The Eye

[Kahsm]

also an inoculation would have been counter-productive, he needed to go mad so the barrier between Rand and LTT could thin/break.

later he made the counter-madness effect while on the mountain top.

 

The inoculation would protect him from madness - like seeing fades in every shadow. Rand was never really "insane" in that type of way. The taint is still in his mind and that was still able to break down the barrier between his lives.

[Dastion]

also an inoculation would have been counter-productive, he needed to go mad so the barrier between Rand and LTT could thin/break.

later he made the counter-madness effect while on the mountain top.

 

The inoculation would protect him from madness - like seeing fades in every shadow. Rand was never really "insane" in that type of way. The taint is still in his mind and that was still able to break down the barrier between his lives.

 

And that is based on the assumption (unless there is RJ/BS confirmation I missed) that it was the taint that caused him to hear Lews Therin's voice. Why couldn't it just be his old memories surfacing (he IS Lews Therin reborn after all) and him dealing with them by partitioning them off as a separate entity in his mind?

 

It always seemed like a bit too obvious of a red herring to me, Rand thinking he was going mad hearing voices, Cadsuane asking him if he's hearing voices yet, Semirhage talking about it being a form of madness, etc. It's all just meant to lead you to the belief that he's mad. Don't get me wrong, the taint is definitely there and it might eventually overcome whatever is protecting him from it. But you can't really believe he had that much of the taint in his mind (far far more than the Asha'man Nynaeve healed) and only ever just heard voices that turned out to actually be real thoughts.

[Suttree]

Why couldn't it just be his old memories surfacing (he IS Lews Therin reborn after all) and him dealing with them by partitioning them off as a separate entity in his mind?

 

It's as good as confirmed. Every single person in the WoT is someone reborn. If the taint wasn't the cause as Semy(an expert in the field said) it would very well be a common occurrence with everyone in the story.

 

Lord of Chaos book tour October/November 1994 - Dennis reporting

 

 

I asked him what we had picked up on that he thought we wouldn't, and he wouldn't tell me. He did say that the two ways of looking at the Rand/Lews Therin thing (Lews Therin causing Rand's madness/Lews Therin a manifestation of Rand's madness) was intentional. Wouldn't tell me which one it was though....

 

It most certainly isn't Lews Therin causing the madness and that only leaves one option...

[Dastion]

Why couldn't it just be his old memories surfacing (he IS Lews Therin reborn after all) and him dealing with them by partitioning them off as a separate entity in his mind?

 

It's as good as confirmed. Every single person in the WoT is someone reborn. If the taint wasn't the cause as Semy(an expert in the field said) it would very well be a common occurrence with everyone in the story.

 

I wouldn't put so much faith in the words of a forsaken, to me it seemed an obvious attempt to sow doubt within Rand and his followers. Also, everyone is a reborn soul NOT a reborn person. Rand is the only actual person reborn, that was stated explicitely in the books. I'm not saying there may not be other individuals reborn (resurrected Forsaken excluded), but one of the Forsaken has an inner dialouge which mentions the difference. (I can't recall which).

 

 

Lord of Chaos book tour October/November 1994 - Dennis reporting

 

 

I asked him what we had picked up on that he thought we wouldn't, and he wouldn't tell me. He did say that the two ways of looking at the Rand/Lews Therin thing (Lews Therin causing Rand's madness/Lews Therin a manifestation of Rand's madness) was intentional. Wouldn't tell me which one it was though....

 

It most certainly isn't Lews Therin causing the madness and that only leaves one option...

 

Why isn't it? That's exactly what I just said, that Rand partitioned off the part of him that was "Lews Therin" since he was unable to accept it, so it manifested as a separate entity in his mind. "Lews Therin" caused his perceived madness, while all along the story tries to lead you to believe that the taint might actually be causing Lews Therin.

 

In a book where spinning words like a top is so paramount, I'd expect people to see through this stuff more often. RJ enjoys putting the facts right infront of you briefly, and then making you doubt conclusions.

[Kahsm]

Why couldn't it just be his old memories surfacing (he IS Lews Therin reborn after all) and him dealing with them by partitioning them off as a separate entity in his mind?

 

It's as good as confirmed. Every single person in the WoT is someone reborn. If the taint wasn't the cause as Semy(an expert in the field said) it would very well be a common occurrence with everyone in the story.

 

I wouldn't put so much faith in the words of a forsaken, to me it seemed an obvious attempt to sow doubt within Rand and his followers. Also, everyone is a reborn soul NOT a reborn person. Rand is the only actual person reborn, that was stated explicitely in the books. I'm not saying there may not be other individuals reborn (resurrected Forsaken excluded), but one of the Forsaken has an inner dialouge which mentions the difference. (I can't recall which).

