Compare & contrast WoT & ASoF&I

[Jong]

I like both series. But I do like aSoIaF a bit better so far.

 

As far as mysteries... I think its obvious that the WOT world is less mysterious than the world of westeros. RJ constructed the WoT world like an engineer. And he was not too shy about telling us all about how things work. There is a Dark one, there is a creator, there is a Dragon, there is a wheel, there is a one power and we know how it works. There are prophecies that play a major role in the stories. Some are quite elaborate but hazy and open to interpretation, others reflect what could happen, and many (in the case of Min) are very specific about stuff that is going to happen for sure...

 

Martin has not revealed as much about magic in his world. There are some prophecies, there are some "seers" but their reliability is much less well understood than in the WOT. We really don't know what is going to happen. We know who the players are... but we don't know who "the hero" is going to be just yet. We don't even understand the main threat and what that might be. The others seem pretty dangerous, but so far the civil wars in westeros and the free cites have been much more destructive. Other than the people at the wall, no one knows the others even exist, including virtually all of the north. And no one knows anything about them, their agenda, etc...

[Werthead]

i compare this to the "who are Jon's parents" debate in ASoF&I which is more of a side mystery rather than a plot driving mystery imo.

 

This mystery is more integeral, however. It could give Jon a claim to the Iron Throne, which could have huge ramifications for how the series ends and could impact on other characters who also claim the throne (i.e. Tommen, Daenerys, Stannis etc). Who killed Asmodean really wasn't that essential: it was 'probably' a servant of the Dark One who killed him for betraying the Shadow. There are no real consequences of that event, however, since Rand's OP training simply went to another source instad (I did have a favourite if unlikely theory that it was Aviendha or someone else on Rand's side, which I think would have been a nice subversion, but alas it was not to be).

 

Btw, there is no 'Targaryen bastard' theory ;) If Jon was Lyanna and Rhaegar's bastard, he has no claim on anything and so it would be an irrelevant plot point. The theory is that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married (Targaryens could have more than one wife) and then had a son. And that means there coukd be a septon or someone out there who knows more than they have been letting on, if the theory is correct.

[Suttree]

I like both series. But I do like aSoIaF a bit better so far.

 

As far as mysteries... I think its obvious that the WOT world is less mysterious than the world of westeros. RJ constructed the WoT world like an engineer. And he was not too shy about telling us all about how things work. There is a Dark one, there is a creator, there is a Dragon, there is a wheel, there is a one power and we know how it works. There are prophecies that play a major role in the stories. Some are quite elaborate but hazy and open to interpretation, others reflect what could happen, and many (in the case of Min) are very specific about stuff that is going to happen for sure...

 

Martin has not revealed as much about magic in his world. There are some prophecies, there are some "seers" but their reliability is much less well understood than in the WOT. We really don't know what is going to happen. We know who the players are... but we don't know who "the hero" is going to be just yet. We don't even understand the main threat and what that might be. The others seem pretty dangerous, but so far the civil wars in westeros and the free cites have been much more destructive. Other than the people at the wall, no one knows the others even exist, including virtually all of the north. And no one knows anything about them, their agenda, etc...

 

Solid post Jong, spot on and you summed it up about perfectly.

 

The clock is already ticking on how long it will take those few WoT clones to jump in with zero evidence but plenty of "Mystery Uhm.... don't see much mystery in ASoIaF. One or two things but that is all."(safe to say you are blind then) and "So again, what proves that ASoIaF has more mysteries than WoT?"(yes, we know despite several people drawing the blueprint you don't get it) and "In my opinion, the Wheel of Time series IS THE GREATEST fantasy series of ALL time. In my opinion, there has not been a fantasy series that even comes close to the greatness of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series."(Well I'm sure that poster isn't biased at all is he?)

[Jong]

I like both series. But I do like aSoIaF a bit better so far.

