Elayne

[SuperFade]

Just want to point out a few things. First Rahvin's actions disgraced Trakand plain and simple. You can not say someone under compulsion is responsible for their actions.

 

Second Elayne was not "galavanting" around Ebou Dar. She put potentially saving the world and fixing the weather when it was in dire need ahead of her own political aspirations which should be lauded.

 

Lastly while Rand did hold Andor as Regent he never took the throne like in other nations and therefore it was never his to give(hence no right to giver Elayne anything). Dyelin herself made it clear that Andor would have risen against him had he stayed too long and Bashere(one of the GC's) clearly said it would have been a disaster had Elayne used Rand's army to hold off the other claimants. I wouldn't call all the work she did in the succession war a "charade". Did the initial threat of Rand's power buy her time? Of course and it was time well spent finding the bowl.

 

 

1. It doesn't matter that it was Rahvin. Very few people believed Rand when he said that Gaebril was a Forsaken. To the people of Andor and the nobility in particular, Morgase ran Andor into the ground. I agree that it was all Rahvin's doing, but the people in the actual books still believe it was Morgase's fault.

 

2. Okay, 'galavanting' was the wrong word. Once again, though, the fact of the matter is that Elayne was not in Andor to claim her throne. I can't recall exactly how long she was gone, but I'm guessing a month at least. Therefore, we have an empty throne, the house that held said throne currently in disgrace and the heir apparent to that house missing for a considerable time. In such circumstances, I put it to you that if Rand had not held the throne open for her it would have been claimed by another house.

 

3. That's just semantics. Rand was the ruler in all but name; he held court, dictated policy and provided law and order in Caemlyn. His Aiel held the city, and whoever holds Caemlyn holds Andor as Elayne herself has said. Indeed, Elayne admits that there was little possibility of forcing him out should he have chosen to stay. I sincerely doubt Dyelin's claims that the population would have risen against Rand, particularly when they did nothing against Rahvin even when he declared himself king. And even if there had been a rebellion, the Aiel would have destroyed it with little trouble. As for the succession war, that would never have occured if Rand had not gone to the trouble of holding Andor for her.

 

All in all, my summarised argument is this. Rand ruled Andor in all but name, performing all the functions of a ruler. His Aiel could put down any potential uprising. Elayne could not have retaken Andor from Rahvin on her own. Finally, Trakand was in disgrace, and nearly everyone who mattered thought it was Morgase's doing. I do not dispute the fact that Elayne had to be seen to take Andor herself. I dispute the assertion that she actually did it, when it seems clear to me that Rand handed her her country on a platter.

[Suttree]

I dispute the assertion that she actually did it, when it seems clear to me that Rand handed her her country on a platter.

 

It's not semantics at all, Rand was the Regent of Andor. He very clearly didn't take the throne as he did in other nations.

 

Did Rand and his men win the succession war and give the votes to Elayne? She did all of that work on her own, and Bashere says how bad it would have been if she hadn't. No one is disputing the fact that he played a part in ousting Rahvin and restoring stability to Andor. But had he attempted to hand Elayne the throne and dictate the next ruler, Dyelin would not have sided with Elayne and the war would have been far worse.

 

Edit: As for Dyelin threatening Rand, your opinion there doesn't really matter. The text is clear that Andor would have risen against the Dragon had he forced his hand. Dyelin had the support to at last make the attempt. Wether she would have been successful is another matter.

[SuperFade]

Did Rand and his men win the succession war and give the votes to Elayne? She did all of that work on her own, and Bashere says how bad it would have been if she hadn't. No one is disputing the fact that he played a part in ousting Rahvin and restoring stability to Andor. But had he attempted to hand Elayne the throne and dictate the next ruler, Dyelin would not have sided with Elayne and the war would have been far worse.

 

Edit: As for Dyelin threatening Rand, your opinion there doesn't really matter. The text is clear that Andor would have risen against the Dragon had he forced his hand. Dyelin had the support to at last make the attempt. Wether she would have been successful is another matter.