 

 

Lord of Chaos book tour October/November 1994 - Dennis reporting

 

 

I asked him what we had picked up on that he thought we wouldn't, and he wouldn't tell me. He did say that the two ways of looking at the Rand/Lews Therin thing (Lews Therin causing Rand's madness/Lews Therin a manifestation of Rand's madness) was intentional. Wouldn't tell me which one it was though....

 

It most certainly isn't Lews Therin causing the madness and that only leaves one option...

 

Why isn't it? That's exactly what I just said, that Rand partitioned off the part of him that was "Lews Therin" since he was unable to accept it, so it manifested as a separate entity in his mind. "Lews Therin" caused his perceived madness, while all along the story tries to lead you to believe that the taint might actually be causing Lews Therin.

 

In a book where spinning words like a top is so paramount, I'd expect people to see through this stuff more often. RJ enjoys putting the facts right infront of you briefly, and then making you doubt conclusions.

 

Didn't we go over this in the "LTT and Rand one person thread?"? Brandon said the voice was "partly caused by the taint" Another part likely the pattern saying he needed them, or some catalyst mechanism.

 

So if there was no taint, there can be no voice, because you'd be missing a part. Luckily inoculation doesn't remove the taint, just protects from the other real crazy side effects.

[Suttree]

Why couldn't it just be his old memories surfacing (he IS Lews Therin reborn after all) and him dealing with them by partitioning them off as a separate entity in his mind?

 

It's as good as confirmed. Every single person in the WoT is someone reborn. If the taint wasn't the cause as Semy(an expert in the field said) it would very well be a common occurrence with everyone in the story.

 

I wouldn't put so much faith in the words of a forsaken, to me it seemed an obvious attempt to sow doubt within Rand and his followers. Also, everyone is a reborn soul NOT a reborn person. Rand is the only actual person reborn, that was stated explicitely in the books. I'm not saying there may not be other individuals reborn (resurrected Forsaken excluded), but one of the Forsaken has an inner dialouge which mentions the difference. (I can't recall which).

 

 

Lord of Chaos book tour October/November 1994 - Dennis reporting

 

 

I asked him what we had picked up on that he thought we wouldn't, and he wouldn't tell me. He did say that the two ways of looking at the Rand/Lews Therin thing (Lews Therin causing Rand's madness/Lews Therin a manifestation of Rand's madness) was intentional. Wouldn't tell me which one it was though....

 

It most certainly isn't Lews Therin causing the madness and that only leaves one option...

 

Why isn't it? That's exactly what I just said, that Rand partitioned off the part of him that was "Lews Therin" since he was unable to accept it, so it manifested as a separate entity in his mind. "Lews Therin" caused his perceived madness, while all along the story tries to lead you to believe that the taint might actually be causing Lews Therin.

 

In a book where spinning words like a top is so paramount, I'd expect people to see through this stuff more often. RJ enjoys putting the facts right infront of you briefly, and then making you doubt conclusions.

 

So you think Lews Therin caused the madness? This is probably more suitable in the other thread but don't see how that is possible when Rand says:

 

 

TITLE - The Gathering Storm

CHAPTER: 50 - Veins of Gold

 

Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew—somehow—that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.

 

The cosmology RJ cobbled together is same soul new incarnation. Many quotes to back this up. Lews Therin is dead.

[dwn]

Thinking like an AoL Aes Sedai...

 

The world is breaking and stuff is getting lost. The continents and oceans are rearranging themselves. This sucks. We should probably make an effort to protect a few really important things, right?

 

Sure Callandor is in the prophecies, but when you get right down to it, it's just a poorly made sa'angreal. A nice ward and big chunk of stone will likely suffice.

 

The Seals are important, too, and we really don't want to lose them. Yet they're also cuendillar and thus indestructible (for all intents and purposes), so if one falls into a volcano or something, it's not really the end of the world. Also there's seven of them. Spreading them out is probably a good safety measure in case some Shadow supporters try to get their hands on them.

 

This Horn of Valere, though, it's unique. It recalls the dead heroes who have been bound to the Pattern for untold ages. How does it do that? Where did it come from? We should probably take extra special care not to lose it.

 

I think the Eye of the World was a warping of reality made to preserve the horn from the chaos of the Breaking. The liquid saidin was just one of many protections, one that would prevent anyone but a man who could channel from getting at the contents. The Green Man, the inability to find the place twice, and wards against shadowspawn and darkfriends were some of the others. The Dragon banner and Seal were a message, safe from language drift, indicating the contents were meant for the Dragon Reborn.

