Rand's fate

[Southpaw89]

as I said in the description, this isn't a will Rand die topic. I'd say around 95% of WoT readers assume he's gonna die at some point in AMoL. My question is, what will his ultimate fate be at the end of it? There are two popular theories I've read:

 

1. He dies, gets resurrected, saves the world then goes into hiding

 

2. He dies, gets resurrected, saves the world but then dies in the process and stays dead

 

An interesting RJ quote that Harriet read aloud that RJ said about Rand one time was, "He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone." I believe he was talking about Rand in the broad sense of the series meaning he will no longer be in the forefront of the world at the ending of AMoL meaning one of the two above theories is likely to be accurate. Based on texts, prophecies, viewings, etc, what do you guys think Rand's ultimate fate will be?

 

I support #2

[FarShainMael]

I also support (2), with the variation that I think the die/resurrect bit has already happened in VoG, as I've posted elsewhere.

 

I think Rand will die twice, based on:

 

"Twice and twice shall he be marked,

Twice to live and twice to die."

 

So I think he's now on his second life (as Rand Sedai). And after his second death, he won't be coming back. Like the wind, he'll have gone.

 

As to his second death, there are viewings from Min in ToM of Rand which seem relevant:

 

An open cavern, gaping like a mouth. Bloodstained rocks. Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs, a pipe with smoke curling from it.

 

"I see dark clouds pushed away by the sunlight's warmth. I see you, a brilliant white sword held in your hand, wielded against one of black, held by a faceless darkness. I see trees , growing green again, bearing fruit. I see a field, the crops healthy and full." She hesitated. "I see the Two Rivers, Rand. I see an inn there with the mark of the Dragon's Fang inlaid on the door. No longer be a symbol of darkness or hate. A sign of victory and hope."

 

Rand reached out, touching {Callandor}. She glanced at him, and a viewing sprang to life above him. A glowing sword, Callandor, being gripped in a black hand. She gasped.

 

"What did you see?" Rand asked softly.

 

"Callandor, held in a fist. The hand looks to be made of onyx."

 

"Any idea what it means?"

 

She shook her head.

 

Also, in EotW9, Rand dreams of Thakan'dar in some detail (including black and silver clouds!) The dream seemed to be caused by Ishy, but Rand recognised the area he was apparently in.

 

And of course there are the prophecies about his blood staining the rocks of Shayol Ghul, and Min's viewing of black rock wet with blood (EotW15).

 

It seems from these that after Rand has organised the Forces of The Light he would leave them as he said he would (ToM32), and go to Shayol Ghul to face the DO. He won't do this in T'A'R because SG cannot be reached from there, so he must still be alive when he does this. The prophecy

 

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation.

 

suggests that he will die in this encounter - though how is a question! The 'rocks of SG' may be the actual ground there, or it may be the Bloodrings, which give certain powers but kill in the end; or it may be a reference somehow to that onyx hand, which may be a prosthesis of sorts.

 

But I think if we see Rand at all after the LB, it will be as a dead Hero in T'A'R.

 

Min's viewing of post-TG Two Rivers is the effect Rand has on the world.. but he is no longer in that world.

[herid]

 

 

Min's viewing of post-TG Two Rivers is the effect Rand has on the world.. but he is no longer in that world.

Min never had any viewings like that. All her viewings thus far involved the person being viewed quite directly. I see no reason to believe why this should suddenly change for this particular viewing. That viewing is the reason why I'm pretty sure #1 is correct and not #2 and Rand will still be alive at the time that viewing resolves.

[OptimusPrime]

Personally, I think AMoL could be full of Rand deaths.

 

I think Rand will die more than once, possibly as many as three times, and survive them all. But my personal belief is that it'll happen twice, and he will be alive after both.

 

First, Demandred kills him and smiles... but then Moridin balefires Demandred, after a really nice evil chat.

 

Then at Shayol Ghul the whole sacrificial death happens where Rand becomes Randzamon and the Callandor crew (Narishma, Alivia and Nynaeve) kill him with Callandor, Rand moves a hairswidth just at the right time to swap bodies with Moridin, and Callandor actually kills Moridin. Rand walks away in Taims body, nobody recognising the face as Taim anymore because all this time Moridin had been walking around as Taim with the True Power altered face.

 

Now, this bit is the sketchiest bit... but I think it'd be AWESOME if just before the end, Nynaeve was mourning for Rand because she didnt know about the bodyswap thing, so she goes to T'A'R and finds "Rand" waiting there, all burnt to a crisp and eyeless and everything, which Nynaeve saw come to pass but is still horified at the sight of. Determined that she can Heal death AND the burns, but not the eyes, she does the Birgitte thing to Moridin, completely oblivious...

