who for all we know are just people who have not been giving the chance to have any other sort of lifestyle) indiscriminantly. The DO says he will destroy the world, but how is this much different from the DR destroying and exploiting the Aiel.

 

In fact, everybody seems to use the Aiel, if the DO had enslaved the Aiel rather than Trollocs, then would they have become evil? The question of whether or not one can be reborn in another age... why is this evil? Considering what the DR had to go through, considering how Birgette and Mat (yes I assume Mat is the new form of Birgette's lover), usually have no knowledge of their previous lives, why is this concept of rebirth so important?

 

The DO's methods might not be so great, but what exactly is his vision for the world? The end of existence as we know it... cause things are so great the way they are now? We know that the DO is a great manipulator. He 'chooses the chosen based on their greed', as almost any great leader will tell you, you use what tools are available. So all the things that dark friends say... are they a true reflection of the DO's wishes? Or does the DO let them complete his wishes with a certain level of autonomy?

 

What it seems like is a rebellion, where this DO is finally sick of the same rubbish over and over again, and realises he can't do anything about it until he breaks the whole wheel and rebuilds it. If you were the 2IC of an ant farm, and you saw that they just keep trying to kill each other, you'd do something about it right? You wouldnt leave them to make the same mistakes over and over again. You'd break the cycle, if you had to. IN fact, to let them just continue to nations kill each other for no reason except for man's greed, why...does this sound familiar to anyone else (US military....?) I'm sure saddam thought America was evil for trying to stop the cycle of violence in the Iraq.

 

On a side note, this may even lead to a dichotomy (light and dark side of the DR) theory. This last book especially has shown us an evolution of the series. Most of the characters now realise the consequences of their actions, and proceed regardless. Just like the Seanchan realised the dangers of those who could channel, and did something about it, just like how the Red s saw a problem with men who could channel, just as the white cloaks have a brnach specifically for questioning.

 

Good and evil are perceptions, not truths.

 

Is the Dark One evil? Seriously???? Yes.... The Dark One has no conscious, would enslave everyone and shows no compassion. If, and I believe it would please him, he destroyed the world and all of its people/beings he would be content. The Dragon Reborn is trying to right the wrongs and prepares to save the world from enslavement. He's a sheepherder who has suddenly had the weight of the world thrust upon him and he gets baptized in the wrongs of the world and its people/Rulers. You said he kills with no accountability, but really he has to answer to every living being on the planet, himself and to the future generations for failing them. During his struggle to do this he is becoming what he is trying to destroy. Hence is struggle at Dragonmount. We know that Trollocs are a creation and by there own actions show themselves to be evil. The Dark One destroys the world... Game over for everyone. The Dragon didn't destroy the Aiel, he showed them what they had forgotten. They are responsible for there past and how they view it with regards to their future. In regards to your question about why is rebirth so important. Take a look at the religions in our society and ask yourself that question again. The D.O. is sick of the same thing over and over again, but not because of its existence. He is sick of it because it is not all about him and in fact offers resistance to this. The Wheel is a mechanism that keeps balance within the world, that's it. Neutral.

 

And what is the meaning of life in the WoT? With a linear timeline, it is to make progress. What is it now? To do something you always did, and to be forgotten?

 

The same as with us. That said, it varies per person. To a lot it is to be reborn, albeit in another form, perhaps during another age, but it is a form of immortality. A linear timeline offers the same progress or lack there of, as the Rebirth. History has shown us that we repeat our mistakes even if it is scores of years later. Greed, hate and other wasted emotions are a constant in this world and the WoT. Even if the D.R. wins, and I believe he will, people in the WoT will repeat there mistakes and the Wheel will have to balance it out. "What is it now?" I can only guess, but it may be to have the opportunity to live again.

[jsbrads]

The Chosen are all a bunch of naive idiots, Ishy was pretty stupid himself, but at least he knew what he was getting into. He can rule the world, but only for the short time before DO gathers whatever powers he has to finally destroy the world and all people. DO isn't going to change the paradigm of the world he will end it.

When Bush freed Iraq, even I was very cynical, but slow but surely democracy blossomed, maximizing freedom and reducing pain. Do you know that fewer people died during the war than died by the hands of Saddam on a yearly basis?

