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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

finished ToM, alack more questions than answers


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found this to be quite good, at least on a level with (or possibly a little better than) the gathering storm. I was a little surprised so much mileage was given to Perrin STILL struggling to accept the responsibilities of being a leader...I thought he came to terms with that like 7 books ago? also the chronology is funny and alot of these scenes seem to have happened before the end of TGS. one chapter we're seeing Tam hugging Rand in Tear, then next thing ya know he's back with Perrin before Nynaeve even came for him? I guess that was to keep the lengths of the books roughly equal but it still felt a little awkward. other than that I have a slew of questions

 

1) what did Tiana give Rand? a Verin-letter? was that how he knew about Alsalam? how did Verin know?

 

b) who now controls the gholam? it mentions a new master. didn't it answer directly to Moridin previously? I can't remember...

 

3) were Weiramon and Anay........Anaiyella (or something) forsaken? or just darkfriends? I especially wonder because of the way Rand responded to Min right after that. which forsaken might they have been? assuming they weren't using a mask of mirrors or something to change gender...the only unaccounted for male forsaken left is demandred, right? and asmodean? (but we saw weiramon seperate from asmo in #4 & 5)...so was demandred weiramon this whole time? Anaiyella could be who...Moghedien or Cyndane? the timing of her appearance (Path of Daggers) works out right. or is that just what they want us to think? and if they WERE forsaken, did Rand sever them in that scene, or were they just overcome with emotion at his...holiness or something? can someone remind me or point out a thread or post detailing all the unaccounted for forsaken?

 

badass line by Mat:

We'd have to do what you said, Elayne, I won't have it. Some battles aren't worth fighting, and I'm going to decide when my men put themselves at risk. That's that.

elaynefail:

Did you know that I might ask you to take arms against the Two Rivers? We shall see what Perrin forces me to do.
argh?

 

4) how did Elayne know Thom killed Galldrian?

 

5) Birgitte says she and Gaidal almost always get killed, rather than living to old age? I mean...doesn't that suck? will she be killed before the end of the series, do you think?

 

6) why did Galad postpone naming Perrin's sentence after his trial?

 

7) how did Danelle beat the oath rod? One of Saerin's theories? or were there TWO of her (a real, non-black one under compulsion and Mesaana, co-opting her appearance in order to walk around?) I remember her being sneaky in the days before Siuan's deposing, bringing in extra troops under the guise of workers or some such, I don't think there was a seperate, non-black Danelle...so Mesaana must have beaten the oath rod somehow? AND sidestepped Verin's investigation?

 

8) what is with the metaphor of leaves falling? seems to happen at quite a few points in the book, but I can't make a connection between them? something to do with the Way of the Leaf? (lol)

 

9) ok Galad has a Verin-letter too? what did his say? not to name Perrin's sentence right away? see if he saves your ass? again how did she know?

 

10) why does Master Norry take all his papers out in the scene right before Galad and Morgase enter wearing hoods...I thought he NEVER did that?

 

11) is this Mat and Perrin's first reunion since the Stone of Tear (beginning of book 4)? I remember Mat went with Rand into the waste, and was still with him later when he and Aviendha were killed by Rahvin's wards (?)...then Rand sending him first to Tear to besiege Sammael, then to Salidar / Ebou Dar.....while Perrin was ta'veren-tugged out of the Two Rivers just in time for Dumai's Wells...after which Rand sent HIM to deal with Masema. so did Perrin see Mat at all inbetween returning for Dumai's Wells and leaving for Masema, or is this the first time? just curious

 

worse elaynefail:

Explain to me why I shouldn't just execute you both as traitors.
lol ¿qué?

 

prediction: after her future-visions Aviendha will conclude that the Aiel must return to the Way of the Leaf whence they came, lest they be annihilated by the Seanchan and to FULLY restore their honor (last battle participation aside). ok I see others have come to this conclusion also, I haven't read every thread on here cuz I've been trying to minimize spoilers so apologies for plagiarizing others' ideas

 

12) is Taim Moridin, standing there with his hand like that? also the black tower has another dreamspike? Graendal acted like it was a huge deal. not to mention male channelers were sensed helping the shadowspawn at Maradon, AND on the Lugard Road? ok I can see this has been discussed at horrific length, can anyone either summarize for me the conclusions or link me to the relevant threads?

