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Werthead

Compare & contrast WoT & ASoF&I

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So you compared the two by listing a bunch of smaller mysteries in ASoIaF to the smaller mysteries Sam pointed out are in WoT. You claim ASoIaF has "many more deep rooted mysteries that stretch across the whole story arc," and yet the ones you listed are no more deep than the ones Sam listed are in WoT. So where are these "many more"? You go on to say there is "no comparison" despite a) comparing the two and b) not showing at all that one has more than the other or why this makes one superior.

 

Yes because I was pointing out that if you included the types of things he was mentioning in aSoIaF it makes the disparity even more pronounced, hence no comparison(you know its a figure of speech, not sure why you keep latching on to this). Take off the WoT tinted shades for a second and look at it objectively, even go back to CoT if you want, it goes without saying that aSoIaF runs away with that category. Of course it doesn't mean either is better, diff people like diff things...

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So you compared the two by listing a bunch of smaller mysteries in ASoIaF to the smaller mysteries Sam pointed out are in WoT. You claim ASoIaF has "many more deep rooted mysteries that stretch across the whole story arc," and yet the ones you listed are no more deep than the ones Sam listed are in WoT. So where are these "many more"? You go on to say there is "no comparison" despite a) comparing the two and b) not showing at all that one has more than the other or why this makes one superior.

 

Yes because I was pointing out that if you included the types of things he was mentioning in aSoIaF it makes the disparity even more pronounced, hence no comparison(you know its a figure of speech, not sure why you keep latching on to this). Take off the WoT tinted shades for a second and look at it objectively, even go back to CoT if you want, it goes without saying that aSoIaF runs away with that category. Of course it doesn't mean either is better, diff people like diff things...

 

How does it run away with that category? More mysteries have been answered in WoT, yes, but how does ASoIaF run away with that category? WoT has a TON of mysteries throughout it's series. Mysteries like: Is Rand the Dragon Reborn, why does Rand have Lews Therin's voices in his head, will Perrin ever learn to control the wolf inside him and master the wolf dream, is the future Aviendha saw going to take place, who is the daughter of the nine moons, will Egwene become the Amyrlin Seat, will she unite the Tower, what's Taim up to, where's Logain, where's Demandred, will Rand gain the Aiel, will Perrin choose the falcon or the hawk, how will Rand bind the Nine Moons to him, will the Seanchan stay or leave, what's Machin Shin's relationship to Mashadar, what started the Breaking, why won't the Seals hold, how will Rand patch the Bore, will Rand choose one of his girls or all three, will Elayne gain the thrones of both Andor and Cairhein, will Rand die at the last battle, what role will his connection to Moridin play, how will Mat rescue Moiraine from the Tower, what role will Moiraine play with Rand, how will Cadsuane teach Rand how to cry and laugh again, etc. etc. etc. etc.

 

I barely scratched the surface with all that, I could go on for days or weeks listing them all. Now you might say a lot of those have been answered, and you know what? They have. That was Sam's point. We're farther along in WoT so a lot of the big mysteries (like Mat saving Moiraine, and Perrin choosing the Hammer) have taken place. And plenty of MAJOR mysteries, "deeply rooted mysteries" are still up in the air at this point with a book to go.

 

So back to your point, why does ASoIaF run away with this category? Both series have tons of mysteries throughout them. Why is ASoIaF's mysteries better to the point that it "runs away with this category"?

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Mysteries like: Is Rand the Dragon Reborn: Was that even a question once you got half way through tEoTW?

why does Rand have Lews Therin's voices in his head? Taint induced madness, don't think anyone ever questioned that.

will Perrin ever learn to control the wolf inside him and master the wolf dream: An internal struggle isn't a mystery.

 

is the future Aviendha saw going to take place: A few chapters in ToM, come on Kadere, know you can do better than this. You could take any dream, prophecy etc and ask the same?

will Egwene become the Amyrlin Seat: Yes because she was forced into it, there was no lead up and no one questioned it before it happened.

 

will she unite the Tower: Plot line not a mystery.

what's Taim up to,where's Logain, where's Demandred: Out of the three Demandred is the only one I would call a mystery that has spanned the whole story arc.

will Rand gain the Aiel: Considering the whole people of the dragon, don't think that was ever really in question.

 

will Perrin choose the falcon or the hawk: Since he showed a preference for Faile early on not sure why you would ask.

will the Seanchan stay or leave: Where would they go, their homeland is in chaos.

what's Machin Shin's relationship to Mashadar: Are we sure there is one? Fan theories aren't really what we are talking about.

 

what started the Breaking: Never in question, the DO's counterstrike that caused male AS to go mad. We are told this from the start.

 

how will Rand patch the Bore: I would count this as one...although we didn't know his intentions until recently.

will Rand choose one of his girls or all three: LOL!!! Seriously?

 

I'll stop there as you should get my point. The majority of your examples don't really hold up under much scrutiny. In addition we have had most of the answers for quite some time, very early in the story arc. The exact opposite is true with aSoIaF thus bolstering my point even further.

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I'll stop there as you should get my point. The majority of your examples don't really hold up under much scrutiny. In addition we have had most of the answers for quite some time, very early in the story arc. The exact opposite is true with aSoIaF thus bolstering my point even further.

