Freedom or Security

[FarShainMael]

The damane are constrained by conditioning them through the a'dam, so that if they even try to act contrary to their owners' wishes they suffer, and suffer badly. Eventually they stop even thinking about rebellion. They also stop thinking of themselves as people. They are conditioned to speak of themselves in the third person, and as we have seen, it is very difficult to break them of this habit.

 

This is a much more insidious, and IMO evil, form of control than that exerted by the Chinese government - or, indeed, any government. At least your thoughts are free!

 

And I wonder how Alivia managed to throw off 400 years of such conditioning - if indeed she has.

[solarz]

The problem, however, remains this: that the primary concern of the Seanchan Empire about Marath'Damane is not that they will randomly go around killing people, it is that they will seize political power, using the power to enforce that rule. Turning the Marath'Damane into Damane doesn't deal with this problem, it simply changes it. Now, instead of worrying about the channelers, the Seanchan now have to worry about the people who are controlling the channelers.

Certainly, the Seanchan have many methods of control over the Damane themselves, but that does not stop the problem, as is instanced by the references to rebellions in the Seanchan homeland where Damane fought on both sides.

 

So yeah, I pretty much agree with Mr. Ares.

 

On the contrary, it does solve the problem, as is shown by the fact that sul'dams do NOT control the Empire. By using the a'dam, damane has been turned from agents of free will into simple tools of destruction, and the sul'dams are the wielders of that tool.

 

A fighter jet has immense destructive power, far greater than any damane. Wouldn't you agree that it is far easier to control a pilot than it is to control, say, Starscream?

[Suttree]

The problem, however, remains this: that the primary concern of the Seanchan Empire about Marath'Damane is not that they will randomly go around killing people, it is that they will seize political power, using the power to enforce that rule. Turning the Marath'Damane into Damane doesn't deal with this problem, it simply changes it. Now, instead of worrying about the channelers, the Seanchan now have to worry about the people who are controlling the channelers.

Certainly, the Seanchan have many methods of control over the Damane themselves, but that does not stop the problem, as is instanced by the references to rebellions in the Seanchan homeland where Damane fought on both sides.

 

So yeah, I pretty much agree with Mr. Ares.

 

On the contrary, it does solve the problem, as is shown by the fact that sul'dams do NOT control the Empire. By using the a'dam, damane has been turned from agents of free will into simple tools of destruction, and the sul'dams are the wielders of that tool.

 

How do you know that in the current chaos going on in the Seanchan homeland suldam wont decide to organize and seize power?

[solarz]

How do you know that in the current chaos going on in the Seanchan homeland suldam wont decide to organize and seize power?

 

The keywords being "current chaos". When your entire political structure has been wiped out by a Forsaken, anything can happen.

[Erunion]

The problem, however, remains this: that the primary concern of the Seanchan Empire about Marath'Damane is not that they will randomly go around killing people, it is that they will seize political power, using the power to enforce that rule. Turning the Marath'Damane into Damane doesn't deal with this problem, it simply changes it. Now, instead of worrying about the channelers, the Seanchan now have to worry about the people who are controlling the channelers.

Certainly, the Seanchan have many methods of control over the Damane themselves, but that does not stop the problem, as is instanced by the references to rebellions in the Seanchan homeland where Damane fought on both sides.

 

So yeah, I pretty much agree with Mr. Ares.

 

On the contrary, it does solve the problem, as is shown by the fact that sul'dams do NOT control the Empire. By using the a'dam, damane has been turned from agents of free will into simple tools of destruction, and the sul'dams are the wielders of that tool.

 

A fighter jet has immense destructive power, far greater than any damane. Wouldn't you agree that it is far easier to control a pilot than it is to control, say, Starscream?