 

13) could the Sea Folk out-bargain the 'finn-folk, do you think? maybe Mat should have made one of them his third?

 

14) what's with Farstrider's comment about the Malkieri? can someone refresh me on his backstory...he disappeared in the blight or something right? how was he involved in Malkier's fall again?

 

15) could Verin have maybe stressed a little more the dire importance of her letter / request to Mat? maybe prevented the razing of Caemlyn? seems like she was content to let him carry on thinking it was some horrible imposition...maybe that was all her oaths to the great lord allowed her to do?

 

 

 

total typos found: 64

(thats with letting a few of the iffy ones slide...)

overall rating: 8 and three quarters

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I'll answer the ones I am pretty sure of:

 

3) Just Darkfriends. I don't think he lets forsaken just walk away and vice versa.

 

6) Aren't most sentences decided upon after the verdict?

 

11) Yes.

 

12) Don't think so. My personal theory is that Taim is dead and has never been scene "on screen". I believe Demendred is the Taim we have seen on screen and that RJ has been playing a nice Aes Sedai truth bending trick by saying "Demandred is not Taim".

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1) what did Tiana give Rand? a Verin-letter? was that how he knew about Alsalam? how did Verin know?

 

I think we can safely assume it was a Verin letter. What was in it...RAFO.

 

b) who now controls the gholam? it mentions a new master. didn't it answer directly to Moridin previously? I can't remember...

 

Sammael was the one who set the gholam loose in Ebou Dar. Who its new master is remains to be seen, but Moridin is not a bad guess.

 

3) were Weiramon and Anay........Anaiyella (or something) forsaken? or just darkfriends? I especially wonder because of the way Rand responded to Min right after that. which forsaken might they have been? assuming they weren't using a mask of mirrors or something to change gender...the only unaccounted for male forsaken left is demandred, right? and asmodean? (but we saw weiramon seperate from asmo in #4 & 5)...so was demandred weiramon this whole time? Anaiyella could be who...Moghedien or Cyndane? the timing of her appearance (Path of Daggers) works out right. or is that just what they want us to think? and if they WERE forsaken, did Rand sever them in that scene, or were they just overcome with emotion at his...holiness or something? can someone remind me or point out a thread or post detailing all the unaccounted for forsaken?

 

 

They were just DFs.

 

4) how did Elayne know Thom killed Galldrian?

 

We don't know, other than that she figured it out.

 

5) Birgitte says she and Gaidal almost always get killed, rather than living to old age? I mean...doesn't that suck? will she be killed before the end of the series, do you think?

 

I think that she will survive. Mins viewings of her has her paired with a guy sometimes older, sometimes younger. But in all her previous lives she was younger than Gaidal Cain, which suggests that this is the life that ends that streak.

 

6) why did Galad postpone naming Perrin's sentence after his trial?

 

Little bit ta'veren, little bit Galad always wanting to do the right thing, and here he was not sure what the right thing was.

 

7) how did Danelle beat the oath rod? One of Saerin's theories? or were there TWO of her (a real, non-black one under compulsion and Mesaana, co-opting her appearance in order to walk around?) I remember her being sneaky in the days before Siuan's deposing, bringing in extra troops under the guise of workers or some such, I don't think there was a seperate, non-black Danelle...so Mesaana must have beaten the oath rod somehow? AND sidestepped Verin's investigation?

 

She used a weave that made it appear that she retook the oaths, while she really was saying something completely different. Egwene gives Seaine, yukiri and saerin the task of figuring out how mesaana defeated the Oath rod, Seaine comes up with three options, of which this is the only really plausible.

 

8) what is with the metaphor of leaves falling? seems to happen at quite a few points in the book, but I can't make a connection between them? something to do with the Way of the Leaf? (lol)

 

 

Leaves falling is a very common metaphor for death. In this case, the world itself is dying.

 

9) ok Galad has a Verin-letter too? what did his say? not to name Perrin's sentence right away? see if he saves your ass? again how did she know?