[water_seeker]

i think in many ways shaitan is meant to represent the elements of chaos and decay. much in the same way as some "primitive" beliefs pit a good brother against a bad one. one that creates the other to tear down. there are a number of creation myths that speak so. RJ has never tried to hide his interests in mythology and in some cases old religions so it would stand to reason that his interests would influence his works.

 

on the other hand though it could be possible that the dark one is simply meant to be a plot device in a way. an all powerful antagonist whos only real purpose is to be the invisible 64 thousand pound gorilla on the backs of the main characters.

 

as to good or evil that would depend i think a lot on whether RJ saw shaitan as a force of chaos or a force of evil. many things indicate both. the need to break the wheel and remake it in his own image though tends to make me think that it is more of a chaotic need to oppose the creator. not because he wants to but because it is what he was created to do.

 

to use a biblical reference. without original sin how would man have ever grown beyond what he was. in the same way the creator would not be the creator without shaitan, one cannot exist it seems without the other.

 

 

That's right. If there's no Dark One, why would you need a Creator? Or a Wheel?

 

HUH? If I build a beautiful deck to enjoy my evenings on and my neighbor comes along and tries to burn it down over and over (or tells me I made it wrong so he wants to tear it down and make it how he thinks it should be) and I spend all my time trying to keep him from doing that, then my deck has (at least temporarily) lost its original purpose. I don't need my malicious neighbor in order to build my deck, he is not the reason it exists...In the exact same way the dark one need not exist for the Creator to create.

 

OTOH, the dark one DOES need the Creator to create so that he has something to destroy.

[Mr Ares]

The Dark One is called the Father of Lies. It's not unlikely he also lies to his own Chosen. We don't know if he's evil. Yes, he seems to be, but maybe he has to be, to be able to break the Wheel and make the time linear. Maybe he will just go away and let people do whatever they want.

 

O, and maybe he takes away the OP by then, because there is no Wheel to be driven anymore. And then this world could become our world.

Firstly, why would He make time linear? What indication do we have that he might want that? The general consensus is that He is lying to the Chosen - if Ishy wants to destroy the world, and the others want to rule it, someone is going to end up disappointed (and most people reckon it's probably the others, and Ishy has figured things out). Do the ends justify the means? He is using very nasty people, and encouraging them to worse and worse acts - surely the promise of freedom, or a linear time, is one that could inspire idealists to His cause, rather than just a bunch of mass murderers. And He won't go away and let people do what they want - RJ described Him as the ur-control freak.

 

 

That's right. If there's no Dark One, why would you need a Creator? Or a Wheel?

You'd need a Creator to create stuff - does that require someone to come around afterwards and smash up everything that's been created? As for the Wheel, you'd need that for time to progress. You break the Wheel, you don't get linear time, you get no time, unless someone imposes a system of linear time, and we don't know of any being with any interest in doing that, or anyone with the capability.

 

 

And what is the meaning of life in the WoT? With a linear timeline, it is to make progress. What is it now? To do something you always did, and to be forgotten?

In linear time, as in cyclical, the meaning of life would be decided upon by the individual. To live one life, to "progress" from one meaningless state to another, to do nothing and be forgotten ("I am Ozymandias, King of Kings. Look on my works, ye mighty and despair.") can scarcely be considered so much better than cyclical time. From an existentialist mindset, you make your own meaning so it doesn't really matter if you do so in a linear or cyclical environment. If you believe that there is an objective meaning to life, then that can exist in either linear or cyclical time, and if you happen to be of a nihilistic mindset, like Ishamael, well you can hold to your beliefs regardless of whether time is a wheel or a straight line.

 

 

OTOH, the dark one DOES need the Creator to create so that he has something to destroy.

I'd say that depends on whether or not Shai'tan's raison d'etre is to destroy, or whether His goal is simply the product of that destruction rather than the act - if He wants nothingness, or elemental chaos, He achieves His goal through the destruction of what is there but if there is nothing to destroy He already has what he wants.

[jsbrads]

water seeker, maybe the goal of the DO is not to break anything but to challenge people.