 

That's not a problem solved, it's just a problem shifted. The Sul'dam do not control the empire (unless, of course, you count Tuon) but the Sul'dam themselves are controlled. All the Sul'dam/Damane system does for the problem is shift it up the ranks. The Damane are cruelly oppressed and unable to control themselves, the Sul'dam control the Damane, but the Nobility control the Sul'dam (the nobility, ultimately, should follow the orders of the Emperor/Empress). This system does not deal with the problem (that problem being that the One Power is used in combat against order/the Empire), it merely shifts control out of the hands of the Damane and into the hands of the Nobility.

[solarz]

That's not a problem solved, it's just a problem shifted. The Sul'dam do not control the empire (unless, of course, you count Tuon) but the Sul'dam themselves are controlled. All the Sul'dam/Damane system does for the problem is shift it up the ranks. The Damane are cruelly oppressed and unable to control themselves, the Sul'dam control the Damane, but the Nobility control the Sul'dam (the nobility, ultimately, should follow the orders of the Emperor/Empress). This system does not deal with the problem (that problem being that the One Power is used in combat against order/the Empire), it merely shifts control out of the hands of the Damane and into the hands of the Nobility.

 

Errr... so you're saying that the Seanchan has a power hierarchy? Wow, what a revelation!

 

And the problem is not "the One Power is used in combat against order/the Empire", it's "those who can channel can rule over those who can't".

[Zentari]

 

And the problem is not "the One Power is used in combat against order/the Empire", it's "those who can channel can rule over those who can't".

Which was reversed in the seanchan.Not stopped, reversed.

 

Plus what stops the suldam is in effect the rigid hierarchical structure of the Seanchan , something which could be applied to channelers without the whole breaking them into mindless slaves part.

 

Your comparison also shows the lack of thought on your part, as well as the Seanchan's ; we are not talking about weapons here, we are talking about actual people, just like the slaves who are treated like property.So no, while it is obvious what would a human choose in your analogy, it's kinda irrelevant since we are talking about another human here.

[Suttree]

Errr... so you're saying that the Seanchan has a power hierarchy? Wow, what a revelation!

 

And the problem is not "the One Power is used in combat against order/the Empire", it's "those who can channel can rule over those who can't".

 

No the problem is enslaving other individuals and turning them into something less than human. There is absolutely no amount of rationalization that will ever make it ok.

[USURP888]

To be honest, I can never rationalize monarchies at all. What makes nobles above the rest of the masses? What gives them the right to rule over people?

 

Why heap hate on the Seanchan for enslaving damane when Kings and Queens of Randland demand the same of their people? Monarchies are nothing but dictatorship given a better title. Is it not written that nobles treat peasants little less than human that when Rand made proclamations to the effect that nobles cannot rape a peasant without consequence the Tairen Lords thought it was a joke at first?

 

So are we as readers supposed to be revolted when a channeler is enslaved but when unelected nobles lord it over the land it is ok? Either we accept the book as it is or we reject slaves and nobles as it is written in totality, do not nitpick that one enslavement is better than the other.

 

The book makes it clear, Even Rand said so himself, also the Tinkers. The Seanchan rule is better for the normal folks. If we take the masses opinion on the matter it is clear that the Seanchan is the best rulers in the land. That one aspect of their culture abhors the readers does not mean anything. When Mat is being called Prince of the Ravens in Andor, it is not with fear but with awe, even the people of andor treats that title with respect.

[Suttree]

Why heap hate on the Seanchan for enslaving damane when Kings and Queens of Randland demand the same of their people?

 

Are you seriously trying to say the average commoner in Randland is treated the same as a damane?

 

Is the Seanchan rule still better for normal folks when there 14 year old daughter is forcefully taken from their homes and turned into a sentient "pet" with all free will erased? You see they are not just enslaved, they are treated like animals. If the passages in the story showing damane being "rewarded", trained or punished don't turn your stomach their is something seriously wrong. You can not compare the average commoner, living in say Whitebridge to that by any stretch of the imagination.

 

When Mat is being called Prince of the Ravens in Andor, it is not with fear but with awe, even the people of andor treats that title with respect.