 

What point has it bolstered? All you've proven is that you're stubborn about what you consider to be a mystery. Everything I listed is a mystery to the reader until it happens. None of the mysteries in ASoIaF you've pointed out are any more important or deep the ones I've listed, in fact most are much less so. You've given them no "scrutiny" at all, you've just written them off as not being up to your standards of what a "mystery" should be. You've yet to provide any evidence, at all, that ASoIaF has more mysteries. And if you point to mysteries like Jon's parentage (sorry that's an internal struggle, not a mystery, and we've had the answer since book one) or Griff/Young Griff (sorry we already have the answer to that too, and it's a plotline), or the Shadowlands (there a land far to the East), or Greenseers (been answered) then they hold up just as well to any "scrutiny." We've had the answers to these and most of your other "mysteries" for quite some time. Your point, if you have one, is no more bolstered than before.

 

So again, how does ASoIaF run away with the category of having more mysteries?

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And if you point to mysteries like Jon's parentage (sorry that's an internal struggle, not a mystery, and we've had the answer since book one)

 

How is someones parentage, the answer being integral to the entire story an internal struggle? As for you knowing since book one please enlighten all of us. Millions of aSoIaF fans would like to know.

 

or Griff/Young Griff (sorry we already have the answer to that too, and it's a plotline)

 

Pretty sure we don't unless you know what the "mummers dragon" means...

 

or the Shadowlands (there a land far to the East)

 

and your point? who is Quiathe? who is the reincarnation of Azor Ahai and why are the shadowlands important to him? I can very well say Tear is to the south of Tar Valon but if I can tell you nothing of it's importance to the over all story it is a mystery.

 

or Greenseers (been answered)

 

Partially explained in DwD, but again if you have the answers on this one, including what their significance is in the fight with the Others you could make some money of at Westeros.org

 

We've had the answers to these and most of your other "mysteries" for quite some time. Your point, if you have one, is no more bolstered than before.

 

Simply not true, and as so many of your statements have been called into question I'm really not likely to come around any time soon...

 

 

Do you want me to add a few more, since you seem to know more than has been written in the books perhaps you could enlighten me.

 

Three headed Dragon? What is the significance of Blood Raven and the Raventree? What has thrown the seasons out of wack and how will fixing them help win the war?

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And if you point to mysteries like Jon's parentage (sorry that's an internal struggle, not a mystery, and we've had the answer since book one)

 

How is someones parentage, the answer being integral to the entire story an internal struggle? As for you knowing since book one please enlighten all of us. Millions of aSoIaF fans would like to know.

 

or Griff/Young Griff (sorry we already have the answer to that too, and it's a plotline)

 

Pretty sure we don't unless you know what the "mummers dragon" means...

 

or the Shadowlands (there a land far to the East)

 

and your point? who is Quiathe? who is the reincarnation of Azor Ahai and why are the shadowlands important to him? I can very well say Tear is to the south of Tar Valon but if I can tell you nothing of it's importance to the over all story it is a mystery.

 

or Greenseers (been answered)

 

Partially explained in DwD, but again if you have the answers on this one, including what their significance is in the fight with the Others you could make some money of at Westeros.org

 

We've had the answers to these and most of your other "mysteries" for quite some time. Your point, if you have one, is no more bolstered than before.

 

Simply not true, and as so many of your statements have been called into question I'm really not likely to come around any time soon...

 

 

Do you want me to add a few more, since you seem to know more than has been written in the books perhaps you could enlighten me.

 

Three headed Dragon? What is the significance of Blood Raven and the Raventree? What has thrown the seasons out of wack and how will fixing them help win the war?

 

I answered your "questions" with the same kind of glib responses as you did to mine. All you're proving here is, again, that less questions in ASoIaF have been fully and satisfactorily answered than in WoT because (drum roll) WoT is closer to the end of it's series and has thus answered most of it's mysteries. All of your questions will be answered in the next two, especially since most of yours are plot related and must be answered for the plot to continue. And since you've decided plot related questions don't count, I still completely fail to see how ASoIaF has more mystery than WoT.

 

I've called into question all of your statements, as you have mine. And you still skirt the question I've been asking. How does ASoIaF run away with the category of having more mysteries and leave no room for comparison?

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I answered your "questions" with the same kind of glib responses as you did to mine.

 

Except for the fact that all my answers were true and based in fact?

 

I've called into question all of your statements, as you have mine. And you still skirt the question I've been asking. How does ASoIaF run away with the category of having more mysteries and leave no room for comparison?

 

Have you been reading the thread? I said you can even go back to CoT and the vast majority of "mysteries" you brought up either never were an issue or had already been answered by that point. I never said "plot related questions" cant be mysteries, but there is a difference as you well know. In contrast virtually everything I have mentioned in relation to aSoIaF can be considered huge to the overall story and we have the answers for none of them.

Edited by Suttree

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Except for the fact that all my answers were true and based in fact?

 

Your answers were based on the book having answered plenty of the mysteries, which I said it had, due to the fact that the series is closer to being finished and has answered many of it's mysteries. And my answers to your mysteries were just as based on the facts within the books and just as scrutinized as you did the mysteries in WoT. There were plenty of mysteries in WoT we don't know the answer to that you couldn't actually answer without coming up with a way to skirt the question as not rising to your expectations of what a "mystery" is.

 

Have you been reading the thread? I said you can even go back to CoT and the vast majority of "mysteries" you brought up either never were an issue or had already been answered by that point.

 

Except Lews Therin's voice in Rand's head, who would save Moiraine and was she alive, where Demandred is, would Perrin master his wolf abilities, would Egwene unite the Tower, how will Rand bind the Seanchan to him, will Rand die in the Last Battle, how are the seals breaking, what role will Rand's link with Moridin play in the Last Battle, would Elayne become Queen of both Andor and Carihien, what Taim is up to at the Black Tower, etc. etc. etc. None of this bad been answered at that point and all were an issue.