 

As far as mysteries... I think its obvious that the WOT world is less mysterious than the world of westeros. RJ constructed the WoT world like an engineer. And he was not too shy about telling us all about how things work. There is a Dark one, there is a creator, there is a Dragon, there is a wheel, there is a one power and we know how it works. There are prophecies that play a major role in the stories. Some are quite elaborate but hazy and open to interpretation, others reflect what could happen, and many (in the case of Min) are very specific about stuff that is going to happen for sure...

 

Martin has not revealed as much about magic in his world. There are some prophecies, there are some "seers" but their reliability is much less well understood than in the WOT. We really don't know what is going to happen. We know who the players are... but we don't know who "the hero" is going to be just yet. We don't even understand the main threat and what that might be. The others seem pretty dangerous, but so far the civil wars in westeros and the free cites have been much more destructive. Other than the people at the wall, no one knows the others even exist, including virtually all of the north. And no one knows anything about them, their agenda, etc...

 

Solid post Jong, spot on and you summed it up about perfectly.

 

The clock is already ticking on how long it will take those few WoT clones to jump in with zero evidence but plenty of "Mystery Uhm.... don't see much mystery in ASoIaF. One or two things but that is all."(safe to say you are blind then) and "So again, what proves that ASoIaF has more mysteries than WoT?"(yes, we know despite several people drawing the blueprint you don't get it) and "In my opinion, the Wheel of Time series IS THE GREATEST fantasy series of ALL time. In my opinion, there has not been a fantasy series that even comes close to the greatness of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series."(Well I'm sure that poster isn't biased at all is he?)

 

Thanks. I find it strange that the focus so far is only the mysteries rather than other areas. There is more to talk about than just the mysteries.... the characters in the two stories could not be more different.

 

In WoT the main characters are all pretty much "mary sues" and have no "real problems". They are all either super powered channlers or have some other extremely powerful alternative ability. I really can't think of any main character who is just ordinary. And I think it is safe to say that they are largely defined by their extraordinary abilities. Perhaps with the exception of Perrin and Lan. Perrin seems to be defined by his love for Faile, not by being a wolf brother. And Lan is defined by the loss of Malkier. What is Zen Rand's second biggest problem (other than the fact that the DO is about to break free and make them all dead?) -- that he still isn't as smooth with the ladies as Mat or Perrin? Or how he is going to deal with his 3 attractive, talented, and interesting wives when they all have to live under one roof? Or that the other Aes Sedai don't respect his authority as "Male Amyrilin" any longer? That his hand is burned off, his sword fighting days are over... Please. He has no "real problems".

 

In aSoIaF, virtually all the characters have huge problems. And most of the surviving characters (and I think surviving is the appropriate word) are defined by their disabilities and the trauma they have suffered to this point in the story. Tyrion is cursed by his own dwarfism and the associated prejudice and estrangement from his family(even before he killed Tywin and had to go underground). Jaimie is a broken knight, unable to wield a sword which was the only thing he was ever good at and is now trying to repair the damage his family caused in the various civil wars. Danerys should be Margery Tyrell but that life has been stolen from her by the usurpers. She is still a young girl, exiled and alone -- friendless -- surrounded by enemies. Cersei has destroyed herself and her family with her own unbridled lusts and paranoid inflexible world view. Robb, perhaps the best of the kings, was too naieve to see the betrayal plotted by his own comrades. Stannnis, having lost nearly everything, continues the brave fight while still unable to live up to the memory of his brother. Arya young noble girl is tormented by the trauma of her childhood as a refugee in war torn westeros and decides to become an assasin so she can get revenge. Bran another cripple. They all have huge problems, they are all tormented.

 

 

Aside: Going back to the mysteries angle... I think there are some real unresolved deep mysteries remaining in WoT. For example Fain and Shandar Logoth... RJ said a few times that there are other Dark forces besides the Dark One that can potentially be just as dangerous. We still know so little about what Fain is capable of and what his agenda is. Is it still to kill Rand? What are Fain's powers? What is his role to be in the final book? Also, there are I think unresolved mysteries about the Darkone' true nature and character. Apparently the Dragon and the NaeBlis / DO have fought time and again through out history.... And so far the DO hasn't won. While for us the reader this is the first time we are seeing it, the DO has been over this ground many times before. Yet some how he thinks this time it will be different. What is different this time? What is his plan?

