Freedom or Security

[Mr Ares]

Of course that's clearly nonsense, since nothing is stopping the sul'dam from being as destructive and power-hungry as an unleashed channeller. It's a massive hypocrisy on the part of the Seanchan. Besides, they use the damane to gain power and control others, just as those Seanchan Aes Sedai of old they demonise. They are hypocrites to the core, Tuon is the biggest one since she feels so proud for choosing not to channel on her own, yet has no problem at all channelling through proxy (damane) which amounts to the same thing.

 

Freedom vs security is a false dichotomy in most cases. It's possible to strike a balance and have a lot of both.

That's not true at all. The real threat of the damane isn't so much the fact that they can use channeling to kill, as the fact that they can channel without being detected by ordinary folks, and that it is an ability that cannot be taken away from them (again, by ordinary folks).

 

To take a real world analogy: society isn't too bothered by people who carry guns, such as soldiers and policemen. However, if a race of people appeared who can shoot invisible laser beams out of their eyes, then there *would* be panic in society. After all, while both can kill, you know what the guy shooting the gun is doing, and you can always disarm him. There is no way for you to know who is shooting invisible lasers. Such people would be 1000x more dangerous than a guy with a gun, even though they both kill people about as effectively.

 

Same thing for the damane. Sul'dam cannot do anything by themselves. When they link up with a damane, it's as if they're holding a machine gun. Sul'dam are also not unique. If one sul'dam rebels, there are always others to take her place. Just like in a army barracks, if you control which sul'dams are allowed to link with a damane, it's the equivalent of ensuring that terrorists can't break into the armory and steal guns to shoot everyone. There are just so many ways that you can put controls on sul'dam that you can't do to damane.

It's not about whether or not someone who could shoot frickin' laser beams out of his eyes could kill someone, it's about whether or not he will. I could kill a man with my bear hands, if I wanted to. I'm pretty sure most people here have the physical strength to be capable of that. So should we begin a mass program of hand amputation? After all, it must be the hand that is the problem. Likewise, the Seanchan have misidentified the problem. A marath'damane can set herself up as a queen. So can a normal person. A marath'damane might also decide that she's quite happy in her normal life, farming or what have you. So why the need to lock her up, destroy her identity, and then use her power for your own benefit? There really isn't one. If a man is a killer, lock him up. Don't lock him up on the grounds that he might one day decide to be. If someone can shoot you with their eye lasers, don't gouge out their eyes just because they might. And if someone can channel, don't enslave them and use them as weapons just because there exists the possibility of them using themselves as weapons against you.

 

 

To be honest, I can never rationalize monarchies at all. What makes nobles above the rest of the masses? What gives them the right to rule over people?

 

Why heap hate on the Seanchan for enslaving damane when Kings and Queens of Randland demand the same of their people? Monarchies are nothing but dictatorship given a better title. Is it not written that nobles treat peasants little less than human that when Rand made proclamations to the effect that nobles cannot rape a peasant without consequence the Tairen Lords thought it was a joke at first?

 

So are we as readers supposed to be revolted when a channeler is enslaved but when unelected nobles lord it over the land it is ok? Either we accept the book as it is or we reject slaves and nobles as it is written in totality, do not nitpick that one enslavement is better than the other.

 

The book makes it clear, Even Rand said so himself, also the Tinkers. The Seanchan rule is better for the normal folks. If we take the masses opinion on the matter it is clear that the Seanchan is the best rulers in the land. That one aspect of their culture abhors the readers does not mean anything. When Mat is being called Prince of the Ravens in Andor, it is not with fear but with awe, even the people of andor treats that title with respect.

Not all monarchies are the same. The Seanchan practice slavery, the Westlands don't. They practice torture, the Westlands do. They have a police state, Westlands not so much. Precisely how liberal the laws in a given state are vary from state to state, as you'd expect. The Tairen nobles abused their power to a greater extent than many other countries. They might all be dictatorships, but some dictatorships are worse than others. Do kings and queens have the power of life and death over their subjects? Yes. Of course, some democratic countries have the death penalty, so it is entirely possible for elected officials to have that same power (or possibly unelected judges in a democratic country). Having the power of life and death might be important, but so is how it's used. Just killing lawbreakers is one thing, killing people who annoy you is another, for example.