RAFO biggrin.gif

 

10) why does Master Norry take all his papers out in the scene right before Galad and Morgase enter wearing hoods...I thought he NEVER did that?

 

Because Norry is Deamndredbiggrin.gif

 

11) is this Mat and Perrin's first reunion since the Stone of Tear (beginning of book 4)? I remember Mat went with Rand into the waste, and was still with him later when he and Aviendha were killed by Rahvin's wards (?)...then Rand sending him first to Tear to besiege Sammael, then to Salidar / Ebou Dar.....while Perrin was ta'veren-tugged out of the Two Rivers just in time for Dumai's Wells...after which Rand sent HIM to deal with Masema. so did Perrin see Mat at all inbetween returning for Dumai's Wells and leaving for Masema, or is this the first time? just curious

 

 

Yes, it is the first time since TDR.

 

worse elaynefail:
Explain to me why I shouldn't just execute you both as traitors.
lol ¿qué?

 

Well, according to the law they are were traitors, and Elayne would have every right to chop their heads off.

 

 

12) is Taim Moridin, standing there with his hand like that? also the black tower has another dreamspike? Graendal acted like it was a huge deal. not to mention male channelers were sensed helping the shadowspawn at Maradon, AND on the Lugard Road? ok I can see this has been discussed at horrific length, can anyone either summarize for me the conclusions or link me to the relevant threads?

 

No, Taim is not Moridin. Yes, the BT has another dreamspike.

 

13) could the Sea Folk out-bargain the 'finn-folk, do you think? maybe Mat should have made one of them his third?

 

If they knew the rules. Which they don't, so no.

 

14) what's with Farstrider's comment about the Malkieri? can someone refresh me on his backstory...he disappeared in the blight or something right? how was he involved in Malkier's fall again?

 

He was not involved in Malkiers fall. Quite the contrary, as he was the one who captured the DF responsible for Malkiers fall.

 

15) could Verin have maybe stressed a little more the dire importance of her letter / request to Mat? maybe prevented the razing of Caemlyn? seems like she was content to let him carry on thinking it was some horrible imposition...maybe that was all her oaths to the great lord allowed her to do?

 

I think her biggest mistake was trusting that mats curiosity would make it impossible for him to not open the letter. Otherwise, she could easily have cmoe up with a backup plan, like "dear mat, please read the letter. but if you really, really don't want to, give it to Thom or Elayne instead".

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found this to be quite good, at least on a level with (or possibly a little better than) the gathering storm. I was a little surprised so much mileage was given to Perrin STILL struggling to accept the responsibilities of being a leader...I thought he came to terms with that like 7 books ago? also the chronology is funny and alot of these scenes seem to have happened before the end of TGS. one chapter we're seeing Tam hugging Rand in Tear, then next thing ya know he's back with Perrin before Nynaeve even came for him? I guess that was to keep the lengths of the books roughly equal but it still felt a little awkward. other than that I have a slew of questions

 

1) what did Tiana give Rand? a Verin-letter? was that how he knew about Alsalam? how did Verin know?

 

b) who now controls the gholam? it mentions a new master. didn't it answer directly to Moridin previously? I can't remember...

Nobody knows for sure but Moridin would seem the most natural suspect. He was in the area when Sammael died and he sent Moggy to Falion and Ispan right before they joined the gholam in the Rahad to try to get the Bowl.

3) were Weiramon and Anay........Anaiyella (or something) forsaken? or just darkfriends? I especially wonder because of the way Rand responded to Min right after that. which forsaken might they have been? assuming they weren't using a mask of mirrors or something to change gender...the only unaccounted for male forsaken left is demandred, right? and asmodean? (but we saw weiramon seperate from asmo in #4 & 5)...so was demandred weiramon this whole time? Anaiyella could be who...Moghedien or Cyndane? the timing of her appearance (Path of Daggers) works out right. or is that just what they want us to think? and if they WERE forsaken, did Rand sever them in that scene, or were they just overcome with emotion at his...holiness or something? can someone remind me or point out a thread or post detailing all the unaccounted for forsaken?