[Mr Ares]

i compare this to the "who are Jon's parents" debate in ASoF&I which is more of a side mystery rather than a plot driving mystery imo.

 

This mystery is more integeral, however. It could give Jon a claim to the Iron Throne, which could have huge ramifications for how the series ends and could impact on other characters who also claim the throne (i.e. Tommen, Daenerys, Stannis etc). Who killed Asmodean really wasn't that essential: it was 'probably' a servant of the Dark One who killed him for betraying the Shadow. There are no real consequences of that event, however, since Rand's OP training simply went to another source instad (I did have a favourite if unlikely theory that it was Aviendha or someone else on Rand's side, which I think would have been a nice subversion, but alas it was not to be).

 

Btw, there is no 'Targaryen bastard' theory ;) If Jon was Lyanna and Rhaegar's bastard, he has no claim on anything and so it would be an irrelevant plot point. The theory is that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married (Targaryens could have more than one wife) and then had a son. And that means there coukd be a septon or someone out there who knows more than they have been letting on, if the theory is correct.

Stark bastard, Targaryen bastard, trueborn Targaryen, it's not really important as Jon has joined the Night's Watch. Therefore any claim he might have had on the Iron Throne is gone - he already has no claim on anything. Of course, a king or queen could potentially release him from his oath (Stannis has already offered to do so), but then said monarch could also legitimate him (as Stannis already offered) and therefore the question of him being true- or baseborn is somewhat moot. Hell, he could be a trueborn Stark and still end up on the Iron Throne.

[Werthead]

Stark bastard, Targaryen bastard, trueborn Targaryen, it's not really important as Jon has joined the Night's Watch. Therefore any claim he might have had on the Iron Throne is gone - he already has no claim on anything. Of course, a king or queen could potentially release him from his oath (Stannis has already offered to do so), but then said monarch could also legitimate him (as Stannis already offered) and therefore the question of him being true- or baseborn is somewhat moot. Hell, he could be a trueborn Stark and still end up on the Iron Throne.

 

Except that:

 

 

His 'death' in ADWD frees him from his obligations to the Night's Watch. In fact, I doubt the Watch or the Wall will be around much longer anyway. Stannis offered to legitimise Jon, it's true, but Jon refused because of his duty to the Watch. Since the Watch has betrayed him (from his POV), he is no longer under that obligation. In addition, Jon himself respects Stannis' power but doesn't seem to buy Stannis' own claim to the throne. Robb's letter of legitimisation will likely carry much more weight with Jon when/if it reaches him. As for the trueborn Targaryen thing, that will carry a lot of weight with Daenerys and possibly Aegon/Varys/Connington, if they come to believe it. It's certainly not irrelevant.

 

[balefired-ed2]

Sorry to take the thread away from the argument a bit, thought I would just do a little compare and contrast.

 

These series are very similar to me in that they both opened solidly, peaked in quality around midway through (ASoS/TSR-FoH-LoC), then suffered from bloat, mainly stemming from the authors penchant for describing every mundane detail which was a detriment to actual plot advancement.

 

They differ to me mainly in their respective bases. WoT is in general based on large scale myth, whereas ASoIaF is based loosely on medieval history.

 

In general, I would say that as I have grown up I probably enjoy ASoIaF more, but am starting to become disillusioned with it in much the same way that I was with WoT after CoT. Jordan was able to pull me back in with the much better KoD, and hopefully Martin will be able to do the same, although I am somewhat starting to doubt his motivation to finish the series.

 

Oh well, we will see what happens. At least now I have Joe Abercrombie who in addition to being a workhorse on Branden Sanderson scale also produces books that I enjoy immensely.