 

I never said "plot related questions" cant be mysteries

 

Here's what you wrote.

will she unite the Tower: Plot line not a mystery.

 

but there is a difference as you well know.

 

I guess, but most of your mysteries from ASoIaF are plot related: Jon Snow's parentage (you said so yourself), Griff/Young Griff identities, Shadowlands relationship to Azor Ahai, who is Azor Ahai, Greenseers use in the fight against the Others, who are the three heads of the Dragon, what is the significance of Blood Raven and the Raventree, what has thrown the seasons out of wack, and how will fixing them help win the war.

 

In contrast virtually everything I have mentioned in relation to aSoIaF can be considered huge to the overall story and we have the answers for none of them.

 

We don't have the answers to most of them because we're not close enough to the end. We're only done with act two of the story, big answers don't normally come in a story until the final act. And virtually all of your mysteries are directly related to the plot and will be answered in either TWoW or ADoS.

 

So again, what proves that ASoIaF has more mysteries than WoT?

Edited by Kadere

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And my answers to your mysteries were just as based on the facts within the books and just as scrutinized as you did the mysteries in WoT.

 

How is that possible when not one thing you said was correct?

 

Here's what you wrote. will she unite the Tower: Plot line not a mystery.

 

Look I gave you examples of what I considered over arching mysteries. You know as well as I do that things like will Rand choose one of his three girls, will Egwene unite the Tower, will Elayne become Queen don't fall in the category of what we are discussing.

 

I guess, but most of your mysteries from ASoIaF are plot related: Jon Snow's parentage (you said so yourself), Griff/Young Griff identities, Shadowlands relationship to Azor Ahai, who is Azor Ahai, Greenseers use in the fight against the Others, who are the three heads of the Dragon, what is the significance of Blood Raven and the Raventree, what has thrown the seasons out of wack, and how will fixing them help win the war.

 

All of those above are integral to the overall story....and more importantly they are MYSTERIES. The majority of what you mentioned in WoT are plot points or even side plots. There is no mystery surrounding Egwene reuniting the WT. The plot will progress to a point and she will or she won't. How you don't see the difference between that and all the things mentioned above is just crazy. I'll give you Demy, the seals and the Moridin link but those are some of the few that are even remotely in the same category.

 

We don't have the answers to most of them because we're not close enough to the end.

 

So we only get the answers to your big mysteries, like is Rand the DR at the end? We knew after one book...who is the savior in aSoIaF?

 

It is 5/7 books v 11/12, the we aren't far enough along argument is total bs. The major players, the stakes, hell even what the war is all about is a complete mystery in aSoIaF! The story has progressed to a point comparable to the WoT at the end of KoD. All of the major questions about the story are still up in the air. The same can not be said for the WoT, it is plain for any impartial observer to see. If you don't get it, you just don't get it.

Edited by Suttree

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Suttree>> Your arguments are sounding a bit cyclical and fickle. First you say that Song has more mysteries than Wheel. We shown that false. Then you say well, Song's mysteries are more important to the story. We have shown that false. Then you say that Song's mysteries are real while Wheel's are plotpoints and not mysteries at all.

 

You keep changing your defense with each post as Kadere has proven you wrong at each step. You can't keep moving the line each time.

 

Look at your first list of "large scale mysteries".... Others, Dragons, Warlocks, Red Priests, Shadow Lands, The Doom, Maesters, R & L, Faceless Men, Bloodraven, Weirwoods, Greenseers, Ashara Dayne, The Sphinx, Griff/Young Griff, Euron Crows Eye, Children of the Forest

 

How many are truelly large scale and are mysteries? Others.... Frost Zombies, Dragons.... magical flying lizards that breath fire, Warlocks.... male spellcasters, Red Priests.... Male Priests of Asshai, Shadow Lands..... Lands to the East, Doom.... Fall of Valaryia, Maesters.... scientists, R&L (not sure), Faceless Men..... assassins, Bloodraven (not sure), Weirwoods..... old god trees with faces, Greenseers.... magic folk, Ashara Dayne..... wife of Mr. Dayne, Sphinx (not sure), Griff (not sure), Euron..... Crazy preacher dude, Children of Forest..... druids.

 

The ones (not sure) are because I haven't read DwD yet or I don't remember the referece.

 

All of these are unresolved plotlines. Which ones are hugely important and which are red herrings? How they relate in the big picture will become apparant in the last two books. So after Winds of Winter and Spring (whatever).... are you going to declare A Song of Ice and Fire to be a weak series because the "mysteries" have been solved? Because you know.... that's kind of what the end of series is supposed to do. Solve mysteries presented during the story.

 

The plot depth and intrigue is far deeper in Wheel than Song in my opinion.

 

 

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Guest PiotrekS

I haven't read your discussion in detail so forgive me please if I repeat something already stated.

 

I like both series very much. As for mysteries, I have the feeling that while in WOT they really come from a pre-conceived and consistent picture of the world and its rules the author had had in mind before he began the write the plot, in ASoIaF the mysteries are largely plot-driven and I don't really expect most or even significant number of them to be adequately explained. It seems to me GRRM just adds some things in when the plot needs it and does not worry too much about whehter they make sense in his world or not very much. I have mainly magic in mind which IMHO is written inconsistently in ASoIaF - does it work or not? If it works, it should have bigger impact on the world. If it has no impact, then it should not work. As it is, GRRM has created a world which works in large extent similarly to our medieval reality, where conflicts are resolved with cold steel, medicine is primitive - but on the other hand we are shown more and more cases of magical events! If they happen at all, shouldn't they have more impact on the way the world functions?