 

They are just DFs, nothing more. There are no unaccounted Forsaken except for Demandred and Wieramon is certainly no him. The new zen Rand appears to be able to sniff out DFs by looking into their eyes and seems to affect them somehow judging by Wieramon, Anaiyella and also Torkumen and his wife.

 

 

badass line by Mat:

We'd have to do what you said, Elayne, I won't have it. Some battles aren't worth fighting, and I'm going to decide when my men put themselves at risk. That's that.

elaynefail:

Did you know that I might ask you to take arms against the Two Rivers? We shall see what Perrin forces me to do.
argh?

argh indeed. this has been debated a lot on the forum so if you want to vent on the subject search for the appropriate threads.

 

 

4) how did Elayne know Thom killed Galldrian?

 

5) Birgitte says she and Gaidal almost always get killed, rather than living to old age? I mean...doesn't that suck? will she be killed before the end of the series, do you think?

 

6) why did Galad postpone naming Perrin's sentence after his trial?

 

7) how did Danelle beat the oath rod? One of Saerin's theories?

Nobody knows for sure and the point made in the book was that it doesn't matter how she did it. likely we'll never find out.

 

or were there TWO of her (a real, non-black one under compulsion and Mesaana, co-opting her appearance in order to walk around?) I remember her being sneaky in the days before Siuan's deposing, bringing in extra troops under the guise of workers or some such, I don't think there was a seperate, non-black Danelle...so Mesaana must have beaten the oath rod somehow? AND sidestepped Verin's investigation?

 

8) what is with the metaphor of leaves falling? seems to happen at quite a few points in the book, but I can't make a connection between them? something to do with the Way of the Leaf? (lol)

 

9) ok Galad has a Verin-letter too? what did his say? not to name Perrin's sentence right away? see if he saves your ass? again how did she know?

 

10) why does Master Norry take all his papers out in the scene right before Galad and Morgase enter wearing hoods...I thought he NEVER did that?

 

11) is this Mat and Perrin's first reunion since the Stone of Tear (beginning of book 4)? I remember Mat went with Rand into the waste, and was still with him later when he and Aviendha were killed by Rahvin's wards (?)...then Rand sending him first to Tear to besiege Sammael, then to Salidar / Ebou Dar.....while Perrin was ta'veren-tugged out of the Two Rivers just in time for Dumai's Wells...after which Rand sent HIM to deal with Masema. so did Perrin see Mat at all inbetween returning for Dumai's Wells and leaving for Masema, or is this the first time? just curious

 

worse elaynefail:

Explain to me why I shouldn't just execute you both as traitors.
lol ¿qué?

 

prediction: after her future-visions Aviendha will conclude that the Aiel must return to the Way of the Leaf whence they came, lest they be annihilated by the Seanchan and to FULLY restore their honor (last battle participation aside). ok I see others have come to this conclusion also, I haven't read every thread on here cuz I've been trying to minimize spoilers so apologies for plagiarizing others' ideas

 

12) is Taim Moridin, standing there with his hand like that? also the black tower has another dreamspike? Graendal acted like it was a huge deal. not to mention male channelers were sensed helping the shadowspawn at Maradon, AND on the Lugard Road? ok I can see this has been discussed at horrific length, can anyone either summarize for me the conclusions or link me to the relevant threads?

This has been discussed a LOT. See my writeup of pros and cons for the theory.

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My personal theory is that Taim is dead and has never been scene "on screen". I believe Demendred is the Taim we have seen on screen and that RJ has been playing a nice Aes Sedai truth bending trick by saying "Demandred is not Taim".

I think this could potentially be possible...especially what with demandred's intense hatred of lews therin, rand and taim's instant hatred of each other (with lews therin screaming "kill him!") and especially, probably the reason most people thought taim demandred at first, the things that happened in lord of chaos. a quote (or something) tells us the lord of chaos = rand; the dark one says let the lord of chaos rule; rand tells taim "make me weapons"; the unprecedented carnage of the one power slaughter at dumai's wells (break the shaido for me, taim); and finally demandred in the pit of doom saying haven't I done well? and the dark one actually laughing (even rand had stopped laughing at that point)

 

it was a Verin letter. What was in it...RAFO.

lol read WHAT? man? read the same book again, more closely? maybe in quite a few years. wait...are you saying there is most likely some shadow-fishiness going on with alsalam's reappearance? come to think of it, how COULD he have been taken from graendal by elaida? ok, he wasn't pretty enough to be one her pets, but that doesn't explain why she would let him go or how he could have been taken by the white tower, unless she intended it to happen. right? so what kind of shadow plot is this?