 

The AoL Aes Sedai had something they wanted to give to the Dragon Reborn, something unique that absolutely couldn't be left to chance. So they created a place to place to put it.

 

-- dwn

[SharpDressedAsha'Man]

The cosmology RJ cobbled together is same soul new incarnation. Many quotes to back this up. Lews Therin is dead.

That's true, but there's no reason to think that the Creator's champion can't get a bit of help from his past incarnation if the situation calls for it.

We know the 'Dragonsoul' isn't always spun out to fill the 'Dragon' role, but the last time it was it failed (rather spectaularly, too). If he doesn't know what he did wrong last time he runs the enormous risk of doing it again. What could be more of a help than the entire memory bank of his past life?

[Mr Ares]

Why couldn't it just be his old memories surfacing (he IS Lews Therin reborn after all) and him dealing with them by partitioning them off as a separate entity in his mind?

 

It's as good as confirmed. Every single person in the WoT is someone reborn. If the taint wasn't the cause as Semy(an expert in the field said) it would very well be a common occurrence with everyone in the story.

 

I wouldn't put so much faith in the words of a forsaken, to me it seemed an obvious attempt to sow doubt within Rand and his followers.

But that doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

The cosmology RJ cobbled together is same soul new incarnation. Many quotes to back this up. Lews Therin is dead.

That's true, but there's no reason to think that the Creator's champion can't get a bit of help from his past incarnation if the situation calls for it.

There's no reason to think he can, either.

 

If we look at the evidence, it seems there is a weight suggesting that Rand was a little bit on the insane side. Nothing at all suggests any innoculation, Eye related or otherwise. Nothing suggests that Rand hearing LTT's voice is a natural phenomenon, nor that it can happen by simple virtue of the taint (the taint causes madness and physical rotting, it doesn't dissolve boundaries between lives). No, Rand went crazy. LTT was a symptom of that, although not the only one.

[Entreri]

If only Cyclops was there, he would know how to use it properly. Half mad Ishy, boy toy Rand and infested lovers Aginor+Balthamel clearly had no clue.

[Kahsm]

Why couldn't it just be his old memories surfacing (he IS Lews Therin reborn after all) and him dealing with them by partitioning them off as a separate entity in his mind?

 

It's as good as confirmed. Every single person in the WoT is someone reborn. If the taint wasn't the cause as Semy(an expert in the field said) it would very well be a common occurrence with everyone in the story.

 

I wouldn't put so much faith in the words of a forsaken, to me it seemed an obvious attempt to sow doubt within Rand and his followers.

But that doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

The cosmology RJ cobbled together is same soul new incarnation. Many quotes to back this up. Lews Therin is dead.

That's true, but there's no reason to think that the Creator's champion can't get a bit of help from his past incarnation if the situation calls for it.

There's no reason to think he can, either.

 

If we look at the evidence, it seems there is a weight suggesting that Rand was a little bit on the insane side. Nothing at all suggests any innoculation, Eye related or otherwise. Nothing suggests that Rand hearing LTT's voice is a natural phenomenon, nor that it can happen by simple virtue of the taint (the taint causes madness and physical rotting, it doesn't dissolve boundaries between lives). No, Rand went crazy. LTT was a symptom of that, although not the only one.

 

You can have a strong immune system and still get cold symptoms, so you don't have to divorce the memories form pure insanity completely for the theory to still work. Rand channels WAAAY more than anyone else, starting very early on, could simply have overburdened the inoculation. I mean, you can still get the flu even with a flu shot if you eat enough flu-infested-sputum ;)

 

Also, it wouldn't be a CoL thing, or gift of the creator, the Eye, and the inoculation, would have been crafted by the AoL Aes Sedai for some purpose we may never learn.

 

But out of curiosity, what other symptoms did you see? Rand always seemed too sane to me for someone who should have been bat-shit out of his mind given all the taint he's handled.

[jsbrads]

Responding to a few people with each statement

 

Rand was mad: Nynaeve saw the black stuff in his head, he definitely lost control of himself a number of times.

 

The best lie contains a grain of truth, the natural barrier between him and LTT was broken down by taint madness.

[Mr Ares]

Why couldn't it just be his old memories surfacing (he IS Lews Therin reborn after all) and him dealing with them by partitioning them off as a separate entity in his mind?

 

It's as good as confirmed. Every single person in the WoT is someone reborn. If the taint wasn't the cause as Semy(an expert in the field said) it would very well be a common occurrence with everyone in the story.