 

And the last scene would be a Rand PoV where hes in the boat with the harem, and a face appears in his vision, his old face, severely burnt, but laughing-Moridin, in Rands body, blindfolded, side wounded and carrying a "beggars" staff... the finished Fisher King image we see on the sha'ra board...

 

I just think, that if Rand is alive at the end, then Ishamael should be as well.

[Southpaw89]

the beggers staff happened in TGS before he goes to Dragonmount if I remember correctly

[OptimusPrime]

the beggers staff happened in TGS before he goes to Dragonmount if I remember correctly

 

Ah but the blindfold hasnt yet! Unless that was a metaphor on Rand being "blind" all this time, maybe it was that, but still. I think it'd be awesome if Moridin was alive and in Rands fractured body at the end.

[XXX]

The blinded stuff has IMO already happened with the dragonmount scene..and one death also has happened there(zen Rand incarnation)..I believe he will die once more and stay dead. As he says to Egwene there are no endings.

[Durinax]

I think that what will happen is the Champions soul shall be seized by the DO, as per mins research "all he is can be seized" (or whatever it was I am paraphrasing).

 

but since he is not dead, the callandor connection becomes important, becasue of the connectino he is able to put more of a fight to the DO who overstretches to try and take the champion of light in such a manner. Then I have no idea.

 

but I quite like Rand returning to the TR's and becoming a farmer, as referenced by tam 'when you come back boy we will have a flock twice as big for you to look after'

[FarShainMael]

 

 

Min's viewing of post-TG Two Rivers is the effect Rand has on the world.. but he is no longer in that world.

Min never had any viewings like that. All her viewings thus far involved the person being viewed quite directly. I see no reason to believe why this should suddenly change for this particular viewing. That viewing is the reason why I'm pretty sure #1 is correct and not #2 and Rand will still be alive at the time that viewing resolves.

 

Granted your point about those viewings we have seen on-screen, this is one of those which we have only heard Min describe - like the one where she tells Rand Alivia is going to kill him, and he corrects her to 'help me die', for example. There was also a viewing early on in the series, which Min does not tell Rand all about until much later on - the one in EotW and TFoH50, where she finally tells Rand that she saw she would fall in love with him.

 

With this in mind, let's look again at Tom25:

 

"A viewing. I see dark clouds, pushed away by the sunlight's warmth. I see you, a brilliant white sword held in your hand, wielded against one of black, held by a faceless darkness. I see trees, growing green again, bearing fruit. I see a field, the crops growing healthy and full." She hesitated. "I see the Two Rivers, Rand. I see an inn there with the mark of the Dragon's Fang inlaid on the door. No longer be a symbol of darkness or hate. A sign of victory and hope."

 

Why did she hesitate? What is she not telling him?

 

Also, why is she saying 'be a symbol'?

[Durinax]

because the dragon fang was a symbol of evil, it was used to incite violence against individuals. She is saying that will change

[FarShainMael]

because the dragon fang was a symbol of evil, it was used to incite violence against individuals. She is saying that will change

 

Yes I do know that.. but she does not say "You will no longer be a symbol of darkness or hate." It reads more like an instruction or suggestion.

[OptimusPrime]

 

 

Min's viewing of post-TG Two Rivers is the effect Rand has on the world.. but he is no longer in that world.

Min never had any viewings like that. All her viewings thus far involved the person being viewed quite directly. I see no reason to believe why this should suddenly change for this particular viewing. That viewing is the reason why I'm pretty sure #1 is correct and not #2 and Rand will still be alive at the time that viewing resolves.

 

Granted your point about those viewings we have seen on-screen, this is one of those which we have only heard Min describe - like the one where she tells Rand Alivia is going to kill him, and he corrects her to 'help me die', for example. There was also a viewing early on in the series, which Min does not tell Rand all about until much later on - the one in EotW and TFoH50, where she finally tells Rand that she saw she would fall in love with him.

 

With this in mind, let's look again at Tom25:

 

"A viewing. I see dark clouds, pushed away by the sunlight's warmth. I see you, a brilliant white sword held in your hand, wielded against one of black, held by a faceless darkness. I see trees, growing green again, bearing fruit. I see a field, the crops growing healthy and full." She hesitated. "I see the Two Rivers, Rand. I see an inn there with the mark of the Dragon's Fang inlaid on the door. No longer be a symbol of darkness or hate. A sign of victory and hope."

 

Why did she hesitate? What is she not telling him?