 

 

And suttree you never did answer my question did you? would you deny that kings and queens have the power of life and death over their subject?and YES I SEE all people who are under the rule of Monarchs the same.

A slave is a slave, ruled people are ruled. Where in the book did you read the Laws of Andor? Why do you keep your arguments to just Andor vs Seanchan? why not include the rest of the monarchies.

Why bother? After all, if ruled people are ruled, if everyone under the power of a monarch is the same, then any two monarchies (such as Andor and Seanchan) will suffice. If you include more than two and there are differences between two or more, then your point is surely disproven? Ruled by a constituional monarchy, ruled by an absolute monarchy, ruled by a feudal monarchy, ruled by an elected President, doesn't matter. Ruled people are ruled.

[David Selig]

The difference is that in Andor, everyone is given a trial and even the Queens obey the law - that's stated numerous times. Here for example, by Elayne:

 

KoD, Ch. 17

 

The law is quite clear on when someone may be put to the question, and suspicions are not reason enough. Solid evidence is needed. My mother often said, ‘The Queen must obey the law she makes, or there is no law.’ I will not begin by breaking the law.

 

This also shows how rarely they put people to the question in Andor.

 

On the other hand, the Seanchan Empress is the law. Remember when Tuon came back and pronounced that Suroth was to be made property - no trial of any kind. And of course, the Seekers are free to torture and execute anyone even for the slightest suspicion and do it regularly. In Andor you can go to the streets and protest against the Queen openly. In Seanchan if you even talk against the Empress you are a dead man.

 

Elayne herself think it right that lesser beings die for her because she is Queen or did you forget her arguments with Birgitte about it?

No. It was war, soldiers in Elayne's army died, but it was never implied that they are "lesser beings'.

 

Speaking of this though, how about Tuon's completely nonchalant behaviour when Mat's army was slaughtering Seanchan soldiers by the thousands?

 

Granted, Andor is an unusual case in Randland, and you can make a case hat in Tear before Rand came, the commoners were mistreated worse than in Seanchan.

[USURP888]

Why bother? After all, if ruled people are ruled, if everyone under the power of a monarch is the same, then any two monarchies (such as Andor and Seanchan) will suffice. If you include more than two and there are differences between two or more, then your point is surely disproven? Ruled by a constituional monarchy, ruled by an absolute monarchy, ruled by a feudal monarchy, ruled by an elected President, doesn't matter. Ruled people are ruled.

 

I agree, hence my assertion that there is no difference at all, ruled people are ruled. That Andor now has a good queen in Elayne and had so in Morgase does not dispute the fact that they are still monarchs who has the power of life and death over their people the same as the Seanchan. I myself would rather be truly FREE, but I do not put my opinion into the story itself and claim that one ruler is better than the other. For this story that we all love, The Wheel of Time is a fantasy where monarchs rule absolutely. There are differences in culture and ways on how they rule but they all rule just the same.

 

With regards to laws, Andor has laws and the Seanchan has laws. The Seanchan laws gave Tuon the power to do what she did to Suroth. Andoron law and Seanchan law by the way are not made by any legislature elected by the people, they are proclamations made by the ruler. I am simple saying that we should not hate on the Seanchan because they are just the same as all the other monarchs in Randland. Better than most if we are to believe the tinkers, Rand and even the population themselves.

[USURP888]

Not all monarchies are the same. The Seanchan practice slavery, the Westlands don't. They practice torture, the Westlands do. They have a police state, Westlands not so much. Precisely how liberal the laws in a given state are vary from state to state, as you'd expect. The Tairen nobles abused their power to a greater extent than many other countries. They might all be dictatorships, but some dictatorships are worse than others. Do kings and queens have the power of life and death over their subjects? Yes. Of course, some democratic countries have the death penalty, so it is entirely possible for elected officials to have that same power (or possibly unelected judges in a democratic country). Having the power of life and death might be important, but so is how it's used. Just killing lawbreakers is one thing, killing people who annoy you is another, for example.

 

 

Back when Mat first met Olver, a lordling was about to cut up the kid just for touching his horse and his own retainer thought it the lord's right. I submit that prior to Rand's coming this is the norm of the land.