 

I wouldn't put so much faith in the words of a forsaken, to me it seemed an obvious attempt to sow doubt within Rand and his followers.

But that doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

The cosmology RJ cobbled together is same soul new incarnation. Many quotes to back this up. Lews Therin is dead.

That's true, but there's no reason to think that the Creator's champion can't get a bit of help from his past incarnation if the situation calls for it.

There's no reason to think he can, either.

 

If we look at the evidence, it seems there is a weight suggesting that Rand was a little bit on the insane side. Nothing at all suggests any innoculation, Eye related or otherwise. Nothing suggests that Rand hearing LTT's voice is a natural phenomenon, nor that it can happen by simple virtue of the taint (the taint causes madness and physical rotting, it doesn't dissolve boundaries between lives). No, Rand went crazy. LTT was a symptom of that, although not the only one.

You can have a strong immune system and still get cold symptoms, so you don't have to divorce the memories form pure insanity completely for the theory to still work. Rand channels WAAAY more than anyone else, starting very early on, could simply have overburdened the inoculation. I mean, you can still get the flu even with a flu shot if you eat enough flu-infested-sputum ;)

 

Also, it wouldn't be a CoL thing, or gift of the creator, the Eye, and the inoculation, would have been crafted by the AoL Aes Sedai for some purpose we may never learn.

 

But out of curiosity, what other symptoms did you see? Rand always seemed too sane to me for someone who should have been bat-shit out of his mind given all the taint he's handled.

Firstly, I think it should be pointed out that we haven't really seen any correlation between amount of taint chaneled and amount of insanity - we see little sign of insanity in logain or Taim, for example, while some Asha'man went crazy on their first day. There's even a quote in the series, something along the lines of madness creeps up on some and waits for others.

 

Secondly, for signs of insanity in Rand, the most prominent is of course the voice in his head. We also see him divorcing himself from his emotions, his lashing out in anger at someone who has just negotiated a truce which is better than what he asked for, and his lack of reaction to losing a hand. After his hand is blown off, he doesn't care. He has already moved on. That's not quite normal. He's also resigned to his own death - in TSR he asked how can he win the Last Battle and survive, but by the end of KoD he's convinced he is going to die and isn't really looking for a way to avoid that fate. None of this is exactly a sign of a healthy mind.

[LukeDuke]

Why couldn't it just be his old memories surfacing (he IS Lews Therin reborn after all) and him dealing with them by partitioning them off as a separate entity in his mind?

 

It's as good as confirmed. Every single person in the WoT is someone reborn. If the taint wasn't the cause as Semy(an expert in the field said) it would very well be a common occurrence with everyone in the story.

 

I wouldn't put so much faith in the words of a forsaken, to me it seemed an obvious attempt to sow doubt within Rand and his followers.

But that doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

The cosmology RJ cobbled together is same soul new incarnation. Many quotes to back this up. Lews Therin is dead.

That's true, but there's no reason to think that the Creator's champion can't get a bit of help from his past incarnation if the situation calls for it.

There's no reason to think he can, either.

 

If we look at the evidence, it seems there is a weight suggesting that Rand was a little bit on the insane side. Nothing at all suggests any innoculation, Eye related or otherwise. Nothing suggests that Rand hearing LTT's voice is a natural phenomenon, nor that it can happen by simple virtue of the taint (the taint causes madness and physical rotting, it doesn't dissolve boundaries between lives). No, Rand went crazy. LTT was a symptom of that, although not the only one.

You can have a strong immune system and still get cold symptoms, so you don't have to divorce the memories form pure insanity completely for the theory to still work. Rand channels WAAAY more than anyone else, starting very early on, could simply have overburdened the inoculation. I mean, you can still get the flu even with a flu shot if you eat enough flu-infested-sputum ;)

 

Also, it wouldn't be a CoL thing, or gift of the creator, the Eye, and the inoculation, would have been crafted by the AoL Aes Sedai for some purpose we may never learn.

 

But out of curiosity, what other symptoms did you see? Rand always seemed too sane to me for someone who should have been bat-shit out of his mind given all the taint he's handled.

Firstly, I think it should be pointed out that we haven't really seen any correlation between amount of taint chaneled and amount of insanity - we see little sign of insanity in logain or Taim, for example, while some Asha'man went crazy on their first day. There's even a quote in the series, something along the lines of madness creeps up on some and waits for others.