 

For me GRRM is the "people" writer. His characters and their interactions are absolutely great. Worldbuilding is interesting and colorful, but I have the feeling that I'm watching some set decorations for an interesting movie - there is not very much underneath, no main theme or world mechanics that RJ excelled in.

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I haven't read your discussion in detail so forgive me please if I repeat something already stated.

 

I like both series very much. As for mysteries, I have the feeling that while in WOT they really come from a pre-conceived and consistent picture of the world and its rules the author had had in mind before he began the write the plot, in ASoIaF the mysteries are largely plot-driven and I don't really expect most or even significant number of them to be adequately explained. It seems to me GRRM just adds some things in when the plot needs it and does not worry too much about whehter they make sense in his world or not very much. I have mainly magic in mind which IMHO is written inconsistently in ASoIaF - does it work or not? If it works, it should have bigger impact on the world. If it has no impact, then it should not work. As it is, GRRM has created a world which works in large extent similarly to our medieval reality, where conflicts are resolved with cold steel, medicine is primitive - but on the other hand we are shown more and more cases of magical events! If they happen at all, shouldn't they have more impact on the way the world functions?

 

For me GRRM is the "people" writer. His characters and their interactions are absolutely great. Worldbuilding is interesting and colorful, but I have the feeling that I'm watching some set decorations for an interesting movie - there is not very much underneath, no main theme or world mechanics that RJ excelled in.

 

I guess the whole theme of magic having been "dead" for thousands of years only to return back to the world during the events of the books (slowly) went right over your head then?

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He does have point.... does anyone know the fundamental rules of the magic in Song? The fundamental rules in Wheel are clear, while I can't think of any given by GRRM. Maybe he will expand on it later?

 

P.S> Magic wasn't dead for thousands of years. It oly was fading due to the death of the last dragon.... roughly 300 years before booktime?

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He does have point.... does anyone know the fundamental rules of the magic in Song? The fundamental rules in Wheel are clear, while I can't think of any given by GRRM. Maybe he will expand on it later?

 

P.S> Magic wasn't dead for thousands of years. It oly was fading due to the death of the last dragon.... roughly 300 years before booktime?

 

A thousand years, 300 years, details! Details I say!

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He does have point.... does anyone know the fundamental rules of the magic in Song? The fundamental rules in Wheel are clear, while I can't think of any given by GRRM. Maybe he will expand on it later?

 

P.S> Magic wasn't dead for thousands of years. It oly was fading due to the death of the last dragon.... roughly 300 years before booktime?

 

A thousand years, 300 years, details! Details I say!

 

"Therin the Devil lies." -- Yoda

 

:happy:

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He does have point.... does anyone know the fundamental rules of the magic in Song? The fundamental rules in Wheel are clear, while I can't think of any given by GRRM. Maybe he will expand on it later?

 

P.S> Magic wasn't dead for thousands of years. It oly was fading due to the death of the last dragon.... roughly 300 years before booktime?

 

A thousand years, 300 years, details! Details I say!

 

"Therin the Devil lies." -- Yoda

 

:happy:

 

I refuse to take advice from puppets.

 

Is that racist?

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Suttree>> Your arguments are sounding a bit cyclical and fickle. First you say that Song has more mysteries than Wheel. We shown that false. Then you say well, Song's mysteries are more important to the story. We have shown that false.

 

First off I love when people make claims such as this. You have proven nothing of the sort on either count. Please show where "you" have proven anything, let alone Kadere. "Major Mysteries" integral to the overall story arc are what I have been discussing from the start. Egwene uniting the tower, which woman will Rand choose, and will Elayne become Queen do not qualify. Out of all the ones Kadere provided very few fit the bill and most were answered in the early books.

 

You keep changing your defense with each post as Kadere has proven you wrong at each step. You can't keep moving the line each time.

 

You reading and comprehension is sorely lacking.

 

Look at your first list of "large scale mysteries".... Others, Dragons, Warlocks, Red Priests, Shadow Lands, The Doom, Maesters, R & L, Faceless Men, Bloodraven, Weirwoods, Greenseers, Ashara Dayne, The Sphinx, Griff/Young Griff, Euron Crows Eye, Children of the Forest

 

I'm glad this was your next point as it shows how far off you are from understanding what is actually being said in this thread. Far from examples of "large scale mysteries" (although some actually would qualify) I clearly said "The rest is just picking out questions you may have. If you did that with aSoIaF you would go on for days." and then went on to provide the list you quote above.

 

How many are truelly large scale and are mysteries? Others.... Frost Zombies, Dragons.... magical flying lizards that breath fire, Warlocks.... male spellcasters, Red Priests.... Male Priests of Asshai, Shadow Lands..... Lands to the East, Doom.... Fall of Valaryia, Maesters.... scientists, R&L (not sure), Faceless Men..... assassins, Bloodraven (not sure), Weirwoods..... old god trees with faces, Greenseers.... magic folk, Ashara Dayne..... wife of Mr. Dayne, Sphinx (not sure), Griff (not sure), Euron..... Crazy preacher dude, Children of Forest..... druids.

 

Have you or Kadere even read aSoIaF I wonder? Most of your answers are flat out wrong(Frost zombies, male priests, druids :rolleyes:) and where they aren't totally off you give a very small percentage of their actual meaning. Not understanding how most of them are integral to the overall story plainly shows you don't understand in the slightest what is going on in Mr. Martin's novels.