 

The Seanchan Empress do have absolute power, but yet I submit that despite this we never see any of her subjects being mistreated, in fact the book has made it a point to emphasize time and time again that except for damane, the Seanchan rule justly and fairly. This will never be the case if the ruler kills people just for annoyance. Tuon is never seen by the normal people, never interacts with them for them to even be in danger of annoying her.

 

The Seanchan invaders would never have been received by the people they invaded if they abused them. Karede and Egeanin showed they treat people like Setalle with respect. The bannerwoman that mat interacted with punished seanchan soldiers because she did not want them to think the seanchan natives are treated better than the randland armies.

 

Tuon treated Noal, Olver and Setalle with respect at all times. The only people that annoyed her were the Aes Sedai and she considers them marath'damane at that. Renna was killed by Mat and Tuon called it justice and I will tend to agree. I have never seen Tuon kill a person for annoying her.

 

Still they are monarchies, the same as the monarchies in Randland. I don't have to accept monarchies in real life to be able to accept that this is the reality of the fantasy story I am enjoying. I don't accept slavery in real life but that does not prevent me from enjoying the story as it is written as well.

[Apple13]

I think the Seanchan probably have the best means of keeping the peace in their Empire, but the way they treat their damane and da'covale is disgusting. It's not just that they keep slaves, though that's terrible too. But they make the slaves forget all sense of self, through repeated beatings and torture. Even in a story set in more primitive times, that seems very extreme for me. It's especially strange when you see that most of the Seanchan characters we've seen so far are interesting and likeable usually, like Tuon. But then you see Tuon around damane, and she thinks its a sport (a sport!) to break damane. And it's not like the Seanchan method of leashing channelers makes any sense. If they're so afraid of the One Power, why not stop using it entirely, like Tear, but no. They want to USE the damane for their abilities in conquering other countries and stuff. No word on whether the damane themselves want to spend the rest of their lives being killing machines.

 

The other empires may be ruled by dictators, but at least there are other Houses in most of them to take over if the rulers fail to do their job well. In the Seanchan Empire, the best way to get in the throne is after an assassination, which doesn't make sense at all. And while Tear is pretty bad in itself, at least other monarchies like Andor and Illian make it possible for the common people to LOOK at their rulers without being punished. How does the Empress think she's going to be a good ruler if she doesn't want to have the slightest bit of interaction with the majority of the population?

[solarz]

Take Andor with an elected Queen for example

 

Oh the Andoran Queen is elected now? Funny how they had a Succession WAR, not a Succession Election Campaign.

 

 

Really? They don't? Just a couple examples...

 

1. That awesome sport for Seanchan royalty. Let's play put the A'dam bracelet on a man and see if he dies screaming!

 

2. Say you are the Imperial Functionary when Perrin shows up with the note from Suroth looking for fork root. Just a regular decision in the course of you work day and yet "That woman knew she stood in the shadow of death as soon as she read Suroth’s words".

 

I could go on and on so give me a break...the damane system will change as Randland moves into the future, I would be willing to bet on it.

 

So you gave two examples of nobility abusing commoners. So what? That happens in every feudal society, including Andor. Andor just happens to have less cases of it than, say, Cairhien or Tear. That's because both Morgase and Elayne are very benevolent rulers. We haven't seen what Andor was like when it was ruled by other rulers, apart from Gaebril.

 

 

The other empires may be ruled by dictators, but at least there are other Houses in most of them to take over if the rulers fail to do their job well. In the Seanchan Empire, the best way to get in the throne is after an assassination, which doesn't make sense at all. And while Tear is pretty bad in itself, at least other monarchies like Andor and Illian make it possible for the common people to LOOK at their rulers without being punished. How does the Empress think she's going to be a good ruler if she doesn't want to have the slightest bit of interaction with the majority of the population?

 

Seanchan is modeled partly on imperial China, and the Westland nations on medieval Europe. If you were familiar with the history of each, you will realize that imperial China operated on a vastly different political model than medieval Europe.

 

Some of the parallels that are relevant to the Seanchan comparison is the sheer size of the Seanchan Empire, and, logically, their huge population. It is far more difficult to have a central authority in a land the size of France than in a land the size of China (which is the size of the entire European continent). The absolute obedience of the Emperor and his elevation to godlike status is the result of trying to establish absolute dominance over many, many Lords who maintain their own standing army. When everyone reveres the Emperor as a god, it is much more unlikely that some powerful Lord will get the idea to start an armed secession.