 

Well. Do you remember a while back, like in the early books, when Rand was seeing Ba'alzy and suddenly the face was his own? I cant remember when it was... but I think Min might be seeing two possibilities at once there. Im not sure though. She could be seeing Rand using Callandor, and she might have seen something about the faceless darkness that she wasnt revealing (like, its Rand).

 

I stand by my theory that Rand will be possessed by the Dark One and its the outcome entity that is holding the black sword, and it will be Narishma Alivia and Nynaeve linked that use Callandor against him.

[herid]

 

 

Min's viewing of post-TG Two Rivers is the effect Rand has on the world.. but he is no longer in that world.

Min never had any viewings like that. All her viewings thus far involved the person being viewed quite directly. I see no reason to believe why this should suddenly change for this particular viewing. That viewing is the reason why I'm pretty sure #1 is correct and not #2 and Rand will still be alive at the time that viewing resolves.

 

Granted your point about those viewings we have seen on-screen, this is one of those which we have only heard Min describe - like the one where she tells Rand Alivia is going to kill him, and he corrects her to 'help me die', for example. There was also a viewing early on in the series, which Min does not tell Rand all about until much later on - the one in EotW and TFoH50, where she finally tells Rand that she saw she would fall in love with him.

 

All of these viewings agree with my position. they directly involve the person being viewed.

 

With this in mind, let's look again at Tom25:

 

"A viewing. I see dark clouds, pushed away by the sunlight's warmth. I see you, a brilliant white sword held in your hand, wielded against one of black, held by a faceless darkness. I see trees, growing green again, bearing fruit. I see a field, the crops growing healthy and full." She hesitated. "I see the Two Rivers, Rand. I see an inn there with the mark of the Dragon's Fang inlaid on the door. No longer be a symbol of darkness or hate. A sign of victory and hope."

 

Why did she hesitate? What is she not telling him?

 

Also, why is she saying 'be a symbol'?

She hesitated because she was seeing a different viewing. There was a lot to see there and she didn't see it all at once. First she saw the very end of the LB. Then she saw the Two Rivers some time after the Last Battle is over.

 

As for the last question I agree with Durinax. She is talking of the fact that the Dragon Fang will no longer be feared as a sign of destruction but considered a sign of victory. The meaning seems very clear on this one. I see nothing of "instruction or suggestion" in that.

 

I see an inn there with the mark of the Dragon's Fang inlaid on the door. No longer be a symbol of darkness or hate. A sign of victory and hope."

She is describing the Dragon Fang, not Rand. It's a description, not a suggestion.

 

 

 

I think that what will happen is the Champions soul shall be seized by the DO, as per mins research "all he is can be seized" (or whatever it was I am paraphrasing).

 

but since he is not dead, the callandor connection becomes important, becasue of the connectino he is able to put more of a fight to the DO who overstretches to try and take the champion of light in such a manner. Then I have no idea.

yes, I also have a vague idea that "all that he is can be seized" means something along these lines that but no more than that. The only other possibility is that "all that he is" refers to the DO here but that seems rather unlikely.

[FarShainMael]

'No longer be a symbol' isn't a description. That would have to be something like 'It would no longer be a symbol'.

 

Also, about that hesitation.. She knows Rand is convinced he won't survive the LB. If she sees him alive after it, why doesn't she say so outright, and take away some of his worries?

[OptimusPrime]

'No longer be a symbol' isn't a description. That would have to be something like 'It would no longer be a symbol'.

 

Also, about that hesitation.. She knows Rand is convinced he won't survive the LB. If she sees him alive after it, why doesn't she say so outright, and take away some of his worries?

 

She might have seen that it wasnt him. Shes seen faces representing masks in her visions before.

[herid]

'No longer be a symbol' isn't a description. That would have to be something like 'It would no longer be a symbol'.

I disagree. I can't read it any other way but as a description. It does not make grammatical sense otherwise.

No longer be a symbol of darkness or hate. A sign of victory and hope."

If it was an instruction than another "be" in the second sentence would have to be there. Without it it does not make sense.

The first "be" is somewhat strange, true, but characters in WoT sometimes stick "be" where it's not really necessary. Basically, I read that phrase as

 

I see an inn there with the mark of the Dragon's Fang inlaid on the door. No longer a symbol of darkness or hate. A sign of victory and hope."

 

Also, about that hesitation.. She knows Rand is convinced he won't survive the LB. If she sees him alive after it, why doesn't she say so outright, and take away some of his worries?

she doesn't always know what the visions mean. she just relates what she is seeing at the moment.

[FarShainMael]

You think that first 'be' might be a typo? Could be..

