Mat's Luck

[Negawonka]

A thought occurred to me yesterday (and forgive me if it has been brought up) but Mat's luck seems to have gotten better after he lost his dice. Everyone is probably aware of the dice Ter'angreal that the black ajah "stole", what if Lanfear slipped that into his possessions instead and those were the dice that he lost in the land of the finn's? They aren't suppose to increase luck specifically, I believe they are described as being able to "alter or suspend chance" which is not the same as increasing luck. This whole time he could have actually had them acting as a yolk of sorts, restraining his luck and forcing it to get stronger to be able to keep himself in line with what the pattern spun him out for. Sort of like if you wore weights on your ankles, eventually you wouldn't notice the weight anymore and your body would achieve equilibrium. Once taken off though . . .

 

So what do you guys think? As I see it those dice either A) will show up in the next book or B) have been under our noses the whole time.

 

EDIT: The part that occurred to me was about the dice, not Mat's luck getting better. Sorry if I phrased that poorly.

[SheaththeSword]

If they 'suspend chance' then surely they would have severly hampered his luck on occasion, as that DEPENDED on chance, and his Ta'veren-ness to alter it.

[FarShainMael]

We see the dice ter'a in TDR25, where it is described as a carved cluster of six dice. Someone would have to separate this into six separate dice.

[SheaththeSword]

We see the dice ter'a in TDR25, where it is described as a carved cluster of six dice. Someone would have to separate this into six separate dice.

..

It carved cluster of six spotted dice connected at the corners. It is about two inches across. Its use is unknown, but channeling into it warps chance.

So even were they on his person, they'd do nothing.

 

In what way do you mean his luck has gotten better since he lost his dice? It would have been much luckier to be led back to the way he came in, he might not even have thought of slicing the walls to get out after all.

[Negawonka]

If they 'suspend chance' then surely they would have severly hampered his luck on occasion, as that DEPENDED on chance, and his Ta'veren-ness to alter it.

 

Suspend or alter chance yes, both of which would severely hamper his luck - which is my point. It seemed to me that his luck rose steadily throughout the series. In book three he is described as winning 8 times in 9 while later on in the series it is commented that if he ever lost the band would be worried. Much in the same way that a person with weights on their feet would progressively get stronger until they were able to preform normally with the weights on.

 

We see the dice ter'a in TDR25, where it is described as a carved cluster of six dice. Someone would have to separate this into six separate dice.

 

True, but that might not be particularly difficult and if Lanfear was the one that planted it on him it would only be difficult for her to separate them if they were made of cuendillar. Or it could even be that they only appeared to be attached at the corners and through some long lost method they were detached from each other by Lanfear. Lanfear was a researcher after all and probably knows a great deal about ter'angreal that are not understood in the current age.

 

So even were they on his person, they'd do nothing.

 

In what way do you mean his luck has gotten better since he lost his dice? It would have been much luckier to be led back to the way he came in, he might not even have thought of slicing the walls to get out after all.

 

You can't view Mat's luck in that way, since it exists to help stabilize the pattern - not to make all of his wishes come true. Oh with small things his luck works, but it would imbalance the pattern (and make the story really boring) if everything was easy for Mat because of his luck. If his luck worked that way, all he would have to do is lay out every word known to him and throw a bunch of rocks into the air. They would land on the words that would form the description of how to defeat the Dark One (or anything else he wanted to know). As for how his luck got better . . . when he accidentally fetches dinner and finds a usable cooking pot (forget exactly what it was) that seems to be quite a bit luckier than he has been in the past.

 

Also if I remember correctly, Mat did seem to be unusually hesitant to leave a simple pair of dice behind. To me that would indicate that he has had those dice for a very long time and they hold some sentimental attachment for him.

 

I think Mat's dicing days are about done with in the series and can't really see a reason why he would gamble with anyone (in a way that the ter'angreal would have any effect) in this last book. Sure Demandred is a gambler and great general like Mat and I do believe they will face off, but I can't imagine Mat sitting down across from a Forsaken and having a dice off . . . and that is if Demandred would even have the ter'angreal. We have no indication anywhere that he has had any dealings with those 13 that stole the ter'angreal. We know those 13 stole the dice ter'angreal, but what are the odds that Demandred (or anyone else besides Moggy or Moridin maybe) would know that? Since I can't believe RJ would put them in for no reason other than to get a comment out of the wonder girls about Mat liking to gamble, they must serve some purpose.