 

That said, apart from Morgase and Elayne, few other rulers of Westlands even care about commoners, nevermind interact with them.

[David Selig]

Any culture in which 99,5% of the population aren't allowed to even look at the monarch has serious problems in my book.

 

The Seanchan Empress do have absolute power, but yet I submit that despite this we never see any of her subjects being mistreated,

What? So breaking in damane by torture and brainwashing is not mistreatment?

How about the thousands of Tuon's own soldiers who she calmly watched being slaughtered by the Band and never did anything to try and stop it?

 

This whole "All monarchies are equal" is pointless and misses the point. Monarchies come in many shapes and forms. The Queen of Andor has far less leeway to abuse her power than the Seanchan Empress because the societies are very different. Nobody in Andor think of Morgase or Elayne as a semi-Goddess or finish every other sentence with "May the Queen lives forever".

[solarz]

Any culture in which 99,5% of the population aren't allowed to even look at the monarch has serious problems in my book.

What? So breaking in damane by torture and brainwashing is not mistreatment?

How about the thousands of Tuon's own soldiers who she calmly watched being slaughtered by the Band and never did anything to try and stop it?

 

This whole "All monarchies are equal" is pointless and misses the point. Monarchies come in many shapes and forms. The Queen of Andor has far less leeway to abuse her power than the Seanchan Empress because the societies are very different. Nobody in Andor think of Morgase or Elayne as a semi-Goddess or finish every other sentence with "May the Queen lives forever".

 

Yet while the Westlands are in chaos, famine and banditry rule the lands, and even in Andor, only Caemlyn is somewhat of a haven, the lands controlled by Seanchan are stable and prosperous. Even the Dark One's affliction does not seem to affect them.

 

If you were a non-channeling farmer in Randland, faced with Dragonsworn bandits in Ghealdan or famine in Arad Doman, wouldn't you jump at the chance to go to Ebou Dar?

[DemandredFO]

It's pointless to compare the Seanchan to reality. Just as torture always produces accurate info in movies or books, I'm sure the USSR in a book would be a wonderful place to live.

The except for demane sentence is a joke. That like saying except for black people, women and immigrants the unamended u.s. constitution was quite fair.

[USURP888]

Any culture in which 99,5% of the population aren't allowed to even look at the monarch has serious problems in my book.

 

The Seanchan Empress do have absolute power, but yet I submit that despite this we never see any of her subjects being mistreated,

What? So breaking in damane by torture and brainwashing is not mistreatment?

How about the thousands of Tuon's own soldiers who she calmly watched being slaughtered by the Band and never did anything to try and stop it?

 

This whole "All monarchies are equal" is pointless and misses the point. Monarchies come in many shapes and forms. The Queen of Andor has far less leeway to abuse her power than the Seanchan Empress because the societies are very different. Nobody in Andor think of Morgase or Elayne as a semi-Goddess or finish every other sentence with "May the Queen lives forever".

 

 

Their culture is alien to yours so you have a problem with it. Damane as I have repeatedly said over and over again is one aspect of their culture I don't agree with and would be pleased to see vanish. I argue that despite this negative aspect of their culture, the people in the story as it is written by RJ and BS actually prefer the Seanchan over the Randland monarchies. The Tinkers prefer their justice, the invaded actually thank them for it. Tylin and even Beslan of all people saw the rule of the Seanchan as good for their people. Rand during his darkest moment recognized this and stayed his hand because of it.

 

Tuon watched her soldiers being killed and restrained herself because she gave her word to Mat. it has been repeatedly emphasized in the book that Tuon values promises and her word above all, when she saw the maps of the Band, she seethed inside and wanted them burned so I would submit that she was actually angry at what is happening but her word of honor and the omens as she interpreted them prevented her from acting in any form that would break her word. Tuon has integrity and has a Word of Honor is how I see it.

 

Elayne and Morgase are good rulers, I have said that as well. What if Andor then has a bad queen after Elayne? what would stop that next monarch from acting with absolute authority? A monarch is a monarch, some rule for good, some rule for evil. Their methods may differ but they rule absolutely just the same.