 

No they are treating Mat with respect. They have heard tell of his exploits from the Band, your average Andoran has little idea what the Prince of the Raven even means let alone thinks that the Seanchan have a superior government to their own or summat like that.

[solarz]

To be honest, I can never rationalize monarchies at all. What makes nobles above the rest of the masses? What gives them the right to rule over people?

 

Why heap hate on the Seanchan for enslaving damane when Kings and Queens of Randland demand the same of their people? Monarchies are nothing but dictatorship given a better title. Is it not written that nobles treat peasants little less than human that when Rand made proclamations to the effect that nobles cannot rape a peasant without consequence the Tairen Lords thought it was a joke at first?

 

So are we as readers supposed to be revolted when a channeler is enslaved but when unelected nobles lord it over the land it is ok? Either we accept the book as it is or we reject slaves and nobles as it is written in totality, do not nitpick that one enslavement is better than the other.

 

The book makes it clear, Even Rand said so himself, also the Tinkers. The Seanchan rule is better for the normal folks. If we take the masses opinion on the matter it is clear that the Seanchan is the best rulers in the land. That one aspect of their culture abhors the readers does not mean anything. When Mat is being called Prince of the Ravens in Andor, it is not with fear but with awe, even the people of andor treats that title with respect.

 

 

Well said.

 

No the problem is enslaving other individuals and turning them into something less than human. There is absolutely no amount of rationalization that will ever make it ok.

 

Readers need to remember that the Author is not there to cater to your personal beliefs. He is there to tell his story. It doesn't matter if you think slavery is wrong. All that matters is that the Seanchan think it's right.

 

The Seanchan don't have a problem with making people into slaves. The Seanchan *do* have a problem with channelers being able to do what they want, take what they want, and kill anyone they want. And before you say Seanchan nobility does the same: no they DON'T. If they did, the Seanchan empire would not be described as well-ruled and prosperous. There are obviously laws that do protect the common folk of Seanchan, so long as they obey the laws themselves.

[Suttree]

The Seanchan *do* have a problem with channelers being able to do what they want, take what they want, and kill anyone they want. And before you say Seanchan nobility does the same: no they DON'T. If they did, the Seanchan empire would not be described as well-ruled and prosperous. There are obviously laws that do protect the common folk of Seanchan, so long as they obey the laws themselves.

 

Really? They don't? Just a couple examples...

 

1. That awesome sport for Seanchan royalty. Let's play put the A'dam bracelet on a man and see if he dies screaming!

 

2. Say you are the Imperial Functionary when Perrin shows up with the note from Suroth looking for fork root. Just a regular decision in the course of you work day and yet "That woman knew she stood in the shadow of death as soon as she read Suroth’s words".

 

I could go on and on so give me a break...the damane system will change as Randland moves into the future, I would be willing to bet on it.

[USURP888]

The Seanchan *do* have a problem with channelers being able to do what they want, take what they want, and kill anyone they want. And before you say Seanchan nobility does the same: no they DON'T. If they did, the Seanchan empire would not be described as well-ruled and prosperous. There are obviously laws that do protect the common folk of Seanchan, so long as they obey the laws themselves.

 

Really? They don't? Just a couple examples...

 

1. That awesome sport for Seanchan royalty. Let's play put the A'dam bracelet on a man and see if he dies screaming!

 

2. Say you are the Imperial Functionary when Perrin shows up with the note from Suroth looking for fork root. Just a regular decision in the course of you work day and yet "That woman knew she stood in the shadow of death as soon as she read Suroth’s words".

 

I could go on and on so give me a break...the damane system will change as Randland moves into the future, I would be willing to bet on it.

 

whether by a'dam or by Royal decree, if a peasant is wanted by a Monarch for sport, they will be made sport. If a peasant is wanted dead by a King, he dies. You hate on the Seanchan but stay silent regarding the abomination of putting people in a pedestal because they are "nobles" and "royalty". Either you accept that the rest of the WOT world are as bad as the Seanchan or you agree that Monarchs have the "divine" right to rule. there is not nitpicking, there is no buts.