 

Secondly, for signs of insanity in Rand, the most prominent is of course the voice in his head. We also see him divorcing himself from his emotions, his lashing out in anger at someone who has just negotiated a truce which is better than what he asked for, and his lack of reaction to losing a hand. After his hand is blown off, he doesn't care. He has already moved on. That's not quite normal. He's also resigned to his own death - in TSR he asked how can he win the Last Battle and survive, but by the end of KoD he's convinced he is going to die and isn't really looking for a way to avoid that fate. None of this is exactly a sign of a healthy mind.

 

 

Taim seems pretty much insane to me. So does logain to a certain extent. He may be better than most, but even when he was stilled he was weird as hell...almost like he knew he was going to get his power back at times.

 

Also, I don't think the voice in his head was because he was insane. He was really two people and that kind of fixed itself when he had his moment on the mountain in the last book.

[Kahsm]

Why couldn't it just be his old memories surfacing (he IS Lews Therin reborn after all) and him dealing with them by partitioning them off as a separate entity in his mind?

 

It's as good as confirmed. Every single person in the WoT is someone reborn. If the taint wasn't the cause as Semy(an expert in the field said) it would very well be a common occurrence with everyone in the story.

 

I wouldn't put so much faith in the words of a forsaken, to me it seemed an obvious attempt to sow doubt within Rand and his followers.

But that doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

The cosmology RJ cobbled together is same soul new incarnation. Many quotes to back this up. Lews Therin is dead.

That's true, but there's no reason to think that the Creator's champion can't get a bit of help from his past incarnation if the situation calls for it.

There's no reason to think he can, either.

 

If we look at the evidence, it seems there is a weight suggesting that Rand was a little bit on the insane side. Nothing at all suggests any innoculation, Eye related or otherwise. Nothing suggests that Rand hearing LTT's voice is a natural phenomenon, nor that it can happen by simple virtue of the taint (the taint causes madness and physical rotting, it doesn't dissolve boundaries between lives). No, Rand went crazy. LTT was a symptom of that, although not the only one.

You can have a strong immune system and still get cold symptoms, so you don't have to divorce the memories form pure insanity completely for the theory to still work. Rand channels WAAAY more than anyone else, starting very early on, could simply have overburdened the inoculation. I mean, you can still get the flu even with a flu shot if you eat enough flu-infested-sputum ;)

 

Also, it wouldn't be a CoL thing, or gift of the creator, the Eye, and the inoculation, would have been crafted by the AoL Aes Sedai for some purpose we may never learn.

 

But out of curiosity, what other symptoms did you see? Rand always seemed too sane to me for someone who should have been bat-shit out of his mind given all the taint he's handled.

Firstly, I think it should be pointed out that we haven't really seen any correlation between amount of taint chaneled and amount of insanity - we see little sign of insanity in logain or Taim, for example, while some Asha'man went crazy on their first day. There's even a quote in the series, something along the lines of madness creeps up on some and waits for others.

 

Secondly, for signs of insanity in Rand, the most prominent is of course the voice in his head. We also see him divorcing himself from his emotions, his lashing out in anger at someone who has just negotiated a truce which is better than what he asked for, and his lack of reaction to losing a hand. After his hand is blown off, he doesn't care. He has already moved on. That's not quite normal. He's also resigned to his own death - in TSR he asked how can he win the Last Battle and survive, but by the end of KoD he's convinced he is going to die and isn't really looking for a way to avoid that fate. None of this is exactly a sign of a healthy mind.

 

I won't argue the first, though I did read a Terez post once about how the voice "surged" after he does the epic channeling events. Not proof, but it seems to make sense. There are lots of suggestions that not channeling could hold it off longer, no real proof of that either but most characters seem to believe it.

 

The second however, none of that is insanity. It might be a sign of a troubled stressed out guy who needs some therapy to handle the stress, but compare what you describe to seeing fades in every shadow, knowing it's not real, but not being able to convince yourself. That is nuts. If Rand was taint crazy, he'd have a quirk that is not rational and progressively more dangerous or self destructive, not some rather mundane stress and anger problems.

[Terez]

The first obvious instances of Lews Therin (aside from a bit in a dream in TEOTW 9) were after Rand used Callandor for the first time (in TSR 9). Then it's nothing until after he used the Choedan Kal for the first time (in TFOH 2), at which point the memories start coming regularly. That's tied into the taint barrier degradation theory, but it essentially correlates with his loss of sanity. He got really extreme after the Cleansing (mass taint intake), to the point that he went into hiding at Algarin's...but that didn't work out like he wanted.

[Mr Ares]

Taim seems pretty much insane to me. So does logain to a certain extent. He may be better than most, but even when he was stilled he was weird as hell...almost like he knew he was going to get his power back at times.

