What are the best/worst prophecies?

[Superhal]

Here's a list of the different types of prophecies. Which do you think are the best? Which are the worst?

 

1. Karethon cycle, Jendai prophecy, Seanchan prophecy: all from the same source, AS from the end of the AoL up to the Trolloc Wars. Let's assume that "kneeling to the crystal throne" is a known discrepancy and not included.

2. AS' Fortelling after the Trolloc Wars, including Eladia's, Gitara Moroso, Nicola, and the AS relative of the Borderland king.

3. Dreaming: Dreamwalkers, Wolf Dream, etc.

4. Min's aura visions.

5. Finn answers.

6. Portal stone visions.

7. Ter'angreal visions, either testing for Accepted or Apprentices.

8. Exclusions: Dark Prophecies, wolf memories, Seanchan omens (we don't know enough about them to judge.)

 

(If I forgot any, let me know.) :)

[FarShainMael]

Sorry to be picky but I'm not quite with you, best how?

[buckeyebull64]

Best as in relieable? The top 5 all seem to be equally accurate, the problem is always interpretation. Of those, Min seems to know what her stuff means with the most frequency.

[OptimusPrime]

I like the Finns ones. They actually feel like definite future visions, not like some of the others. To live you must die... I think they view threads in the Pattern and when they said that, they were seeing Rand and Moridin as one thread. So for one to live the other must die.

 

Mins seem pointless. They arent even prophecies, they are possibilities. So whats the point?

 

The Dark Prophecies are bound to either fail or be missing something major, so Im not keen on them.

[herid]

best and worst in what sense? I don't understand the question.

 

best as in most reliable? most useful? delivered in the most interesting way?

 

There are a few that I consider useless because they convey no info. The worst of that lot is the dream that Egwene had in CoS, CH 10 about Gawyn choosing a fork in a road. One road leads to violent death, the other, long life. Down one road they marry, the other, not.

 

Seems quite useless to me because we don't even know if the fork with Gawyn's death is the one where they marry or the one where they don't. so all this dream says is that Gawyn will either live or die and that they will either marry or not. We knew that already without any dreams.

 

 

 

The Dark Prophecies are bound to either fail or be missing something major, so Im not keen on them.

No, Drekka, the Dark prophecies are just as valid as the Light ones. They will all resolve somehow. BS commented on that several times

 

 

Ty Margheim on Twitter 8 November 2010

Are the prophecies competing a la The Belgariad (by David Eddings), or are they complementary?

Brandon

Not competing like The Belgariad, and certainly not intelligent like in The Belgariad.3

Brandon

Some may be interpreted wrong, others may be recorded wrong, but there is not a this/that nature to them.

 

 

Pancakes and Fries, aka Brandon Does Amsterdam 31 May 2011 - Jarno reporting

 

Brandon made some nice remarks on prophecies. Knowing we wouldn't get anything specific he was asked about some general questions. Someone asked whether the differences between the Seanchan prophecies and the Karatheon Cycle were completely intentional, or just from natural changes in telling a story for a thousand years from generation to generation. Brandon said it was a bit of both. He compared it with the story of Beowulf, how a scribe creating a new copy would change one line to make it more Christian, or to make their interpretation more clear. This combined with some influence by the Dark One and his minions makes it complicated. He added that it is not that one of the two is true and the other false. They might be on some things, on others both can be true even if it seems to be a contradiction. It's all in the interpretation of the prophecies which is a tricky business. He also remarked that the Darkfriends also have their prophecies, Foretellings and Dreamers whose predictions are just as valid as the ones from the Light. Being dark prophecies doesn't invalidate them.

[Superhal]

Sorry to be picky but I'm not quite with you, best how?

 

Up to you, I left that open...most efficient, most reliable, etc. I also thought about how almost everything comes true, but then not all of them do. :)

[Kal11]

Personally I am of the opinion that Moridin is a Dreamer and primary source of the Dark Prophecies, just seems like his realm of interest and ability. Given he was free of the Bore for long periods it would make sense he was seeding them when out. I am pretty sure RJ confirmed he had an effect on the Seanchan versions, but I could be remembering wrong.