 

are you going to declare A Song of Ice and Fire to be a weak series because the "mysteries" have been solved?

 

Again never once have I said either series is better. Not sure why you or Kadere have both tried to attribute that to me but I would prefer for both of you not to put words in my mouth.

 

The plot depth and intrigue is far deeper in Wheel than Song in my opinion.

 

So it took a little while but the fanboism finally comes out. So what you both meant when falsely accusing me of saying aSoIaF is better is YOU think WoT is better and were all defensive that someone else might have a different opinion. As I said earlier people like different things. I came to the WoT at a very early age and it was my favorite series. I do wonder if it would have had the same impact if I had started reading later in life. While RJ's attention to detail is second to none, he handles many themes in a very juvenile fashion and his characters are fairly black and white. Mr. Martin's world is much more realistic, it's characters shades of grey and the political intrigue far surpasses anything in the WoT. With only two books to go many of the largest issues remain unresolved. We don't know who the enemy or savior actually is, we don't know why this seasonal war is being fought, we don't know whose side most people are on. This trickles down to the smaller details and characters making a large number of mysteries that are all crucial to understanding the overall whole. Neither of you really seem to understand this but I would hope you would both start a reread as you are missing out on most of what makes the series great.

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How is that possible when not one thing you said was correct?

 

Every answer I gave you was correct.

 

Look I gave you examples of what I considered over arching mysteries. You know as well as I do that things like will Rand choose one of his three girls, will Egwene unite the Tower, will Elayne become Queen don't fall in the category of what we are discussing.

 

Rand choosing one or all of his girls was a mystery from book 1 to book 9, that's over half the series, glad you knew the answer before you read them. Egwene uniting the Tower was a mystery from book 6 to book 12 almost half the series, again glad you somehow knew the answer. Elayne becoming a Queen was a mystery from book 1 to book 13, basically the ENTIRE series, glad you somehow knew the answer before you read them.

 

All of those above are integral to the overall story....and more importantly they are MYSTERIES. The majority of what you mentioned in WoT are plot points or even side plots. There is no mystery surrounding Egwene reuniting the WT. The plot will progress to a point and she will or she won't. How you don't see the difference between that and all the things mentioned above is just crazy. I'll give you Demy, the seals and the Moridin link but those are some of the few that are even remotely in the same category.

 

If all these mysteries are so integral to the overall story, it means their integral to the plot, correct? We will either find out who Jon's parents are, or we won't. Griff/Young Griff's identities have to be confirmed in order for their plotline to continue, so we'll either learn them or we won't. Azor Ahai has to come back, unless he's not actually integral to the overall story so we have to learn his identity and relationship to the Shadowlands, or we won't. If the Greenseers are actually important to the overall story we'll see how they'll fight the Others. We have to learn who the three heads of the dragon are because... oh right, it probably integral to the story so we will or we won't. We'll learn more about Blood Raven because he's kinda there talking to Bran now, and if we don't it's not very integral to the story. What's thrown the seasons out of wack is very much integral to the story so we'll learn it or we won't and if they effect the war we'll see if they do or not. All of these are plotlines, as much as will Egwene unite the Tower or will Rand die at Tarmon Gai'don. We'll learn them or we won't, and if we don't then they're not integral to the overall story.

 

So we only get the answers to your big mysteries, like is Rand the DR at the end? We knew after one book...who is the savior in aSoIaF?

 

Well now you're just being cynical. Mysteries like Rand's death at the Last Battle won't be answered until the end, or can you positively answer that one too?

 

It is 5/7 books v 11/12

 

Your math skills are off. It's 5/7 vs. 14/15 including New Spring or if you don't include New Spring it's still 13/14, but I guess we didn't get in this argument over math skills... oh wait.

 

the we aren't far enough along argument is total bs. The major players, the stakes, hell even what the war is all about is a complete mystery in aSoIaF!

 

Because (drum roll) we aren't far enough in the story. Though actually the major players has been answered since book one, and we have a pretty good idea of what the war is about as well and what the stakes are. These are answers that will be further enlightened in book 6 because it'll be setting up the major conclusion in book 7. Or they'll come in book 7 because that's when the war has to be fought. Unless the war isn't, in which case it's not an integral part of the overall story.

 

The story has progressed to a point comparable to the WoT at the end of KoD. All of the major questions about the story are still up in the air. The same can not be said for the WoT, it is plain for any impartial observer to see. If you don't get it, you just don't get it.

 

I guess I don't get it. All of the MAJOR questions in WoT have yet to be answered, except... oh right, you already know how everything's going to turn out. The questions we've gotten answers to weren't the MAJOR questions, or because the series is longer and has been written faster, we've already gotten the answers in the last three books, because we're well into the last act of the story, while in ASoIaF we're only done with Act 2.

 

Most of your ASoIaF mysteries are again plot related, and seem no more deeply plot related (see that? They're plot related) than WoT's. I still completely don't see how ASoIaF runs away with more mysteries.

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Every answer I gave you was correct.

 

Are you being ignorant on purpose or are you really so dense as to leave yourself open like that?

 

And if you point to mysteries like Jon's parentage (sorry that's an internal struggle, not a mystery, and we've had the answer since book one)

 

How is someones parentage, the answer being integral to the entire story an internal struggle? As for you knowing since book one please enlighten all of us. Millions of aSoIaF fans would like to know.

 

or Griff/Young Griff (sorry we already have the answer to that too, and it's a plotline)

 

Pretty sure we don't unless you know what the "mummers dragon" means...and what role Prince A will play? Does that mean you solved the three headed Dragon mystery?