 

As I have already said, the succession war would not have happened had Rand not held the throne for her. Elayne did win the war on her own, but it doesn't change the fact that without Rand to supress dissent whilst she was away the war would have happened either much sooner or not at all. If Rand had left the country right after besting Rahvin I doubt the throne would have remained empty for long; another house would have made a claim and possibly started the war much earlier, with Elayne totally out of the picture and unable to fight for her claim. But that veers into speculation, so I'll just finish by making the claim that the only reason a succession war happened at all was because of Rand's insistance that Elayne take the throne.

 

Also, Rand did dictate Elayne as the next ruler. That's what I've been arguing all this time. He held the throne for her, he declared that she was the successor, he kept order for her. He won Andor from Rahvin for her. At the end of the day, Rand held Andor in the palm of his hand and chose to give it to Elayne. He didn't have to, he had the power to hold it for himself. No matter what Elayne may believe, Rand was the ruler in all but name and gave her the throne, because regardless of titles and semantics might made right and he had the power to give it.

 

And the text is clear, really? I have doubts about that. All we have is Dyelin's word that Andor would rise. Nobody rose against Rahvin, despite him going a step further than Rand and actually declaring himself King. Even if Dyelin herself began a rebellion, Rand's Aiel would have easily destroyed her forces. Both Elayne and Dyelin claim that the people of Andor would rise to take down a usurper, but I can see little evidence of such sentiment.

 

 

It's not semantics at all, Rand was the Regent of Andor. He very clearly didn't take the throne as he did in other nations.

 

Doesn't matter that he didn't officially take the throne. He was the ruler, he had the armies, he controlled the infrastructure, he held court and dictated policy. You can call him a Regent if you want, but the fact is that he had the power to hold the throne and yet chose to give it away.

[Suttree]

Also, Rand did dictate Elayne as the next ruler.

 

If that is the case why the throne room scene I quoted earlier? If Elayne had said she was accepting the throne from Rand, Dyelin would have very clearly withdrawn her support and Elayne would have none of the houses supporting her.

 

To address the scenario you mentioned above, if Rand had left Caemlyn after defeating Rahvin, Dyelin would have still been regent for Elayne as she was in the books. No real change there. After all Dyelin was doing a good deal of enforcing in Elayne's name.

 

She moves quickly, Lady Dyelin. Within four days she had the two leaders hanged, for treason to the Daughter-Heir Elayne, and ordered another twenty flogged.” He chuckled approvingly. His wife sniffed. Likely she would have had the road lined with gibbets all the way from Aringill to Caemlyn

 

Lastly on this topic, Rand was very clear in his own words, on his place in Andor.

 

LoC ch 16

"I will not welcome you-this is your land, and the palace of your Queen"

 

And the text is clear, really? I have doubts about that. All we have is Dyelin's word that Andor would rise.

 

Yes the text is very clear. In addition to her own words she received the support of two other houses on the spot.

 

LoC Ch16

"But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I've heard they did in cairhein or tear.......then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same." "and I will ride beside you," Luan said firmly. "And I," Ellorian said, echoed by Abelle.

 

What have we seen in the books that would possibly cause you to doubt her? Dyelin had support from the majority of the houses and Andor can field more than 200,000 soldiers. You say it was unlikely they would have done so? Yet beyond Dyelin and the other nobles, we have this evidence that citizens were already thinking along those lines.

 

TPoD

He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self. If Dyelin lets her keep it, anyway.”

 

&

 

And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor.

[David Selig]

I knew this thread will turn this way, it was inevitable. :)

 

That's just semantics. Rand was the ruler in all but name; he held court, dictated policy and provided law and order in Caemlyn. His Aiel held the city, and whoever holds Caemlyn holds Andor as Elayne herself has said.