[Mr Ares]

Stark bastard, Targaryen bastard, trueborn Targaryen, it's not really important as Jon has joined the Night's Watch. Therefore any claim he might have had on the Iron Throne is gone - he already has no claim on anything. Of course, a king or queen could potentially release him from his oath (Stannis has already offered to do so), but then said monarch could also legitimate him (as Stannis already offered) and therefore the question of him being true- or baseborn is somewhat moot. Hell, he could be a trueborn Stark and still end up on the Iron Throne.

Except that:

 

 

His 'death' in ADWD frees him from his obligations to the Night's Watch. In fact, I doubt the Watch or the Wall will be around much longer anyway. Stannis offered to legitimise Jon, it's true, but Jon refused because of his duty to the Watch. Since the Watch has betrayed him (from his POV), he is no longer under that obligation. In addition, Jon himself respects Stannis' power but doesn't seem to buy Stannis' own claim to the throne. Robb's letter of legitimisation will likely carry much more weight with Jon when/if it reaches him. As for the trueborn Targaryen thing, that will carry a lot of weight with Daenerys and possibly Aegon/Varys/Connington, if they come to believe it. It's certainly not irrelevant.

Lot of assumptions there, Wert.

If Jon isn't dead, he isn't freed from his obligations. If he is, he happens to be dead. Now, I suppose Melisandre could bring him back, and then we have to assume that his being a Targaryen zombie carries any weight with anyone. We don't know how Jon will feel about the actions of his comrades (especially once they have a chance to explain), but regardless it doesn't free him from any obligation unless he's actually dead. As for the weight him being a trueborn Targaryen will carry with anyone, that remains to be seen - they might merely think it's interesting before moving on. After all, he's still a member of the Watch and will be until death. If they offer to free him from his oaths, it will be for the same reason as Stannis - there is something in it for them. And if that's the case, there could be just as much in it for them to legitimate a bastard. So, once again, a moot point.

 

[Werthead]

Lot of assumptions there, Wert.

If Jon isn't dead, he isn't freed from his obligations. If he is, he happens to be dead. Now, I suppose Melisandre could bring him back, and then we have to assume that his being a Targaryen zombie carries any weight with anyone. We don't know how Jon will feel about the actions of his comrades (especially once they have a chance to explain), but regardless it doesn't free him from any obligation unless he's actually dead. As for the weight him being a trueborn Targaryen will carry with anyone, that remains to be seen - they might merely think it's interesting before moving on. After all, he's still a member of the Watch and will be until death. If they offer to free him from his oaths, it will be for the same reason as Stannis - there is something in it for them. And if that's the case, there could be just as much in it for them to legitimate a bastard. So, once again, a moot point.

 

 

Good points, but they all depend on:

 

 

How long Jon is 'dead'. I've seen some fans speculate that Jon will stay 'dead' (or warged into Ghost or whatever) for some time and by the time he comes back the Wall will be down, the Night's Watch effectively destroyed and the Others overrunning the North. I've seen speculation that Jon will sit out TWoW entirely and come back as a POV only in the last book. I also doubt Bowen Marsh and the other assassins will survive: they'll likely be killed by the enraged wildlings or the other Night's Watch (especially the ones who went over the Wall and saw the Others themselves; Marsh didn't, hence why he doesn't buy the threat of the Others as much as the rest of the NW).

 

Whilst Jon's 'death' may be a loophole out of his oath - he comes back and finds someone else as Lord Commander so he's effectively out of the organisation anyway - I think it's more likely that the Watch itself will be destroyed, thus freeing him of any obligation to it.

 

[Jon Paul]

I'm a bit confused as to how Jon can possibly be a trueborn son of House Targaryen, when Rhaegar was married to the Dornish wench.

 

At best he's a Targaryen bastard, at worse, a Stark bastard.

 

Either way he's a bastard.

[balefired-ed2]

I'm a bit confused as to how Jon can possibly be a trueborn son of House Targaryen, when Rhaegar was married to the Dornish wench.

 

At best he's a Targaryen bastard, at worse, a Stark bastard.