 

or the Shadowlands (there a land far to the East)

 

and your point? who is Quiathe? who is the reincarnation of Azor Ahai and why are the shadowlands important to him? I can very well say Tear is to the south of Tar Valon but if I can tell you nothing of it's importance to the over all story it is a mystery.

 

or Greenseers (been answered)

 

Partially explained in DwD, but again if you have the answers on this one, including what their significance is in the fight with the Others you could make some money of at Westeros.org

 

So instead of just saying and wishing it so, how were your answers correct?

 

Rand choosing one or all of his girls was a mystery from book 1 to book 9, that's over half the series, glad you knew the answer before you read them. Egwene uniting the Tower was a mystery from book 6 to book 12 almost half the series, again glad you somehow knew the answer. Elayne becoming a Queen was a mystery from book 1 to book 13, basically the ENTIRE series, glad you somehow knew the answer before you read them.

 

I think this might be where the problem is. We know Rand was in love with all three girls. There are zero hints that he might choose only one from the start. There are no clues, no build up we know he will be with all three, there is not mystery. Egwene is set up as Amrylin and starts of on a quest to reunite the tower. Why don't you understand that is just a plot line? Egwene is the Daughter Heir, her becoming Queen wasn't even a question until after Morgase died so how did it start in Book 1? If someone is a princess it means they can usually become a Queen. That isn't a mystery and the fact you categorize it so highlights the exact issue I am trying to point out.

 

 

Well now you're just being cynical.

 

No I'm being realistic, 5 books in and we are still trying to solve the mystery of who the savior is. RJ laid it out plain as can be after Book 1.

 

 

Your math skills are off. It's 5/7 vs. 14/15 including New Spring or if you don't include New Spring it's still 13/14, but I guess we didn't get in this argument over math skills... oh wait.

 

RJ has clearly stated New Spring is not in included in the main arc of books and it is 12/13. Do you know something we don't about BS expanding to a 14th book? 5/7 v 12/13, the point being two books to go verse one. Not a large difference at all in terms of comparing how far along the story is.

 

 

Because (drum roll) we aren't far enough in the story. Though actually the major players has been answered since book one, and we have a pretty good idea of what the war is about as well and what the stakes are.

 

Do you think if you just keep repeating that over and over it might eventually be true? :rolleyes: We knew the answer to all of those questions fairly early on in the WoT which is the point I have clearly made and you seem unable to grasp.

 

I guess I don't get it. All of the MAJOR questions in WoT have yet to be answered

 

Which is of course a fallacy, and once again highlights how strongly you have been drinking of the WoT kool aid.

Edited by Suttree

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This really should have been a first-round knockout by Suttree, but the opposing pugilists refuse to acknowledge the repeated heavy blows landing on their heads. And now they're sounding downright punch-drunk.

 

Look, I like the WoT. A lot. Or I wouldn't be here. But the plot is incredibly derivative, even by the standards of genre fiction. There a very few "mysteries," in any meaningful sense. The fact that an argument about something idiotic and inconsequential as "Who killed Asmodeaon?" can preoccupy the fan base for years speaks volumes about just how many "mysteries" there really are in these books.

 

ASoIaF, on the other hand, is genuinely suspenseful.

 

Suttree, by TKO, at the very least.

Edited by randsc

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This really should have been a first-round knockout by Suttree, but the opposing pugilists refuse to acknowledge the repeated heavy blows landing on their heads. And now they're sounding downright punch-drunk.

 

Look, I like the WoT. A lot. Or I wouldn't be here. But the plot is incredibly derivative, even by the standards of genre fiction. There a very few "mysteries," in any meaningful sense. The fact that an argument about something idiotic and inconsequential as "Who killed Asmodeaon?" can preoccupy the fan base for years speaks volumes about just how many "mysteries" there really are in these books.

 

ASoIaF, on the other hand, is genuinely suspenseful.

 

Suttree, by TKO, at the very least.

 

and trust me folks if Randsc and I are in complete agreement on a topic(hint: somewhat rare we see eye to eye), you can definitively say it is so...it is known.

Edited by Suttree

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And if you point to mysteries like Jon's parentage (sorry that's an internal struggle, not a mystery, and we've had the answer since book one)

 

How is someones parentage, the answer being integral to the entire story an internal struggle? As for you knowing since book one please enlighten all of us. Millions of aSoIaF fans would like to know.

 

or Griff/Young Griff (sorry we already have the answer to that too, and it's a plotline)

 

Pretty sure we don't unless you know what the "mummers dragon" means...and what role Prince A will play? Does that mean you solved the three headed Dragon mystery?

 

or the Shadowlands (there a land far to the East)

 

and your point? who is Quiathe? who is the reincarnation of Azor Ahai and why are the shadowlands important to him? I can very well say Tear is to the south of Tar Valon but if I can tell you nothing of it's importance to the over all story it is a mystery.

 

or Greenseers (been answered)

 

Partially explained in DwD, but again if you have the answers on this one, including what their significance is in the fight with the Others you could make some money of at Westeros.org

 

So instead of just saying and wishing it so, how were your answers correct?

 

Way to repeat yourself, I already answered all of this. This has never been an argument over what the answers are to the mysteries, only that a lot of mysteries exist in both series. Did you think I'd get confused that you just copied and pasted your post from before? You skipped the paragraph in my last post where I pointed out that all of these are either plot points or don't bare any actually weight on the overall story. I'm sure if you went to Westeros.org they could give you answers. It's not like I'm stating there are no mysteries in ASoIaF, only that WoT has plenty as well and both of them are just as deeply rooted to the overall story.