 

Also, I don't think the voice in his head was because he was insane. He was really two people and that kind of fixed itself when he had his moment on the mountain in the last book.

Then how do you explain him saying in VoG that he was not two men and never had been? Also, I see no evidence of insanity in either Taim or Logain - what eveidence do you see?

 

 

If we look at the evidence, it seems there is a weight suggesting that Rand was a little bit on the insane side. Nothing at all suggests any innoculation, Eye related or otherwise. Nothing suggests that Rand hearing LTT's voice is a natural phenomenon, nor that it can happen by simple virtue of the taint (the taint causes madness and physical rotting, it doesn't dissolve boundaries between lives). No, Rand went crazy. LTT was a symptom of that, although not the only one.

You can have a strong immune system and still get cold symptoms, so you don't have to divorce the memories form pure insanity completely for the theory to still work. Rand channels WAAAY more than anyone else, starting very early on, could simply have overburdened the inoculation. I mean, you can still get the flu even with a flu shot if you eat enough flu-infested-sputum ;)

 

Also, it wouldn't be a CoL thing, or gift of the creator, the Eye, and the inoculation would have been crafted by the AoL Aes Sedai for some purpose we may never learn.

 

But out of curiosity, what other symptoms did you see? Rand always seemed too sane to me for someone who should have been bat-shit out of his mind given all the taint he's handled.

Firstly, I think it should be pointed out that we haven't really seen any correlation between amount of taint chaneled and amount of insanity - we see little sign of insanity in logain or Taim, for example, while some Asha'man went crazy on their first day. There's even a quote in the series, something along the lines of madness creeps up on some and waits for others.

 

Secondly, for signs of insanity in Rand, the most prominent is of course the voice in his head. We also see him divorcing himself from his emotions, his lashing out in anger at someone who has just negotiated a truce which is better than what he asked for, and his lack of reaction to losing a hand. After his hand is blown off, he doesn't care. He has already moved on. That's not quite normal. He's also resigned to his own death - in TSR he asked how can he win the Last Battle and survive, but by the end of KoD he's convinced he is going to die and isn't really looking for a way to avoid that fate. None of this is exactly a sign of a healthy mind.

 

I won't argue the first, though I did read a Terez post once about how the voice "surged" after he does the epic channeling events. Not proof, but it seems to make sense. There are lots of suggestions that not channeling could hold it off longer, no real proof of that either but most characters seem to believe it.

 

The second however, none of that is insanity. It might be a sign of a troubled stressed out guy who needs some therapy to handle the stress, but compare what you describe to seeing fades in every shadow, knowing it's not real, but not being able to convince yourself. That is nuts. If Rand was taint crazy, he'd have a quirk that is not rational and progressively more dangerous or self destructive, not some rather mundane stress and anger problems.

A quirk that is not rational and is dangerous and self destructive sounds like a good way of describing Rand's walling himself off from his emotions, his lack of concern for his own wellbeing, his willingness to die. Therefore by your definition, I would say Rand is mad.

[Kahsm]

Taim seems pretty much insane to me. So does logain to a certain extent. He may be better than most, but even when he was stilled he was weird as hell...almost like he knew he was going to get his power back at times.

 

Also, I don't think the voice in his head was because he was insane. He was really two people and that kind of fixed itself when he had his moment on the mountain in the last book.

Then how do you explain him saying in VoG that he was not two men and never had been? Also, I see no evidence of insanity in either Taim or Logain - what eveidence do you see?

 

 

If we look at the evidence, it seems there is a weight suggesting that Rand was a little bit on the insane side. Nothing at all suggests any innoculation, Eye related or otherwise. Nothing suggests that Rand hearing LTT's voice is a natural phenomenon, nor that it can happen by simple virtue of the taint (the taint causes madness and physical rotting, it doesn't dissolve boundaries between lives). No, Rand went crazy. LTT was a symptom of that, although not the only one.

You can have a strong immune system and still get cold symptoms, so you don't have to divorce the memories form pure insanity completely for the theory to still work. Rand channels WAAAY more than anyone else, starting very early on, could simply have overburdened the inoculation. I mean, you can still get the flu even with a flu shot if you eat enough flu-infested-sputum ;)

 

Also, it wouldn't be a CoL thing, or gift of the creator, the Eye, and the inoculation would have been crafted by the AoL Aes Sedai for some purpose we may never learn.

 

But out of curiosity, what other symptoms did you see? Rand always seemed too sane to me for someone who should have been bat-shit out of his mind given all the taint he's handled.