 

Either way he's a bastard.

 

 

Targaryens are basically an exception to many rules that the Faith has set forward. They are allowed to practice both incest and polygamy, neither of which is approved for other houses.

 

Thus, if Rhaegar had married Lyanna it would be legal, and Jon would be a trueborn Targ.

[Clayden69]

I have only read Book 1 of aSoIaF so I can't really compare the 2 series, only the first books, I personally think WoT Bk 1 is by far the better book. aSoIaF just didn't keep hold of my attention like WoT did. I admit there were parts of the book i enjoyed, the final chapter with Daenerys(sp) was brilliant, and Arya is pretty cool. Eddard Stark's a fool and it just annoyed me reading his PoVs. Hated the Robb Stark vs Jamie Lannister battle. Was so boring for a battle scene, why write it from Catelyn's PoV, would have preferred it to be from Robb's PoV, and you could have seen him bricking it as Jamie cut a path towars him before being overwhelmed. IMO, would have been a much more enjoyable read.

 

I have Book 2 untouched, so far, I'm hoping for an improvement. The first book should grab hold of you and make you want to keep reading the series. Perhaps my expecattions were too high. I can honestly say I had never even heard of WoT before reading them but I had heard a lot about aSoIaF, all of which was good.

[Gentled Ben]

I have only read Book 1 of aSoIaF so I can't really compare the 2 series, only the first books, I personally think WoT Bk 1 is by far the better book. aSoIaF just didn't keep hold of my attention like WoT did. I admit there were parts of the book i enjoyed, the final chapter with Daenerys(sp) was brilliant, and Arya is pretty cool. Eddard Stark's a fool and it just annoyed me reading his PoVs. Hated the Robb Stark vs Jamie Lannister battle. Was so boring for a battle scene, why write it from Catelyn's PoV, would have preferred it to be from Robb's PoV, and you could have seen him bricking it as Jamie cut a path towars him before being overwhelmed. IMO, would have been a much more enjoyable read.

 

I have Book 2 untouched, so far, I'm hoping for an improvement. The first book should grab hold of you and make you want to keep reading the series. Perhaps my expecattions were too high. I can honestly say I had never even heard of WoT before reading them but I had heard a lot about aSoIaF, all of which was good.

 

Well, I was hooked after a Game of Thrones, but I thought the next two were better, and perhaps you will, too. It slows down quite a bit for the two most recent volumes, but I think the tale is just gathering itself for another great leap like in books two and three. Storm of Swords in particular held my attention.

 

I like WoT better, but so what? I found both series to be well-written and engaging. Each author enjoys some strengths that the other lacks, and that carries over to their respective works, but it seems to me that most people who enjoy one series also enjoy the other. It would not hurt anyone who likes WoT to sample Ice and Fire also. Most will likely be pleased, and the rest will at least be able to put their curiosity to rest, knowing that there are many other great fantasy epics out there for them. With me, for WoT, Eye of the World was only good enough to get me to read the next book. It was the fantastic ending to The Great Hunt that left me committed to finishing the series. Perhaps A Clash of Kings will do the same for you.

[Jon Paul]

Balefired, the only Targaryen I am aware of to have had two wives was the Conquerer?

[Guest PiotrekS]

I'm finishing the Dance with Dragons and I have to say that it is a good book and ASoIaF is a great series. I enjoy both series very much.

 

Since we're comparing and contrasting, it seems funny to me that we could still say that both series have some trouble with "late middle books", where pacing slows down considerably and lots of new characters and viewpoints appear. Winter's Heart and Crrosroads, Feast for Crows and the Dance?

 

One critical thing I have to say about aSoIaF - maybe more of a subjective feeling than a serious critique - is that I no longer care who will sit on a bloody throne in the end.

Most of the characters I liked are either dead or gone to such weird places that they do not really connect with me anymore. Especially the lack of any significant plot development in Tyrion's arc was frustrating.