 

I think this might be where the problem is. We know Rand was in love with all three girls. There are zero hints that he might choose only one from the start. There are no clues, no build up we know he will be with all three, there is not mystery. Egwene is set up as Amrylin and starts of on a quest to reunite the tower. Why don't you understand that is just a plot line? Egwene is the Daughter Heir, her becoming Queen wasn't even a question until after Morgase died so how did it start in Book 1? If someone is a princess it means they can usually become a Queen. That isn't a mystery and the fact you categorize it so highlights the exact issue I am trying to point out.

 

From book one there's the question of if Rand will choose one girl or all three, maybe you ought to reread the books. From book 6 there's a real question as to whether or not Egwene will be successful and how successful. From book one we know that Elayne COULD become the Queen of both Andor or Cairhein, not that she will. A mystery is something we don't know, or don't have an answer to until it is given to us, like who's Azor Ahai, or will Egwene become the Amyrlin Seat. Both are mysteries until we get the answer. We got the answer to Egwene, we don't have one yet for Azor (but we will, or it's not important to the overall plot). Sure Egwene has been on a path to becoming the Amyrlin Seat since book 2 or there abouts, just as the mystery of who's Jon Snow's parents has been building since book 1. We have plenty of evidence to put it together ourselves already, and I'm sure it'll be about as important to events as Asmodean's killer was, getting the confirmation is akin to getting the confirmation of Egwene on the Amyrlin Seat. Especially since you've said over and over again that it's an integral part of the plot.

 

No I'm being realistic, 5 books in and we are still trying to solve the mystery of who the savior is. RJ laid it out plain as can be after Book 1.

 

Well you're totally jumping to conclusion that there even IS a savior, and a savior hasn't actually been a plot point since AGoT, the concept of Azor Ahai wasn't introduced until ACoK. Plus I already answered this. Who the savoir is, is a PLOT POINT which will be ANSWERED when we get to the LAST section of the SERIES. Rand being the Dragon Reborn was never meant to be a mystery from beginning to end, and I never ever said it was, I only said that it was a mystery within the series, and it was a mystery until the end of Book 2. But I love how you skirt the mystery of Rand's death, connection to Moridin, the seals, and so on and so forth.

 

RJ has clearly stated New Spring is not in included in the main arc of books and it is 12/13. Do you know something we don't about BS expanding to a 14th book? 5/7 v 12/13, the point being two books to go verse one. Not a large difference at all in terms of comparing how far along the story is.

 

Oops, there you go with your problem in math again. ToM is the 13th book, AMoL will be the 14th book. Here I'll count them for you: 1. TEotW, 2. TGH, 3. TDR, 4. TSR, 5. TFOH, 6. LoC, 7. ACoS, 8. TPoD, 9. WH, 10. CoT, 11. KoD, 12. TGS, 13. ToM, 14. AMoL. See? 14 books. So we're 13/14. And actually we're at very different areas of the story, which you've already CONCEDED. See, even you've stated that in ASoIaF we're at about KoD level, I disagree, I think we're more at CoT, but either way, do you see that in WoT we have another 2 books out after KoD, 3 after CoT? We're further into the last act in WoT than we are in ASoIaF.

 

Do you think if you just keep repeating that over and over it might eventually be true? :rolleyes: We knew the answer to all of those questions fairly early on in the WoT which is the point I have clearly made and you seem unable to grasp.

 

Actually, you've completely dropped my argument that we didn't know by CoT the answers to: Lews Therin's voice in Rand's head, who would save Moiraine and was she alive, where Demandred is, would Perrin master his wolf abilities, would Egwene unite the Tower, how will Rand bind the Seanchan to him, will Rand die in the Last Battle, how are the seals breaking, what role will Rand's link with Moridin play in the Last Battle, would Elayne become Queen of both Andor and Carihien, what Taim is up to at the Black Tower, etc. etc. etc.

 

You've also dropped my argument that even up through ToM we don't have the answers to many of the MAJOR mysteries of the series. Such as Moridin's link playing a role in the last battle, Rand dying at the last battle, how can Rand patch the Bore, where's Demandred, etc. etc. etc.

 

Which is of course a fallacy, and once again highlights how strongly you have been drinking of the WoT kool aid.

 

Well it's mighty tasty kool aid, you should try some. But I guess it doesn't matter because so far you've completely dropped my arguments about ASoIaF's plotline mysteries, and my evidence of mysteries in WoT that have yet to be answered along with mysteries that weren't answered until after CoT. This has become a rather boring back and forth since you just repeat yourself and don't answer my statements. Maybe it's because you really like your ASoIaF kool aid. I must admit, I've drunken a lot of that as well, and like it mighty fine, but not to the point that I can't see that there are deeply rooted mysteries in WoT. I guess there's a difference between drinking the kool aid and getting a lobotomy.

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Guest PiotrekS

This really should have been a first-round knockout by Suttree, but the opposing pugilists refuse to acknowledge the repeated heavy blows landing on their heads. And now they're sounding downright punch-drunk.

 

Look, I like the WoT. A lot. Or I wouldn't be here. But the plot is incredibly derivative, even by the standards of genre fiction. There a very few "mysteries," in any meaningful sense. The fact that an argument about something idiotic and inconsequential as "Who killed Asmodeaon?" can preoccupy the fan base for years speaks volumes about just how many "mysteries" there really are in these books.

 

ASoIaF, on the other hand, is genuinely suspenseful.

 

Suttree, by TKO, at the very least.