Firstly, I think it should be pointed out that we haven't really seen any correlation between amount of taint chaneled and amount of insanity - we see little sign of insanity in logain or Taim, for example, while some Asha'man went crazy on their first day. There's even a quote in the series, something along the lines of madness creeps up on some and waits for others.

 

Secondly, for signs of insanity in Rand, the most prominent is of course the voice in his head. We also see him divorcing himself from his emotions, his lashing out in anger at someone who has just negotiated a truce which is better than what he asked for, and his lack of reaction to losing a hand. After his hand is blown off, he doesn't care. He has already moved on. That's not quite normal. He's also resigned to his own death - in TSR he asked how can he win the Last Battle and survive, but by the end of KoD he's convinced he is going to die and isn't really looking for a way to avoid that fate. None of this is exactly a sign of a healthy mind.

 

I won't argue the first, though I did read a Terez post once about how the voice "surged" after he does the epic channeling events. Not proof, but it seems to make sense. There are lots of suggestions that not channeling could hold it off longer, no real proof of that either but most characters seem to believe it.

 

The second however, none of that is insanity. It might be a sign of a troubled stressed out guy who needs some therapy to handle the stress, but compare what you describe to seeing fades in every shadow, knowing it's not real, but not being able to convince yourself. That is nuts. If Rand was taint crazy, he'd have a quirk that is not rational and progressively more dangerous or self destructive, not some rather mundane stress and anger problems.

A quirk that is not rational and is dangerous and self destructive sounds like a good way of describing Rand's walling himself off from his emotions, his lack of concern for his own wellbeing, his willingness to die. Therefore by your definition, I would say Rand is mad.

 

Well I think we may have to agree to disagree here because I'm starting to circle now. I don't think severe depression means someone is insane, and given his situation, it seems completely rational. LTT couldn't see dead bodies as he stepped over them. Didn't know what he was doing when he killed them. Ishy had to 'heal' him to make him see. Even when Rand was doing dark things he knew what he was doing.

[dwn]

Well I think we may have to agree to disagree here because I'm starting to circle now. I don't think severe depression means someone is insane, and given his situation, it seems completely rational. LTT couldn't see dead bodies as he stepped over them. Didn't know what he was doing when he killed them. Ishy had to 'heal' him to make him see. Even when Rand was doing dark things he knew what he was doing.

 

LTT was in the midst of a full on psychotic break with reality, but severe depression and obsessive thoughts are mental illness all the same.

 

-- dwn

[Kahsm]

Well I think we may have to agree to disagree here because I'm starting to circle now. I don't think severe depression means someone is insane, and given his situation, it seems completely rational. LTT couldn't see dead bodies as he stepped over them. Didn't know what he was doing when he killed them. Ishy had to 'heal' him to make him see. Even when Rand was doing dark things he knew what he was doing.

 

LTT was in the midst of a full on psychotic break with reality, but severe depression and obsessive thoughts are mental illness all the same.

 

-- dwn

 

What causes depression?

Loss, Isolation, Conflict, Stress

 

Rand has all of these in abundance, are you suggesting MCs are immune to depression through mundane factors? I don't see how you can conclude it MUST be taint induced. The taint causes insanity, irrational fears, hallucinations, not common mental illness that the person should have anyway since he has every single risk factor. If insane MCs just got sad they'd slit their wrists in the bathtub while listening to Dashboard Confessional

 

And the taint has been cleansed for awhile, so how did he continue to build to this break? He wouldn't have any more taint today than when it was cleansed.

[dwn]

Well I think we may have to agree to disagree here because I'm starting to circle now. I don't think severe depression means someone is insane, and given his situation, it seems completely rational. LTT couldn't see dead bodies as he stepped over them. Didn't know what he was doing when he killed them. Ishy had to 'heal' him to make him see. Even when Rand was doing dark things he knew what he was doing.

 

LTT was in the midst of a full on psychotic break with reality, but severe depression and obsessive thoughts are mental illness all the same.

 

-- dwn

 

What causes depression?

Loss, Isolation, Conflict, Stress

 

Rand has all of these in abundance, are you suggesting MCs are immune to depression through mundane factors? I don't see how you can conclude it MUST be taint induced. The taint causes insanity, irrational fears, hallucinations, not common mental illness that the person should have anyway since he has every single risk factor. If insane MCs just got sad they'd slit their wrists in the bathtub while listening to Dashboard Confessional

 

And the taint has been cleansed for awhile, so how did he continue to build to this break? He wouldn't have any more taint today than when it was cleansed.