 

There are no unaccounted Forsaken except for Demandred

ah... ok I can't remember, where are moghedien and cyndane operating? and are they masquerading as any characters we've already seen, unbeknownst to us? demandred has been kept a mystery...is moghedien still over the black sisters in caemlyn? cyndane was meeting with a merchant or something when the taint was cleansed...did we ever get her exact location / purpose? what about asmodean, was he ever.....uhhhhh transmigrated? I can't remember any of these deets

 

yes, appreciate the moridin thread! (with all the pros and cons collected in one place) very enlightening...now I don't know what to think, it seems we're intended to not know crap about these topics, yet speculate endlessly to no avail. I just hope they resolve every question with the last volume...

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My personal theory is that Taim is dead and has never been scene "on screen". I believe Demendred is the Taim we have seen on screen and that RJ has been playing a nice Aes Sedai truth bending trick by saying "Demandred is not Taim".

I think this could potentially be possible...especially what with demandred's intense hatred of lews therin, rand and taim's instant hatred of each other (with lews therin screaming "kill him!") and especially, probably the reason most people thought taim demandred at first, the things that happened in lord of chaos. a quote (or something) tells us the lord of chaos = rand; the dark one says let the lord of chaos rule; rand tells taim "make me weapons"; the unprecedented carnage of the one power slaughter at dumai's wells (break the shaido for me, taim); and finally demandred in the pit of doom saying haven't I done well? and the dark one actually laughing (even rand had stopped laughing at that point)

Actually, Taim being Demandred is impossible. In WH, during the Cleansing, Demandred sees Flinn (one of the Asha'man) and doesn't recognise him, doesn't even realise there are Asha'man of that age. Taim would know Flinn, as he was there when Taim arrived at the BT. RJ's statements might be AS truth, if you spin things enough, but that doesn't deal with the evidence in the books. Oh, and the Lord of Chaos is not Rand - people have speculated that before, but it doesn't really fit with any of the uses of the phrase in the books.

 

There are no unaccounted Forsaken except for Demandred

ah... ok I can't remember, where are moghedien and cyndane operating? and are they masquerading as any characters we've already seen, unbeknownst to us? demandred has been kept a mystery...is moghedien still over the black sisters in caemlyn? cyndane was meeting with a merchant or something when the taint was cleansed...did we ever get her exact location / purpose? what about asmodean, was he ever.....uhhhhh transmigrated? I can't remember any of these deets

To give you the full run down on the Chosen: Moridin is based in the Blight, seldom appearing to the south. Moghedien and Cyndane are both used by him to run errands, so it is doubtful they have permanent alter egos. Sammael, Rahvin, Semirhage, Be'lal and Aran'gar are beyond Shai'tan's ability to bring back, and Asmo He wouldnt even if He wanted to - and it might be He can't bring him back either. Osan'gar could theoretically come back, but he's already died twice, and the Shadow doesn't have a supply of bodies on hand. If they get time, they might do it but I wouldn't hold my breath. Graendal is... well you've just finished ToM so I'm sure you don't need any reminders just yet, Mesaana is a vegetable and that leaves Demandred, ever mysterious.
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lol read WHAT? man? read the same book again, more closely? maybe in quite a few years. wait...are you saying there is most likely some shadow-fishiness going on with alsalam's reappearance? come to think of it, how COULD he have been taken from graendal by elaida? ok, he wasn't pretty enough to be one her pets, but that doesn't explain why she would let him go or how he could have been taken by the white tower, unless she intended it to happen. right? so what kind of shadow plot is this?