 

and trust me folks if Randsc and I are in complete agreement on a topic(hint: somewhat rare we see eye to eye), you can definitively say it is so...it is known.

 

The day I see Randsc and Suttree agree in Egwene or Aes Sedai thread I'll know something wierd happened to Dragonmount :tongue:

 

I would say there are some "big" mysteries in WOT: is there a Creator? What has happened to Rand in ToM and how does it work? What is the nature of the link between Rand and Moridin? What is Padan Fain and what will be his role?

 

As for aSoIaF, I agree there are many mysteries, but I really hope GRRM knows how his world works and is not making things up as he goes.

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This really should have been a first-round knockout by Suttree, but the opposing pugilists refuse to acknowledge the repeated heavy blows landing on their heads. And now they're sounding downright punch-drunk.

 

Look, I like the WoT. A lot. Or I wouldn't be here. But the plot is incredibly derivative, even by the standards of genre fiction. There a very few "mysteries," in any meaningful sense. The fact that an argument about something idiotic and inconsequential as "Who killed Asmodeaon?" can preoccupy the fan base for years speaks volumes about just how many "mysteries" there really are in these books.

 

ASoIaF, on the other hand, is genuinely suspenseful.

 

Suttree, by TKO, at the very least.

 

and trust me folks if Randsc and I are in complete agreement on a topic(hint: somewhat rare we see eye to eye), you can definitively say it is so...it is known.

 

The day I see Randsc and Suttree agree in Egwene or Aes Sedai thread I'll know something wierd happened to Dragonmount :tongue:

 

I would say there are some "big" mysteries in WOT: is there a Creator? What has happened to Rand in ToM and how does it work? What is the nature of the link between Rand and Moridin? What is Padan Fain and what will be his role?

 

As for aSoIaF, I agree there are many mysteries, but I really hope GRRM knows how his world works and is not making things up as he goes.

 

@ PiotrekS :biggrin:

 

@Kadere as others have brought up you're out on your feet and don't even know it.

 

As you seem unable to grasp the central them of aSoIaF and how the major mysteries are related/their importance(you saying they "don't bare any actually weight on the overall story" plainly shows the height of your ignorance), let alone being unable to contrast those differences in WoT, there is little point in continuing. Again I urge you to revisit the story as you are missing most of what makes it so great. Trust me when I say they are just a touch more large scale, suspenseful and over arching than your examples of Eggy/WT, Elayne's Queenship, and Rand's three women. Contrary to what you falsely claim all the answers can not be found on Westeros and I hope someday you can honestly compare the two works with an unbiased eye.

Edited by Suttree

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@Kadere as others brought up you're out on your feet and don't even know it.

 

So instead of addressing any of my arguments for the last couple of posts you're just going to throw in the towel? That's a shame. I admit this was getting repetitious, but I figured if you actually addressed my points we could get somewhere. The only person who's really agreed with you was randsc. I used your same callous approach to answer ASoIaF mysteries as you did WoT's, I addressed all of your issues with WoT's length, your math, where we are in the story, where the answers would be specified in ASoIaF (or not be relevant to the overall story), and all you give me is that I'm "out on [my] feet?" I'm not even sure what that means, but I guess it means you think I've broken through thin ice or something. Oh well.

 

As you seem unable to grasp the central them of aSoIaF

 

When was this ever a discussion about theme?

 

and how the major mysteries are related/their importance

 

I never said most of the major mysteries weren't important, I said that they'd be addressed in the next book or two, and if they aren't then they're not important to the overall story.

 

(you saying they "don't bare any actually weight on the overall story" plainly shows the height of your ignorance),

 

Actually, this is what I said: "You skipped the paragraph in my last post where I pointed out that all of these are either plot points or don't bare any actually weight on the overall story." Because you seem to think that they're "integral to the entire story" which would make them PLOT POINTS which will be answered LATER in the series.

 

Again I urge you to revisit the story as you are missing most of what makes it so great.

 

Actually I just finished rereading the entire series a few days ago, and believe me, I didn't miss anything. I've always said that there are mysteries in ASoIaF, tons of them, ones that are integral to the story, but I've also said we'll get the answers in the next book or two, just as we got the answers to a lot of the mysteries in WoT after book 10.

 

Trust me when I say they are just a touch more largescale, suspenseful and over arching than your examples of Eggy, Elayne, and Rand's three women.

 

None of the ones you've mentioned have been, and those are HARDLY all of the mysteries in WoT I mentioned. But I guess if you addressed the mysteries that were left after CoT or ToM you'd have to admit that we didn't know the answers then, just like we don't in ASoIaF, and that we learned them in the next few books or the last because WoT is farther along in it's story. And if you admitted that, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

Contrary to what you falsely claim all the answers can not be found on Westeros and I hope someday you can honestly compare the two works with an unbiased eye.

 

Actually plenty of the answers can be found at Westeros, they just haven't been confirmed in the text, because ASoIaF isn't as far along as WoT is. I've been comparing both series completely unbiasedly. I've admitted that both series have a ton of mysteries in them. You on the other hand hold that only ASoIaF has major mysteries throughout it's series. You seem to think ASoIaF wins because we don't have answers yet, not because there are more mysteries, which is what this whole discussions been about, but because the story hasn't progressed the the point at which we get the answers. So if ASoIaF wins solely because it's not as far along, then that's completely unfair to say. Will the mystery of Jon Snow's parents, or Azor Ahai's identity, or why the maester's destroyed the dragons count as little as 'will Egwene become Amrylin' once we get their answers in the next book or so? I guess according to your logic they will, and then ASoIaF won't have a ton of mysteries either.

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