And in the same sentence she said that it was just a saying and Rand demonstrated it was not really true.

 

Apart from Caemlyn and the several miles around, Rand didn't control Andor. One telling examples - some of the Andoran nobles gathered huge armies during his period of control of Caemlyn, invaded Murandy and changed the border significantly. None of them asked Rand for permission to invade a neighbouring country or even notified him of their intentions.

 

All in all, my summarised argument is this. Rand ruled Andor in all but name, performing all the functions of a ruler.

Really? All I remember is meeting with some of the Andoran nobles and not ordering them anything. They were free to do whatever they want apart from taking over Caemlyn, including invading another realm without even notifying Rand. The only other government related thing he did was provide funds for Norry so he could hire more clerks or something like that and have the Aiel and the Bashere men take over as law enforcements in Caemlyn.

 

His Aiel could put down any potential uprising.

Sure. But Rand really didn't want to reach this point since after all his goal is the Last battle, not taking over thrones, Andor had the military numbers to turn this into a major bloodbath - the total number all the Houses can levy is around 200 000.

 

Elayne could not have retaken Andor from Rahvin on her own.

Depends on what you mean on her own. In one in one fight, of course not. But with the support the White Tower (or even just Nynaeve and Egwene - linked they'd have been more than a match for Rahvin in raw strength in the Power) to deal with Rahvin's channelling - it was far from impossible. There were a lot of Queen's Guards who would've joined her cause, as Mat noted in TFOH.

 

“There are a lot of queen’s men down there. They are not so sure about fighting for a king. You find Elayne. Half of them will flock to you to put her on the -"

Later we see that most of the Guardsmen from before Gaebril's time, the core of the Andor's army and the best prepared troops, joined Elayne's cause and arrived in Caemlyn led by Guybon. Elayne being a woman by itself gave her a huge advantage in terms of support from nobles and the general population.

 

Anyway, to clarify my position - I also believe Elayne should've thanked Rand for saving Andor from Rahvin and keeping Caemlyn for her which helped a lot her cause for the Lion Throne later on. I disagree though that Rand ever took over Andor (he could have, since he had the numbers, but he did not) or that he handed Elayne the Lion Throne.

[Mr Ares]

The argument about Rand 'giving' Elayne Andor has been repeated many times, and each time I have been of the opinion that Rand did in fact give it to her, no matter what Elayne may believe. Morgase's actions disgraced Trakand, plain and simple. She turned all the strong Noble Houses against her and made her own House into a pariah and a haven for toadies and bootlickers. If it were not for Rand specifically holding the throne for Elayne, who was at that point off galavanting around Ebou Dar, another House would have stepped up and taken the throne within days. Trakand's position was untenable due to Rahvin's manipulations, with only Dyelin truly supporting Elayne's claim. Could Dyelin alone have held the throne for Elayne, an absent heir whose House has no other supporters among the nobility? I highly doubt it. Ellorien, Pelivar and the others would not have stood for it and either elected Dyelin by force or put forward their own candidate. The fear of the Dragon Reborn's retribution made Elayne's claim possible.

 

Without Rand, Rahvin would be King of Andor. We see from the narrative that he had no trouble replacing loyal soldiers with darkfriends and hiding darkspawn within Caemlyn itself. How long did Elayne spend chasing the Bowl of Winds? In that time Rahvin would have a solid hold on Andor and would require an enormous amount of resources to displace, resources Elayne would struggle to obtain. Even if she did by some miracle manage to get hold of enough soldiers and weapons to take back her country, the losses and damage to Andor would be immense.

 

Overall, I understand why Elayne would want to be seen as taking Andor for herself. Even so, it's just not what happened. It would be far more forgivable if she acknowledged to herself that yes, Rand had given her Andor, but that she had had to put on a charade in order to make things acceptable for the Andoran people. Instead she fumes about how Rand has no right to give her anything.