 

 

 

RAFO = Read And Find Out. In other words, if there is something important here, we should learn about it in AMOL. (Rand says that it was Verin told him about Elaida kidnapping Stepaneos, which was how he took a chance that they might have gone for Alsalam as well. I think it is a fairly safe assumption there were more things in the letter).

As for Alsalam escaping from Graendal...You are assuming she ever had him in the first place. Rand says flat out that she never did.

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RAFO = Read And Find Out. In other words, if there is something important here, we should learn about it in AMOL.

ah ok, read the book that is not out yet...check

 

during the Cleansing, Demandred sees Flinn (one of the Asha'man) and doesn't recognise him, doesn't even realise there are Asha'man of that age. Taim would know Flinn, as he was there when Taim arrived at the BT.

ahhh yes I forgot all about that...good times.

 

wait, but hasn't flinn been with rand for an awfully long time now? maybe even since dumai's wells? perhaps he is just beneath taim's notice? (that would jive with the arrogance of not only taim but also demandred). so on a whim I went back and reread that scene (was mostly curious about lanfear actually) and you're right, demandred doesn't recognize flinn at all. but he DOES know of asha'man (at least the term), indeed it reads "That tottering old man was an Asha'man!" maybe the exclamation could have been meant to lend added surprise to his reaction, because he should have realized it even sooner?

 

I'm also curious if anyone super astute has noted whether or not flinn was wearing his black coat and pins, the day of the cleansing. I mean if we know anything about robert jordan it should be in there, a chapter or two back. if he WAS wearing the get-up I will concede yes, it is probably pretty unlikely demandred is taim. but if he was wearing something else I feel like it could still be a possibility

 

an even more valid question would be, wouldn't FLINN have recognized demandred if he were taim? the way elza recognized dashiva? I can't recall if we ever had flinn's reactions to the encounter, but he would have said something to rand

 

the Shadow doesn't have a supply of bodies on hand.

what, sure they do. but you're probably right insofar as they wouldn't waste the effort (on him OR asmo) because they have shown themselves to be too much of a failure

 

who is the lord of chaos? its really not rand?? :o

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Lord of Chaos isnt a person. Its the same thing as that prophecy about Rand and the Aiel, where it says he will slay them with the sword of peace. Peace isnt a sword, obviously, but it means peace is like a sword in this situation.

 

Let the Lord of Chaos rule = serve chaos as if it was your lord.

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aw man! you see,

 

I am going to remove the taint from the male half of the Source," he announced. The three Asha'man, now in plain dark coats and cloaks like the other Warders, exchanged excited glances, but a ripple passed through the Aes Sedai.

 

where's jordan's quote in regards to taim / demandred? anyone? now I'm curious as to the exact wording especially in light of it seems a lot of people like to distort the actual meaning of his words

 

@drekka ohhh.....are you sure? I mean, where did everyone learn that? I missed it somehow altho it makes sense

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aw man! you see,

 

I am going to remove the taint from the male half of the Source," he announced. The three Asha'man, now in plain dark coats and cloaks like the other Warders, exchanged excited glances, but a ripple passed through the Aes Sedai.

 

where's jordan's quote in regards to taim / demandred? anyone? now I'm curious as to the exact wording especially in light of it seems a lot of people like to distort the actual meaning of his words

 

@drekka ohhh.....are you sure? I mean, where did everyone learn that? I missed it somehow altho it makes sense

 

There are a few references all over the place, mostly from Sammael with his comments about the Shaido and such like. "Small increases in chaos are as important as large ones" or words to that effect. Stuff like that. Theyre never said in relation to Rand, or anyone in particular.

 

Plus, let Rand rule would pretty much go against half of what the Forsaken are doing because theyre doing their best to stop him from uniting the place.

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Lord of Chaos isnt a person. Its the same thing as that prophecy about Rand and the Aiel, where it says he will slay them with the sword of peace. Peace isnt a sword, obviously, but it means peace is like a sword in this situation.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule = serve chaos as if it was your lord.

That's what I believe too. I've seen a lot of debate here that it means either Rand or the DO. I don't think it ultimately matters but I feel it simply means "let the chaos rule" without any particular personification (which in any case is not necessary). Certainly that's how the Forsaken interpret the message - as a command to sow Chaos.