 

"Insanity" is just a colloquial term for many different forms of mental illness: depression, mania, irrational anxiety, compulsive behaviour, etc. All involve a distorted view of reality and, pushed to extremes, any of them can cause a person to be horribly destructive.

 

Rand never experienced a permanent psychotic break though he likely came close during the attack on Algarin's manor. Nonetheless he did show many signs of severe mental illness: obsessive fear and guilt, intrusive thoughts, inappropriate emotional responses, hearing a voice, being afraid that voice will take over, etc. Given that he was frequently channelling saidin it follows that the taint was the primary cause of his insanity. Stress alone--even extreme stress-- doesn't often cause that sort of thing in an otherwise healthy person.

 

-- dwn

[Terez]

I think it's probably pretty pointless to try to parse it all out like that. The taint and the pressures of daily life were both contributors, and you might say the former magnified the effects of the latter.

[Hadilmir]

Who's to say the Eye isn't still in play? Allow just one extra detail to be added to the list: the Eye is a renewing source of clean Saidin. That small addition clicks right in if you think about it somewhat nonsensically. When Rand first draws on the Eye, he at some point hears the BOOMING VOICE OF CAPSLOCK. At that point this hadn't been explained yet, but after VoG, Rand finds himself assimilated with his past lives. Judging by the items hidden in the Eye, it was created specifically to serve the Dragon, and yet the title "Eye of the World" isn't befitting of a mere pool of saidin, immense though it may be. The title sounds far too metaphysical for such a base object, so I assume its ties to the Dragon are deeper than a one-time tool.

We also see something interesting happen while Rand is directly linked with the Eye, a booming voice heard no other time. "I WILL TAKE NO PART, ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL." can be explained as the Dragon entity itself, all those past lives refusing to assimilate with Rand at this point because "IT IS NOT HERE", in less poetic words, it's too early: Rand had not found his purpose at that point. So Rand remains bound to this fount of Power, but never again able to draw upon it until his revelation atop Dragonmount because he did not initiate the drawing upon it the first time. He literally stole the link from Aginor and once it ran dry he fumbled and dropped his full link with it, but still remained bound to the Eye.

Flashforward to VoG, Rand finds his purpose and fully accepts that he is the Dragon, champion of humanity. Suddenly he is protected by a force of white light that holds back the darkness; very useful to the Dragon specifically, yes? His access to Saidin is also apparently greatly magnified by this white light. Perhaps that is the original use for the Eye, a well of Power designed to replenish while being protected from the Dark One's taint, which extends its properties to those fully linked with it, namely the Dragon whom it was designed for.

 

 

*I'm tempted to draw this out further and theorize on how this could explain a link between Rand and Moridin if say, Moridin decided to bind himself to the Eye as well. Maybe if no one immediately shoots this theory down lol

[cmsnaith]

Aren't eyes considered to be the gateway to the soul? Rand can tell a DF by looking into their eyes. Mat theorizes that the Finns gave him memories from people who went into the doorway ter'angreal, and then had a link to their souls, and could see through their eyes, thus all his memories were from after those people went to the Finns, not before.

 

Perhaps Eye of the World is a metaphor for its own meaning and purpose.

 

Consider: Shayol Ghul is where DF go to speak with the DO. That is, though the Bore is present everywhere, it is most strongly felt at Shayol Ghul, and here they can hear the voice of the DO (ALL CAPS).

 

Perhaps the Eye of the World is a metaphor, meaning it's a gateway to the "soul" of the world; the creator? Though the Creator may be everywhere (hence the ability to draw on Saidin/Saidar anywhere... except Stedding, but that may have some other explanation), just as the Bore is everywhere, perhaps the Eye was made as a way to connect to the Creator more strongly than anywhere else (and more clearly, free from the taint), and actually hear his voice (ALL CAPS)?

[jsbrads]

If the Eye were renewing the makers would not have needed to fill it (dying in doing so) they could have let it fill on it's own.

 

Schizophrenia is an illness, people who have modern Schizophrenia can be healed (really just symptoms suppressed) by drugs, theoretically a fundamental change to their brains via channeling healing would do just as well, but Greandel never told us the technique used in her day. However they never healed someone whose voice originates from a real dead personality... He was mad until this book, now he is superhuman or something.

All other symtoms can be explained away perhaps, but not schizophrenia.

 

Also the makers couldn't depend on a woman, or women of sufficient strength to balefire the seals 3000 yrs hence, they knew one person would be there, alone perhaps, he needed everything to solve the problem, they provided it. We were told they cleansed it, not messed with it in anyway, and I for one believe that.