Firstly, your timeline is off - when Elayne went to Ebou Dar, Rand had already taken Caemlyn. There is a big difference between your mother the Queen going missing and her lover declaring himself King, and that King dying and being replaced by your boyfriend who is explicitly not claiming the throne. On the one hand, she has to deal with a usurper, on the other she can deal with the Bowl knowing the the situation in Andor is, for the time being, stable. Rand not dealing with Rahvin might well have led to changed priorities on her part. Also, Elayne can call on the support of various Houses, and the WT if she openly proclaims Gaebril to be a Chosen (not if he's just a usurping king), or Nynaeve at the very least. Further, Rand didn't hold Andor - he held Caemlyn, maybe a couple of other places, but that was a long way from controlling the country, even to the extent of previous monarchs who were unable to exert authority over much of the West. Also, Rand lost much of that control even before Elayne returned - he was driven out by the AS embassy, leaving his troops in a position to act as police, maintaing order on the streets of Caemlyn, but him not in a position to dictate policy.

 

 

2. Okay, 'galavanting' was the wrong word. Once again, though, the fact of the matter is that Elayne was not in Andor to claim her throne. I can't recall exactly how long she was gone, but I'm guessing a month at least. Therefore, we have an empty throne, the house that held said throne currently in disgrace and the heir apparent to that house missing for a considerable time. In such circumstances, I put it to you that if Rand had not held the throne open for her it would have been claimed by another house.

I put it to you that if there was a power vacuum at the time, she might not have gone to Ebou Dar in the first place. With the situation stable under Rand's regency she was free to put saving the world as her number one priority.

 

3. That's just semantics. Rand was the ruler in all but name; he held court, dictated policy and provided law and order in Caemlyn. His Aiel held the city, and whoever holds Caemlyn holds Andor as Elayne herself has said.

Is that why Elayne ruled Andor when she was under seige in Caemlyn? That's a saying, one that Elayne doesn't believe, and the falsity of which is demonstrated by the books.

Indeed, Elayne admits that there was little possibility of forcing him out should he have chosen to stay. I sincerely doubt Dyelin's claims that the population would have risen against Rand, particularly when they did nothing against Rahvin even when he declared himself king.

They'd just had Morgase go bad, now they had a new ruler - Rahvin wasn't in charge all that long, so it's not surprising that there is no full scale rebellion just yet.

And even if there had been a rebellion, the Aiel would have destroyed it with little trouble.

Self-defeating - Rand needs Andor and the Aiel for TG. Having the one destroy the other, with the other undoubtedly taking losses in the process, he weakens his own position. He can't afford to do that, thus while he does have themilitary strength he is constrained in his ability to use it.

 

Anyway, to clarify my position - I also believe Elayne should've thanked Rand for saving Andor from Rahvin and keeping Caemlyn for her which helped a lot her cause for the Lion Throne later on. I disagree though that Rand ever took over Andor (he could have, since he had the numbers, but he did not) or that he handed Elayne the Lion Throne.

Of course, his "giving her the throne" line, while well meant, was clumsily phrased in a way that did cause problems for her. A measure of annoyance is understandable. Otherwise, I agree - she should have thanked him, and he didn't give her Andor.

[Ingtar Shinowa]

I see people keep referring to beheading Perrin, which I admit I was annoyed by at the first read through. But after I've gone through it a couple of times, it's quite obvious she never had any intentions of doing it, she even thought that she wouldn't do it, it was merely used to try and unsettle them in their discussion on how to sort out the whole deal. She obviously couldn't just hand over a huge chunk of Andor to a "commoner" without any real reason, so they had to come up with some excuse for it.

 

Aside from just being incredibly rude, the annoying/funny thing about it is, she couldn't behead Perrin. There isn't an army in Andor that could stand against him. With her tenuous hold on the throne, she would only be able to call upon the forces of those few houses absolutely loyal to her, which wouldn't be nearly enough. Dragons included.