[Suttree]

Read my first paragraph and tell me that I did not answer your question. A slave is a slave, ruled people are ruled. Where in the book did you read the Laws of Andor? Why do you keep your arguments to just Andor vs Seanchan?

 

Damane , damane , damane, that's all you blatter on about while you turn a blind eye from the fact that Monarchies all over have the power of life and death over their people.

 

 

Because all it takes is one other to show that monarchies are different. That has been done by numerous posters on this board, your point has been absolutely destroyed.

 

Damane, damane, damane, myself and the other posters keep blathering about it because for whatever reason you never address the issue head on. You write a throwaway sentence with ignorant propaganda while missing the actual point entirely. As Mr. Ares said...

 

Likewise, the Seanchan have misidentified the problem. A marath'damane can set herself up as a queen. So can a normal person. A marath'damane might also decide that she's quite happy in her normal life, farming or what have you. So why the need to lock her up, destroy her identity, and then use her power for your own benefit? There really isn't one. If a man is a killer, lock him up. Don't lock him up on the grounds that he might one day decide to be. If someone can shoot you with their eye lasers, don't gouge out their eyes just because they might. And if someone can channel, don't enslave them and use them as weapons just because there exists the possibility of them using themselves as weapons against you.

 

Now if you think we are "nitpicking" between types of slavery I guess you truly just don't understand. I don't see how it is possible but it is pretty tragic.

[David Selig]

Yet while the Westlands are in chaos, famine and banditry rule the lands, and even in Andor, only Caemlyn is somewhat of a haven, the lands controlled by Seanchan are stable and prosperous. Even the Dark One's affliction does not seem to affect them.

 

If you were a non-channeling farmer in Randland, faced with Dragonsworn bandits in Ghealdan or famine in Arad Doman, wouldn't you jump at the chance to go to Ebou Dar?

The Seanchan continent is in the throes of a huge civil war. The main reason the Seanchan controlled lands on this side of the ocean are in better shape than most others is that the Forsaken didn't want to destabilize them until now.

 

As for your question - if Ebou Dar was my only option, yes. Otherwise if I had all the info, I'd probably choose Andor (if the Succession War was over) or Illian.

[USURP888]

It's pointless to compare the Seanchan to reality. Just as torture always produces accurate info in movies or books, I'm sure the USSR in a book would be a wonderful place to live.

The except for demane sentence is a joke. That like saying except for black people, women and immigrants the unamended u.s. constitution was quite fair.

 

 

Therein lies the crux then, you hate on the seanchan because of white guilt over slavery? can't you not separate real world from fantasy? Damane is not the worst thing in the books, Jain Farstrider himself observed to Mat at one point.

 

What is it about living under Randland monarchies that you prefer, that they don't practice damane control? yes, i agree I would certainly prefer living in Randland if I were a female channeler, I get power and influence there but if I am a simple man, a farmer or a merchant I would certainly prefer living under the Seanchan. So no, the "except for damane" sentence is not a joke, certainly not for the vast majority of the people in the story who chose to prefer the Seanchan rule over the Randland rulers.

[USURP888]

Yet while the Westlands are in chaos, famine and banditry rule the lands, and even in Andor, only Caemlyn is somewhat of a haven, the lands controlled by Seanchan are stable and prosperous. Even the Dark One's affliction does not seem to affect them.

 

If you were a non-channeling farmer in Randland, faced with Dragonsworn bandits in Ghealdan or famine in Arad Doman, wouldn't you jump at the chance to go to Ebou Dar?

The Seanchan continent is in the throes of a huge civil war. The main reason the Seanchan controlled lands on this side of the ocean are in better shape than most others is that the Forsaken didn't want to destabilize them until now.

 

As for your question - if Ebou Dar was my only option, yes. Otherwise if I had all the info, I'd probably choose Andor (if the Succession War was over) or Illian.

 

You say you prefer Andor or Illian, but that is coming from the POV of someone reading the stories. But we have seen in the story itself that the people of Randland actually prefer the Seanchan rule.

[USURP888]

Now if you think we are "nitpicking" between types of slavery I guess you truly just don't understand. I don't see how it is possible but it is pretty tragic.

 

I don't understand because I am Asian, I have no white guilt or a black man's chip on my shoulder regarding slavery. You don't see it is possible for others to have a different point of view from yours? That's pretty tragic.