[USURP888]

Why heap hate on the Seanchan for enslaving damane when Kings and Queens of Randland demand the same of their people?

 

Are you seriously trying to say the average commoner in Randland is treated the same as a damane?

 

Is the Seanchan rule still better for normal folks when there 14 year old daughter is forcefully taken from their homes and turned into a sentient "pet" with all free will erased? You see they are not just enslaved, they are treated like animals. If the passages in the story showing damane being "rewarded", trained or punished don't turn your stomach their is something seriously wrong. You can not compare the average commoner, living in say Whitebridge to that by any stretch of the imagination.

 

When Mat is being called Prince of the Ravens in Andor, it is not with fear but with awe, even the people of andor treats that title with respect.

 

No they are treating Mat with respect. They have heard tell of his exploits from the Band, your average Andoran has little idea what the Prince of the Raven even means let alone thinks that the Seanchan have a superior government to their own or summat like that.

 

 

I see, so why don't they call Mat, the Leader of the Band then? The whole of Randland knows who the Seanchan are. Mat himself speculated this whole rumor about him being the Prince of the Ravens started from the boasting of his own army who were there when Tuon uttered the marriage vows. I believe the Andorans know exactly what the title means.

[Suttree]

The Seanchan *do* have a problem with channelers being able to do what they want, take what they want, and kill anyone they want. And before you say Seanchan nobility does the same: no they DON'T. If they did, the Seanchan empire would not be described as well-ruled and prosperous. There are obviously laws that do protect the common folk of Seanchan, so long as they obey the laws themselves.

 

Really? They don't? Just a couple examples...

 

1. That awesome sport for Seanchan royalty. Let's play put the A'dam bracelet on a man and see if he dies screaming!

 

2. Say you are the Imperial Functionary when Perrin shows up with the note from Suroth looking for fork root. Just a regular decision in the course of you work day and yet "That woman knew she stood in the shadow of death as soon as she read Suroth’s words".

 

I could go on and on so give me a break...the damane system will change as Randland moves into the future, I would be willing to bet on it.

 

whether by a'dam or by Royal decree, if a peasant is wanted by a Monarch for sport, they will be made sport. If a peasant is wanted dead by a King, he dies. You hate on the Seanchan but stay silent regarding the abomination of putting people in a pedestal because they are "nobles" and "royalty". Either you accept that the rest of the WOT world are as bad as the Seanchan or you agree that Monarchs have the "divine" right to rule. there is not nitpicking, there is no buts.

 

I just proved the point you were trying to make wrong and now you try to change the issue. It most certainly isn't an either or situation like you present. Take Andor with an elected Queen for example, tell me how the average citizen of Whitebridge is the same as a damane(which is the ludicrous OG point that you put forth) or even could be used for sport? That is a functional monarchy whose citizens are free, have rights and are for the most part prosperous.

 

And as for hating on the Seanchan? I most certainly do in relation to their collaring of women. The fact that anyone could seriously attempt to compare how the average randlander is treated to a damane is abhorrent.

 

I see, so why don't they call Mat, the Leader of the Band then? The whole of Randland knows who the Seanchan are. Mat himself speculated this whole rumor about him being the Prince of the Ravens started from the boasting of his own army who were there when Tuon uttered the marriage vows. I believe the Andorans know exactly what the title means.

 

Yes that is how they heard the title as I explained in my post. That is a far cry from them having insight into how the government of Seanchan is run. Nice of you to side step the important bit of the post though.

[Zentari]

To be honest, I can never rationalize monarchies at all. What makes nobles above the rest of the masses? What gives them the right to rule over people?