 

Moreover, GRRM overuses the cliffhanders IMHO

 

[Suttree]

Balefired, the only Targaryen I am aware of to have had two wives was the Conquerer?

 

I'll jump in, Targaryen's have been know to marry more than one woman. It wasn't only the Conqueror IIRC.

 

 

The speculation has been R&L were married making Jon trueborn.

 

[Clayden69]

Well, I was hooked after a Game of Thrones, but I thought the next two were better

 

yea a few people have said that the 2nd and 3rd books are better

 

and guys, how do u do the hidden spoiler thingy. lol

[Guest PiotrekS]

Well, I was hooked after a Game of Thrones, but I thought the next two were better

 

yea a few people have said that the 2nd and 3rd books are better

 

and guys, how do u do the hidden spoiler thingy. lol

 

You write:[spoiler.] at the beginning and [/spoiler.] at the end (without the dots)

[balefired-ed2]

Balefired, the only Targaryen I am aware of to have had two wives was the Conquerer?

 

 

I'm pretty sure that polygamy is accepted, but the only name that I am relatively sure of is Baelor who married his sisters and then locked them up in a tower.

 

I could be wrong, so if there is anyone out there with more knowlege than I please correct/confirm this.

[Jon Paul]

Hm, okay.

 

Well saying they were married, the only possible witnesses to that marriage are dead (assuming the witnesses were the Kingsguard). The Septon is likely dead as well. So Snow remains, for all intent and purposes, a bastard.

 

And anyway, I don't think L' would have married R' when he already had a wife (who by all reports, he was happy with). The Dornish wench may have been fine with it (she was in on the whole PTWP thing I believe) but L' was disappointed with Robert for the very reason that he could never have settled with only her.

[Clayden69]

Well, I was hooked after a Game of Thrones, but I thought the next two were better

 

yea a few people have said that the 2nd and 3rd books are better

 

and guys, how do u do the hidden spoiler thingy. lol

 

You write:[spoiler.] at the beginning and [/spoiler.] at the end (without the dots)

 

thnx have been wondering how it's done

[Mr Ares]

Balefired, the only Targaryen I am aware of to have had two wives was the Conquerer?

I'm pretty sure that polygamy is accepted, but the only name that I am relatively sure of is Baelor who married his sisters and then locked them up in a tower.

As far as I can recall, Baelor only married Daena. However, Maegor the Cruel had several wives, and Martin did confirm that some of them were contemporaneous.

[Joshua Hendrickson]

Apples and oranges. I like both WOT and ASOIAF for their individual qualities. They aren't really that much alike. Speaking as a writer currently working on my own epic fantasy, which is definitely nothing like either WOT or ASOIAF, this kind of comparative nitpicking amongst readers is a bit saddening. Should I one day have fans of my own work, I would hope that they would not compare my TO DEFY THE WALL to WOT or ASOIAF or THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN or GORMENGHAST or THE LORD OF THE RINGS. Individual novels from individual writers working from individual visions for individual purposes--that's what it comes down to. Besides, as the great graphic novelist Alan Moore has said, "All stories are true." Yes, they are. And apples and oranges both taste good.

[Werthead]

Balefired, the only Targaryen I am aware of to have had two wives was the Conquerer?

 

Aegon and Maegor are the only ones we know that had two or more wives. However, the polygamy and incest of the Targs was one of the reasons for the Faith Militan Uprising after Aegon I's death, and Jaehaerys cut a deal with the Faith which resulted in the Faith being disarmed. We don't know what the Targs gave up, though incest continued to be practiced frequently afterwards, so the fan speculation is that Jaehaerys agreed to informally abandon polygamy as a sop to the Faith.

 

Notably, Aegon IV had one wife and nine mistresses, whom he maintained at court, but didn't marry any more than just his sister Naerys, so by that time polygamy had died out. However, as long as it hadn't formally been abandoned in law by the Targs, Rhaegar would still be able to marry Lyanna as well as Elia.

[Hybrid]

I need to get my hands on ADWD so I can click on these spoilers.