[David Selig]

 

Their culture is alien to yours so you have a problem with it. Damane as I have repeatedly said over and over again is one aspect of their culture I don't agree with and would be pleased to see vanish. I argue that despite this negative aspect of their culture, the people in the story as it is written by RJ and BS actually prefer the Seanchan over the Randland monarchies. The Tinkers prefer their justice, the invaded actually thank them for it. Tylin and even Beslan of all people saw the rule of the Seanchan as good for their people. Rand during his darkest moment recognized this and stayed his hand because of it.

 

Tuon watched her soldiers being killed and restrained herself because she gave her word to Mat. it has been repeatedly emphasized in the book that Tuon values promises and her word above all, when she saw the maps of the Band, she seethed inside and wanted them burned so I would submit that she was actually angry at what is happening but her word of honor and the omens as she interpreted them prevented her from acting in any form that would break her word. Tuon has integrity and has a Word of Honor is how I see it.

 

Elayne and Morgase are good rulers, I have said that as well. What if Andor then has a bad queen after Elayne? what would stop that next monarch from acting with absolute authority? A monarch is a monarch, some rule for good, some rule for evil. Their methods may differ but they rule absolutely just the same.

Tthe non-Seanchan monarchies in the books vary greatly from each other. And just because some character in the story prefer for example the Seanchan monarchy to the Altaran lords and queens, does not prove that everyone prefer the Seanchan monarchy to any other in the series. In fact, we have plenty examples otherwise - Ituralde got many thousands of Tarabon volunteers to join his army tofight the Seanchan.

 

You say you prefer Andor or Illian, but that is coming from the POV of someone reading the stories. But we have seen in the story itself that the people of Randland actually prefer the Seanchan rule.

Not all of them, as I already showed above. Besides, everyone has different priorities. Some people would value security more, or tolerate the problematic Seanchan practices more easily. And of course, we have the example of Setalle and her whole family, who get out of Ebou Dar and intended to go to Illian. I doubt they are the only ones.

[Suttree]

Now if you think we are "nitpicking" between types of slavery I guess you truly just don't understand. I don't see how it is possible but it is pretty tragic.

 

I don't understand because I am Asian, I have no white guilt or a black man's chip on my shoulder regarding slavery. You don't see it is possible for others to have a different point of view from yours? That's pretty tragic.

 

Please Usurp take a step back from the edge. If you can't address the point made above in Mr. Ares post I quoted and instead start making these bizarre claims, we might have to think you are just trolling.

 

and if you truly think slavery is a white/black issue you have absolutely zero understanding of our worlds history. For instance China...

 

Free Chinese could not be legally sold as a slave unless they willingly sold themselves. If they did not sell themselves, the person who sold them would be executed. However, all other peoples were subject to enslavement without their permission. Southern aboriginals consituted the largest number of slaves. Other peoples sold as slaves to Chinese included Turks, Persians, and Korean women, who were sought after by the wealthy. China suffered from shortages of women for marriage, which led to Korean women being sold in Chinese slave markets to compensate for this. The Chinese demand for young Korean slave girls as concubines created a lucrative market for pirates on the seas surrounding Korea, where they were sold in Shandong, China. The girls were from Koguryo or Silla, Korean girls were seen as beautiful by Chinese.

[DemandredFO]

As far as I understand from the books, the simple man or farmer could be disappeared because their nails are a bit to long or they're lying on a pebble when they prostrate for passing nobles and aren't as low as they can go.

Also what about the merchants that have lost horses. I'm pretty they'd have been missing a head if they hadn't accepted whatever the seanchan gave.

[Suttree]

Elayne and Morgase are good rulers, I have said that as well. What if Andor then has a bad queen after Elayne? what would stop that next monarch from acting with absolute authority? A monarch is a monarch, some rule for good, some rule for evil. Their methods may differ but they rule absolutely just the same.

 

This question has been answered many times. Andoran citizens have free speech, they can speak out and demonstrate against political wrongdoing and we have seen them do so, the other houses provide a system of checks and their queen isn't above the law! Why do you not get that there are different types of monarchies!

 

Oh the Andoran Queen is elected now? Funny how they had a Succession WAR, not a Succession Election Campaign.

 

There have only been FOUR succession wars in the entire history of Andor. How did Elayne actually gain the throne, and how is it usually done? By the other houses voting who to support.