However, I don't necessarily agree about the "sword of Peace". I believe in Terez's theory that it means the sword Justice that Rand now carries and that he'll use it in some symbolic fashion when the Peace of the Dragon is made which will include the Aiel.

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but isn't rand prophesied to bring chaos to everything? (like how many nations did he leave in upheaval) I thought the great lord simply meant, step back and let rand do what he does best (blunder through ignorance such as founding the black tower, giving complete control of it to taim and saying, "make me weapons") and whatever you do, don't kill him yet.....which was why sammael was fretting so much about rand going to war with him

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but isn't rand prophesied to bring chaos to everything? (like how many nations did he leave in upheaval) I thought the great lord simply meant, step back and let rand do what he does best (blunder through ignorance such as founding the black tower, giving complete control of it to taim and saying, "make me weapons") and whatever you do, don't kill him yet.....which was why sammael was fretting so much about rand going to war with him

That's a popular opinion but I'm not sure it's correct. Various Forsaken mention on multiple occasions the DOs command to actively cause chaos, not simply let Rand go about it. The DO certainly did order them not to harm Rand but it might be a separate command. The DO definitely had special plans for Rand the chief among them was the goal of turning Rand (and he almost succeeded in that too). It also never made sense to me that the Forsaken among all people would consider Rand the Lord of Chaos. They knew LT as the top leader of the Light in their time, who did very well organizing the resistance to the DO, hardly any kind of Lord of Chaos. Ishy is the only one of the bunch who has more involved views of Rand. LT and other male channelers certainly caused plenty of chaos during the breaking but the Forsaken were all trapped at that time and witnessed none of it first hand.

 

BTW, Taim (whoever he is) is definitely a deliberate plant by the Dark forces. He hardly qualifies as letting Rand do what he wants.

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during the Cleansing, Demandred sees Flinn (one of the Asha'man) and doesn't recognise him, doesn't even realise there are Asha'man of that age. Taim would know Flinn, as he was there when Taim arrived at the BT.

ahhh yes I forgot all about that...good times.

 

wait, but hasn't flinn been with rand for an awfully long time now?

Not all that long - a matter of months.
maybe even since dumai's wells? perhaps he is just beneath taim's notice? (that would jive with the arrogance of not only taim but also demandred). so on a whim I went back and reread that scene (was mostly curious about lanfear actually) and you're right, demandred doesn't recognize flinn at all.
Glad to hear you say that.
Gonzo: Did Demandred recognize Flinn in the last chapter of Winter's Heart?

RJ: RAFO.

Gonzo: Would Taim have recognised Flinn, in that position?

RJ: Yes.

So Demandred doesn't recognise Flinn, but Taim definitely would have.

 

the Shadow doesn't have a supply of bodies on hand.

what, sure they do.

They don't stockpile suitable bodies. There has to be one on hand. Not all bodies are suitable for transmigration.

 

 

where's jordan's quote in regards to taim / demandred? anyone? now I'm curious as to the exact wording especially in light of it seems a lot of people like to distort the actual meaning of his words
There are several of them. Theoryland has a databse of all the RJ and BS interviews, so here come a few quotes:
Why do you think RJ straight up said that Taim wasn't Demandred when he could've just said RAFO and kept everyone guessing?

 

Brandon:

I think he was tired of people all looking in the same place.

There's no way in hell that Demandred ISN'T Taim.

 

Brandon - 10:15 pm

Except, you know, RJ saying five or six times he wasn't...

Someone asked for clarification about whether we had seen Mesaana's and Demandred's alter-egos on screen. Sanderson said that we had seen Mesaana's alter-ego on screen as of Knife of Dreams, but that we had not seen Demandred's alter-ego on screen as of Knife of Dreams. Sanderson would not elaborate on whether Demandred's alter-ego had been seen in The Gathering Storm—Sanderson didn't want to narrow down the suspects for us if Demandred really had appeared in The Gathering Storm.
Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you.

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

Jordan: I was surprised...but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while. I like to watch you squirm.

Q: Is Taim Demandred?