[Superhal]

We know from Elayne's experiences that the shape, form, substance, and possibly even color all contribute to a ter'angreal's function. It's highly unlikely that a ter'angreal altered from it's original shape will work. All ter'angreal that have been broken throughout the books have ceased functioning.

[Negawonka]

Yes, but we don't know that separating them would break them - or that they weren't meant to be separated. Channeling into them is suppose to make them work, but what if that is just because for them to work they need to be separated and they are responding to the channeling temporarily?

[SheaththeSword]

You think while joined together they are a more regular ter'angreal, requiring channeling to work, but seperated they become a more comlex angreal that works without channeling? I suppose it could be possible, there are weaves attached to doors and letter boxes and the like that active only when opened - why not one that only activates when the dice are seperated? It's pure specualtion, but it doesn't seem impossible.

[GrizBehr]

While I don't agree with the theory that Mat's dice were the Ter'angreal, I understand the point. Nobody (exception Forsaken possibly) knows how they work. It is possible that in non-activated form they are joined together. Once activated with the power they come apart, altering chance for the possessor until they are de-activated with the power at which point they are joined together.

[SheaththeSword]

IIRC, channeling into them (and leaving them together), and then flipping a coin a hundred/1000 times into it always landed heads/on its side, something like that? Sorry this is so vague, i wouldn't have a clue where to start looking for a quote. Could be in the BWB. Aes Sedai experiments yeilded this result - I think i would have been mentioned if the things had come apart as a result.

 

Is it just spirit that one should use with it, or could different flows or even weaves alter chance in different ways?

[Negawonka]

IIRC, channeling into them (and leaving them together), and then flipping a coin a hundred/1000 times into it always landed heads/on its side, something like that? Sorry this is so vague, i wouldn't have a clue where to start looking for a quote. Could be in the BWB. Aes Sedai experiments yeilded this result - I think i would have been mentioned if the things had come apart as a result.

 

Is it just spirit that one should use with it, or could different flows or even weaves alter chance in different ways?

 

They tested them (presumably) with simple flows that they believed to be safe. Even if they had used complex flows, what would be the odds that they would channel a weave necessary to fully activate it when the creators who designed it surely did not pass down that knowledge.

 

Think of the dice ter'angreal as a car. If it was in neutral you could push it and it would move (channeling into it causes it to suspend or alter chance as long as you are channeling into it and they cannot be separated) and someone who had no knowledge of what a car is might think it is just a heavy wagon or carriage. Now someone who has knowledge of cars even in the most general sense and knows where the key is (or how to hot wire it) can simply start it up and not only get it to work on it's own without the need for pushing, but will also be able to change the basic shape of the vehicle (such as rolling down the windows, popping the hood and trunk, ect.). To alter or suspend chance, the ter'angreal has to be incredibly complex - so complex as to make features such as an auto-pilot mode and the ability to detach itself seem very simple.

 

I am not saying there is proof of this, but given the current situation and that it is highly unlikely they will have no part to play the most likely place for them to be is right under our noses. I can't imagine RJ would have put them in for no reason and I also do not find it even remotely likely that there will be a situation where they would be useful in the next book. The only things they would effect would be small things like the rolls of dice or the toss of a coin - nothing that would benefit one of the forsaken (or anyone except maybe Mat) since it is unlikely anything will be decided by those methods.

[Finnssss22]

They weren't Mat's only set of dice though, they weren't even the only set he brought with him in there.

He even says as much right after that first set was taken and only gave up throwing another set because he knew they would just get taken as well.

 

Would be a cool theory if there was more to go on but it's just too thin for me.

[Hyronimus]

I imagine that the dice were developed by observing the pattern's own naturally occuring example of posibility twisting; Taveren.

 

Channalling seems to take advantage of the posibilities within the pattern- like egewen figuring out gateways by observing Tar.

 

I find it interesting how these discoveries come more instinctivly for those strong channellers like egwene and rand (strong in all powers right, especially spirit?) compared to those, strong or not, who are 'talented'.

 

I digress.