[USURP888]

As far as I understand from the books, the simple man or farmer could be disappeared because their nails are a bit to long or they're lying on a pebble when they prostrate for passing nobles and aren't as low as they can go.

Also what about the merchants that have lost horses. I'm pretty they'd have been missing a head if they hadn't accepted whatever the seanchan gave.

 

all true, but then again we never see any of that in the books, what we do see is the people accepting the seanchan rule.

[USURP888]

Free Chinese could not be legally sold as a slave unless they willingly sold themselves. If they did not sell themselves, the person who sold them would be executed. However, all other peoples were subject to enslavement without their permission. Southern aboriginals consituted the largest number of slaves. Other peoples sold as slaves to Chinese included Turks, Persians, and Korean women, who were sought after by the wealthy. China suffered from shortages of women for marriage, which led to Korean women being sold in Chinese slave markets to compensate for this. The Chinese demand for young Korean slave girls as concubines created a lucrative market for pirates on the seas surrounding Korea, where they were sold in Shandong, China. The girls were from Koguryo or Silla, Korean girls were seen as beautiful by Chinese.

 

 

I am quite aware of slave history in Asia. And yet wonders of wonders I can disassociate myself enough that I don't take fantasy stories as reality and can take them as the author wish them presented and actually enjoy them. It seems we can never agree on this matter so why not just say we disagree and be done eh?

[Suttree]

Free Chinese could not be legally sold as a slave unless they willingly sold themselves. If they did not sell themselves, the person who sold them would be executed. However, all other peoples were subject to enslavement without their permission. Southern aboriginals consituted the largest number of slaves. Other peoples sold as slaves to Chinese included Turks, Persians, and Korean women, who were sought after by the wealthy. China suffered from shortages of women for marriage, which led to Korean women being sold in Chinese slave markets to compensate for this. The Chinese demand for young Korean slave girls as concubines created a lucrative market for pirates on the seas surrounding Korea, where they were sold in Shandong, China. The girls were from Koguryo or Silla, Korean girls were seen as beautiful by Chinese.

 

 

I am quite aware of slave history in Asia. And yet wonders of wonders I can disassociate myself enough that I don't take fantasy stories as reality and can take them as the author wish them presented and actually enjoy them. It seems we can never agree on this matter so why not just say we disagree and be done eh?

 

I am asking in a civil manner, please address the og issue of your post and Mr Ares quote that I provided above. If you can't have a reasoned debate about that the issue is truly done.

 

Edit: I will make it easy for you. Here is the quote again...

 

Likewise, the Seanchan have misidentified the problem. A marath'damane can set herself up as a queen. So can a normal person. A marath'damane might also decide that she's quite happy in her normal life, farming or what have you. So why the need to lock her up, destroy her identity, and then use her power for your own benefit? There really isn't one. If a man is a killer, lock him up. Don't lock him up on the grounds that he might one day decide to be. If someone can shoot you with their eye lasers, don't gouge out their eyes just because they might. And if someone can channel, don't enslave them and use them as weapons just because there exists the possibility of them using themselves as weapons against you.

[USURP888]

Not all of them, as I already showed above. Besides, everyone has different priorities. Some people would value security more, or tolerate the problematic Seanchan practices more easily. And of course, we have the example of Setalle and her whole family, who get out of Ebou Dar and intended to go to Illian. I doubt they are the only ones.

 

That is true David, that's what I wanted to get at if you read my original post in this topic. Some prefer more freedom, some prefer more security. Not everyone would want to live with the Seanchan, Setalle does not like their practice of chaining damane because she was once Aes Sedai herself and can emphatize and I doubt they are the only ones too.

 

But just to add, as much as Setalle hated the Seanchan practice of damane, she respected Tuon and thought she could influence her through dialogue enough to start some change.

[solarz]

This question has been answered many times. Andoran citizens have free speech, they can speak out and demonstrate against political wrongdoing and we have seen them do so, the other houses provide a system of checks and their queen isn't above the law! Why do you not get that there are different types of monarchies!

 

I call total BS on that. Where in the text do you see that ANDOR has a different kind of monarchy to other nations? Did the other houses provide a system of checks against Gaebril, or did they actually facilitate Gaebril's work once he had Morgase remove her own supporters?