 

But if not, it can make grammatical sense.. You can say to people 'be quiet' or 'be an engineer when you grow up', that sort of thing. Personally I think you're right and it's a typo.

[herid]

You think that first 'be' might be a typo? Could be..

 

But if not, it can make grammatical sense.. You can say to people 'be quiet' or 'be an engineer when you grow up', that sort of thing. Personally I think you're right and it's a typo.

yes, it could be a typo (most likely explanation IMO) or it could be an unnecessary "be" that characters in WoT sometimes use to accentuate things. Like Domon often does. What I'm sure it's not is an instruction because that does not make grammatical sense. If we take the "be" in

I see an inn there with the mark of the Dragon's Fang inlaid on the door. No longer be a symbol of darkness or hate. A sign of victory and hope."

 

to be an imperative then another "be" is absolutely required in the last sentence. It should then read "Be a sign of victory and hope." It does not make sense without it.

[FarShainMael]

Bayle Domon's use of 'be' in speech forms such as 'I do be going over there' is an archaic form of English, I believe (anyone out there know?) but I agree with your point here. The text was untidy.

[TreeJoe]

There are numerous alliterations throughout the series that this is some form of "last battle". Now, sure, that could simply be the same thing in every age - but Rand himself tells Ishmael that he intends to kill the Dark One and stop the cycle.

 

Now, without getting into any of the Fain-becomes-Dark-One theories, I posit the following:

 

1. If Rand kills Ishamael in some permanent manner, the Dark One dies. Rand may permanently die or be significantly changed in this scenario, as it is now possible the cycle is broken and the champions are no longer in existence. I.e. Rand becomes someone in T'A'R only and is no longer born every 3000 years or whatever.

 

2. If Ishamael continues to live, the Dark One continues as well. And, further, Rand's soul continues on as before.

 

Ishamael is the Dark One's champion - he is the counterpoint to Rand. If one or other cease to exist by their very threads/souls, then the cycle is therefore broken and momentous changes will take place as the wheel of time is no longer spinning out the same souls for endless turnings.

 

I expect that will be the outcome, since from the very beginning of the book this battle has been setup as different.

[herid]

There are numerous alliterations throughout the series that this is some form of "last battle". Now, sure, that could simply be the same thing in every age - but Rand himself tells Ishmael that he intends to kill the Dark One and stop the cycle.

 

Now, without getting into any of the Fain-becomes-Dark-One theories, I posit the following:

 

1. If Rand kills Ishamael in some permanent manner, the Dark One dies.

Why would you think this? Ishy is the DO's champion, not his avatar. He already died once and the DO suffered no ill effects, apparently. He died many times before too.

I do expect Moridin to be the last Forsaken standing but I see no reason to believe that his fate is tied directly that of the DO. If anybody is DO's avatar it's Shaidar Haran although he doesn't quite fit the bill either.

[Southpaw89]

yeah Moridin's death won't affect the DO but there were some interesting details here and there in ToM that could make you think that Moridin is being spoken to by the DO or by at least Shadar Hairan even when they aren't in the same area

[TreeJoe]

I didn't say Moridin dying, I said Moridin's soul being wiped out - i.e. balefire.

 

His soul as the DO's champion has been around for thousands of turns of the wheel AFAIK - if it's wiped out, the whole cycle is massively changed.

[Manscher]

Balefire doesn't prevent you from being reborn, it just prevents the DO from being able to snatch your thread and move it into a new body.

[herid]

Balefire doesn't prevent you from being reborn, it just prevents the DO from being able to snatch your thread and move it into a new body.

yep. Moreover BS addressed the issue of removing somebody's soul permanently from the Pattern in an interview

 

JordanCon 24 April 2010 - blindillusion reporting

 

blindillusion: Is there any way for someone to be removed completely from the Pattern?

Brandon: (Sorry I cannot put out his precise words, but here is the gist) – Jordan started by having balefire do this, but he later debunked this theory by saying someone killed by balefire can be reborn at some point. We currently know of nothing/no method that will completely remove someone from the Pattern.

- I thanked him and turned to walk away at this point, so that he could continue with the signing. But he called me back and commented that: The wolves in the Wolf Dream. We know that in the Wolf Dream something can be completely removed from the Pattern.

 

The fact that BS's first reaction was to say that this is not possible at all means that nothing like that is in the cards, else he would not have reacted that way. Killing somebody who is already dead ( like a Hero of the Horn) in TAR would do the trick but is no going to happen to Moridin because of Sanderson's original reaction (and of course Moridin is no Hero of the Horn).