 

The dice act as foreshadowing for the taverans' natures, and Mat's in particular. i was attracted to this thread because mat has always struck me as singular in his abilities. Rand and Perrin both have a complemetary ability in addition to, and often superceding their taveran nature. But mat has no easily named talent. His Finn given memories aside, he is a strangly strong, localised, personalised version of taveran.

 

Why? Perrin and Rand are fortunate in that things fall into place for them, and they effect the people(and now the earth) around them. But while Mat does this as well in a way, his taveran effect, espesially now, is the most directed(right word?). I believe it has been suggested that it came from his exposure to the taint from shadar logoth, and even comparasons made with the fain's luck.

 

I guess that part of what made mat, mat, in this turning of the wheel was worn away (like an acid burn)by his exposure to the taint. It's based mostly on the fact that his memories around that time were lost, and the way that mashadar kills by effecting the soul( prevents resurection for example).

 

making a bit of a leap, i feel like his soul-thread in the pattern is over-compensating, resulting in his particular form of taveran effect. A taveren scar.

 

I'm interested to know what people think it is that mat will bring to the bore closing proccess that makes his particular nature necessary (or not i guess).

 

Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble or there is a better thread for it, but mat is still one major puzzle for me!

[Lisa Campbell]

If they 'suspend chance' then surely they would have severly hampered his luck on occasion, as that DEPENDED on chance, and his Ta'veren-ness to alter it.

 

Suspend or alter chance yes, both of which would severely hamper his luck - which is my point. It seemed to me that his luck rose steadily throughout the series. In book three he is described as winning 8 times in 9 while later on in the series it is commented that if he ever lost the band would be worried. Much in the same way that a person with weights on their feet would progressively get stronger until they were able to preform normally with the weights on.

 

We see the dice ter'a in TDR25, where it is described as a carved cluster of six dice. Someone would have to separate this into six separate dice.

 

True, but that might not be particularly difficult and if Lanfear was the one that planted it on him it would only be difficult for her to separate them if they were made of cuendillar. Or it could even be that they only appeared to be attached at the corners and through some long lost method they were detached from each other by Lanfear. Lanfear was a researcher after all and probably knows a great deal about ter'angreal that are not understood in the current age.

 

So even were they on his person, they'd do nothing.

 

In what way do you mean his luck has gotten better since he lost his dice? It would have been much luckier to be led back to the way he came in, he might not even have thought of slicing the walls to get out after all.

 

You can't view Mat's luck in that way, since it exists to help stabilize the pattern - not to make all of his wishes come true. Oh with small things his luck works, but it would imbalance the pattern (and make the story really boring) if everything was easy for Mat because of his luck. If his luck worked that way, all he would have to do is lay out every word known to him and throw a bunch of rocks into the air. They would land on the words that would form the description of how to defeat the Dark One (or anything else he wanted to know). As for how his luck got better . . . when he accidentally fetches dinner and finds a usable cooking pot (forget exactly what it was) that seems to be quite a bit luckier than he has been in the past.

 

Also if I remember correctly, Mat did seem to be unusually hesitant to leave a simple pair of dice behind. To me that would indicate that he has had those dice for a very long time and they hold some sentimental attachment for him.

 

I think Mat's dicing days are about done with in the series and can't really see a reason why he would gamble with anyone (in a way that the ter'angreal would have any effect) in this last book. Sure Demandred is a gambler and great general like Mat and I do believe they will face off, but I can't imagine Mat sitting down across from a Forsaken and having a dice off . . . and that is if Demandred would even have the ter'angreal. We have no indication anywhere that he has had any dealings with those 13 that stole the ter'angreal. We know those 13 stole the dice ter'angreal, but what are the odds that Demandred (or anyone else besides Moggy or Moridin maybe) would know that? Since I can't believe RJ would put them in for no reason other than to get a comment out of the wonder girls about Mat liking to gamble, they must serve some purpose.

 

Agreed that that Ter'angreal was out of the Tower before Mat or Lanfear arrived. Personally I don't think that they have been activated yet but could make a difference with whoever Moghedean has to fight in the near future. When thinking about it in that light, I think it is highly likely that Mogs will fight Mat in the very near future.

[csarmi]

I don't remember where exactly, but I think this theory had been debunked by RJ.

[Negawonka]

I would very much like to see this quote since it would definitely change my opinion on the subject. I still hold to that those dice will have some importance in the last book.