 

Furthermore, where is your "free speech" when Elayne threatened to cut off Perrin's head for raising the Red Eagle Banner? The threat itself might not be 100% serious, but the feeling of entitlement of the Two Rivers, and the willingness to prevent secession through use of force is clearly present in Elayne.

 

Again, I will repeat: Andor has had benevolent rulers in Morgase and Elayne. There is no guarantee that things will be as benevolent under another ruler. That's what happens when you depend on individuals to uphold justice, and not the system.

 

By your logic, Qing Dynasty of China was a paragon of society under Emperor Kangxi, and a dark stain upon civilization under the Dowager Cixi. Those of us who understand history, however, understand that this is one of the characteristics of Monarchy.

 

It's not different types of monarchy, it's different kinds of monarchs!

 

There have only been FOUR succession wars in the entire history of Andor. How did Elayne actually gain the throne, and how is it usually done? By the other houses voting who to support.

 

LOL, you said the Andoran Queen was *elected*. How can she be elected when she either gets her throne passed on to her by her mother, or she has to wage a succession war for it? Regardless of how many succession wars there were, the Andoran Queen is NOT elected!

 

Other nobility houses throw their support behind a claimant. That is politicking, not democracy! If there are more than one candidate, they don't count the number of votes each candidate receives. They marshal their armies and duke it out on the battlefield!

 

 

 

Likewise, the Seanchan have misidentified the problem. A marath'damane can set herself up as a queen. So can a normal person. A marath'damane might also decide that she's quite happy in her normal life, farming or what have you. So why the need to lock her up, destroy her identity, and then use her power for your own benefit? There really isn't one. If a man is a killer, lock him up. Don't lock him up on the grounds that he might one day decide to be. If someone can shoot you with their eye lasers, don't gouge out their eyes just because they might. And if someone can channel, don't enslave them and use them as weapons just because there exists the possibility of them using themselves as weapons against you.

 

Geeze, think about this for a moment: how do you find a killer who shoots invisible lasers out of their eyes? Likewise, how do you enforce laws on channelers who can kill you by magically stopping your heart, or control your mind?

 

Your argument is like most arguments against the Seanchan: idealistic in the extreme, completely useless in practice.

[USURP888]

Likewise, the Seanchan have misidentified the problem. A marath'damane can set herself up as a queen. So can a normal person. A marath'damane might also decide that she's quite happy in her normal life, farming or what have you. So why the need to lock her up, destroy her identity, and then use her power for your own benefit? There really isn't one. If a man is a killer, lock him up. Don't lock him up on the grounds that he might one day decide to be. If someone can shoot you with their eye lasers, don't gouge out their eyes just because they might. And if someone can channel, don't enslave them and use them as weapons just because there exists the possibility of them using themselves as weapons against you.

 

I have answered it with this.

 

Their culture is alien to yours so you have a problem with it. Damane as I have repeatedly said over and over again is one aspect of their culture I don't agree with and would be pleased to see vanish. I argue that despite this negative aspect of their culture, the people in the story as it is written by RJ and BS actually prefer the Seanchan over the Randland monarchies. The Tinkers prefer their justice, the invaded actually thank them for it. Tylin and even Beslan of all people saw the rule of the Seanchan as good for their people. Rand during his darkest moment recognized this and stayed his hand because of it.

 

Now it seems you don't want that answer so let me answer it another way. Damane culture is something I don't agree with and would be happy to see abolished. The seanchan's initial reason for collaring channelers was because marath'damane causing destruction back in Seanchan was the reason they started this practice and if they can be shown that channelers need not be collared hopefully they change.

 

Now whenever I raise the rule of the Seanchan being preferred by the populace, you brush it aside, you never did answer those questions I posted for you as well right? If you read the Original post of this topic, IT IS NOT about damane, you made it so. I was curious as to what people prefer, more freedom or more security, you made it into another seanchan damane bashing thread.

 

Now if you think we are "nitpicking" between types of slavery I guess you truly just don't understand. I don't see how it is possible but it is pretty tragic.

 

Please Usurp take a step back from the edge. If you can't address the point made above in Mr. Ares post I quoted and instead start making these bizarre claims, we might have to think you are just trolling.

 

this is your civil way of making discourse? It's pretty close to a personal attack imo.