[Goldstar]

The Karaetheon Cycle is, imo, horrible. It's too straightforward. If you know who the prophecies are talking about, it's not very hard to decipher them. The Wolf King, the Gambler, the Dragon, etc.

[yoniy0]

If we're being picky, the Essanik cycle was given by Seanchan damane, i.e., definitely post-Hawkwing, not pre-Trolloc wars.

 

I actually like the KC the best. It's been with us the longest, and it's fun to watch things unfold.

 

PS

Someone should seriously ask Brandon about what Lanfear and Rand both said - that prophecies only set the terms required for something to happen (or, as Lanfear put it, they are merely a sign of people's hopes). Are they simply wrong? Why would they, both AoL-uber-channelers, hold misguided notions in this area?

[Lama Chemist Ho]

Mins seem pointless. They arent even prophecies, they are possibilities.

I thought -when she knew what they meant- they always came true? or at least don't lots of characters claim that

[Superhal]

If we're being picky, the Essanik cycle was given by Seanchan damane, i.e., definitely post-Hawkwing, not pre-Trolloc wars.

 

 

In the faq, it says the Seanchan prophecies were the Karethon Cycle brought by Hawkwing's son to Seanchan.

[yoniy0]

In the faq, it says the Seanchan prophecies were the Karethon Cycle brought by Hawkwing's son to Seanchan.

The KC the Seanchan have is (pretty much) the same one they have in Randland. I thought you meant the Essanik Cycle when you said "Seanchan prophecies". My apologies.

[Superhal]

In the faq, it says the Seanchan prophecies were the Karethon Cycle brought by Hawkwing's son to Seanchan.

The KC the Seanchan have is (pretty much) the same one they have in Randland. I thought you meant the Essanik Cycle when you said "Seanchan prophecies". My apologies.

 

Yep I thought they were the same, except for the line about the DR kneeling before the crystal throne.

 

One of the interviews states that the KC and EC are from the same source but they were translated differently.

 

Is there a reference that the EC is solely from Seanchan channelers?

[yoniy0]

One of the interviews states that the KC and EC are from the same source but they were translated differently.

Oh, no, they are quite different. I'd like to see that quote, if you remember where you saw it.

 

Is there a reference that the EC is solely from Seanchan channelers?

Why, of course:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Question: We know that the Karaethon Cycle and the Essanik Cycle are different. Is that because there were different contributors to each, or some other reason (like tampering by Ishamael)? Which is more correct?

Answer: The Essanik cycle had only in Seanchan and there were different contributors. Which is more correct? I’m not going to say which is more correct. There has been tampering…

Question: In both?

Answer: People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what the Essanik cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.

[OptimusPrime]

Mins seem pointless. They arent even prophecies, they are possibilities.

I thought -when she knew what they meant- they always came true? or at least don't lots of characters claim that

 

Yea but Im pretty sure an RJ quote somewhere said something like, some of her post-Last Battle viewings were dependant on, not reflective of, the Dark One not breaking free.

[BKVMC]

Dont think we have ANY prophecys dealing with post Last battle other than Mins ( if the DO doesnt break free).

[Superhal]

Dont think we have ANY prophecys dealing with post Last battle other than Mins ( if the DO doesnt break free).

 

Nope. Just like how all the histories and past lives begin about 400 years before the end of the AoL.

 

Also, I'm not sure Min's go past TG either. Everything could arguably happen at or before TG.

 

Avi's future vision is about the only thing, but there's no guarantee about ter'angreal visions. Moiraine, who probably got the same visions also using ter'angreals, saw multiple outcomes.

[Apple13]

Well, if we're talking about which ones are most important or useful:

 

I think the best would be the Prophecies of the Dragon, because they are the most important to the storyline. I like the Aelfinn/Eelfinn prophecies too, again because they are very important to the storyline, especially concerning Mat.

 

Other than that, I always thought of Min's visions as sort of pointless. We don't really need her visions to tell us what's going to happen most of the time, since a lot of what she sees is self-evident anyways. Plus they usually relate only to specific characters, which makes them less important to the story as a whole.

[buckeyebull64]

Here's a question: why are they called "cycles"? A lot of things in WOT are cyclical (wheel of time, rebirth, etc.) in nature, but what about sets of prophesies makes them cyclical?