RJ: No, that is totally bogus

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Matthew Julius reporting

 

Q: It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that.

RJ: Mazrim Taim is not Demandred.

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton OH - Michael Martin reporting

 

Q: Have we yet seen the alter-ego Demandred presents to the Third-Agers on-screen?

A: NO. (I asked twice to make sure.)

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?

RJ: (Disgusted) I've said that before, and it's not Taim, it's Ta-eeem.

As you cn see, RJ was asked about this a lot. Also, there's the question of the multiple orders in WH - Taim, Demandred and Moridin all give orders to the renegade Asha'man. Why would Demandred bother with two kill orders on Rand, one given as himself one as Taim? Why tell them not to let Taim know about Demandred's order? There really is no way to spin it to make Taimandred true.

 

 

I thought the great lord simply meant, step back and let rand do what he does best (blunder through ignorance such as founding the black tower, giving complete control of it to taim and saying, "make me weapons") and whatever you do, don't kill him yet.....which was why sammael was fretting so much about rand going to war with him
In the book the phrase is introduced in, the Shadow has a plan to kidnap Rand and stuff him in a box - that doesn't really fit with letting Rand do what he does best. Later, we see the phrase again in KoD, when Semi says it (about her recent murder of the Seanchan Imperial family) and then when Taim says it (about Reds bonding Asha'man). Neither really relates to letting Rand rule. Also, while Rand has made mistakes he has also brought much order. Countries are unified, rebellions ended. Putting Taim in charge of the Asha'man hasn't really resulted in much chaos.
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these are all great questions in the OP. i havent read the book since it came out so i forgot a lot, but would be great to see a full response to everything. lots of questions and remarks are familiar though and i agree with the rating, i enjoyed ToM for 8 3/4, i'd go so far as a 9 :)

Edited by lsm
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hmmmmmmmmm in light of all those quotes it does seem pretty debunked, I mean a few of them lend themself to the aes sedai-answer theory but all of them together, if they're all reliable I'd say make it a pretty big stretch.

 

so why would they confirm demandred's not having been seen up through #11, but then refuse to do so for #12-13? is that why people are looking at all the new characters who appeared since book 12? lol where is that thread again...

 

the Shadow has a plan to kidnap Rand and stuff him in a box

well technically wasn't that elaida's plan? she added some kind of "by any means necessary" clause to her orders or something? I mean I know the black ajah was behind elaida being raised but alviarin was not yet pwning her every move, actually the dumai's wells debacle was one of the things which allowed her to start that later. also I remember galina was head of black ajah at the time and also became head of the tower embassy once it degenerated into outright kidnapping, also by elaida's order...but that doesn't necessarily mean the plot originated from the shadow, the forsaken or even the black ajah, though they were probably quite pleased to go along with elaida's orders in that instance.

 

ok...thats an inconsequential...technicality

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All the Lord of Chaos theories have merit simply because the term is too vague to pin it on anything specific.

'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' could refer to Rand, and as Shaidar Haran said, 'If Sammael served Chaos all was good, If not...'

 

It can look very much like the Forsaken are deliberately making it difficult for Rand to rule, and trusting that Rand will lose his humanity through his lack of leadership experience and anger/frustration at how nothing he does ever seems to work according to how he wants. Arad Doman, the Seanchan, the Shaido, Masema's following, Aes Sedai, - all of these groups were influenced by the Forsaken and led to Darth Rand which is what the DO wanted.

 

Now counter to that- Rand doesnt have to be the 'Lord of Chaos' for any of the above to apply anyway. Even if it just meant serving chaos itself, it would still lead Rand to where he went.

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so why would they confirm demandred's not having been seen up through #11, but then refuse to do so for #12-13?
Team Jordan have got to keep us busy somehow.

 

the Shadow has a plan to kidnap Rand and stuff him in a box

well technically wasn't that elaida's plan?

Mostly Elaida's plan, but:ACoS,Ch20 - Sammael tells Graendal he didn't kidnap Rand. Mesaana had a hand in it, maybe Demandred and Semirhage as well despite how it ended. That's from EncyclopaediaWoT.
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