An interesting question, one however that depends on personal opinion and is largely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

 

Why heap hate on the Seanchan for enslaving damane when Kings and Queens of Randland demand the same of their people? Monarchies are nothing but dictatorship given a better title. Is it not written that nobles treat peasants little less than human that when Rand made proclamations to the effect that nobles cannot rape a peasant without consequence the Tairen Lords thought it was a joke at first?

They do ? Please feel free to point out the instances in the books where they go out of their way to destroy a person's identity when it suits them so.Not abuse mind you, but destroy.Also, nice way of comparing one horrid situation to another.Since we are at it however, mind if I compare the Seanchan to another monarchy ? Like Andor for example ? Kinda makes your argument fall flat on its face, no ?

 

So are we as readers supposed to be revolted when a channeler is enslaved but when unelected nobles lord it over the land it is ok? Either we accept the book as it is or we reject slaves and nobles as it is written in totality, do not nitpick that one enslavement is better than the other.

You are supposed to be revolted when a person's IDENTITY is crushed utterly and ruthlessly.Just look at how easy Seanchan discard and acquire names.

[USURP888]

The Seanchan *do* have a problem with channelers being able to do what they want, take what they want, and kill anyone they want. And before you say Seanchan nobility does the same: no they DON'T. If they did, the Seanchan empire would not be described as well-ruled and prosperous. There are obviously laws that do protect the common folk of Seanchan, so long as they obey the laws themselves.

 

Really? They don't? Just a couple examples...

 

1. That awesome sport for Seanchan royalty. Let's play put the A'dam bracelet on a man and see if he dies screaming!

 

2. Say you are the Imperial Functionary when Perrin shows up with the note from Suroth looking for fork root. Just a regular decision in the course of you work day and yet "That woman knew she stood in the shadow of death as soon as she read Suroth’s words".

 

I could go on and on so give me a break...the damane system will change as Randland moves into the future, I would be willing to bet on it.

 

whether by a'dam or by Royal decree, if a peasant is wanted by a Monarch for sport, they will be made sport. If a peasant is wanted dead by a King, he dies. You hate on the Seanchan but stay silent regarding the abomination of putting people in a pedestal because they are "nobles" and "royalty". Either you accept that the rest of the WOT world are as bad as the Seanchan or you agree that Monarchs have the "divine" right to rule. there is not nitpicking, there is no buts.

 

I just proved the point you were trying to make wrong and now you try to change the issue. It most certainly isn't an either or situation like you present. Take Andor with an elected Queen for example, tell me how the average citizen of Whitebridge is the same as a damane(which is the ludicrous OG point that you put forth) or even could be used for sport? That is a functional monarchy whose citizens are free, have rights and are for the most part prosperous.

 

And as for hating on the Seanchan? I most certainly do in relation to their collaring of women. The fact that anyone could seriously attempt to compare how the average randlander is treated to a damane is abhorrent.

 

I see, so why don't they call Mat, the Leader of the Band then? The whole of Randland knows who the Seanchan are. Mat himself speculated this whole rumor about him being the Prince of the Ravens started from the boasting of his own army who were there when Tuon uttered the marriage vows. I believe the Andorans know exactly what the title means.

 

Yes that is how they heard the title as I explained in my post. That is a far cry from them having insight into how the government of Seanchan is run. Nice of you to side step the important bit of the post though.

 

Change the issue? this is what the original OP is about. My original question is why the double standard on the way the Seanchan slaves are regarded here in the forums. You say the Queen is elected? by whom? by fellow nobles who were unelected but inherited their lineage. Elayne's claim on the Andoran crown and the Sun throne came by virtue of her blood not by being elected. was there any nobles in Randland who asked any peasant whom they wished to represent them?

[USURP888]

To be honest, I can never rationalize monarchies at all. What makes nobles above the rest of the masses? What gives them the right to rule over people?

An interesting question, one however that depends on personal opinion and is largely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

 

Why heap hate on the Seanchan for enslaving damane when Kings and Queens of Randland demand the same of their people? Monarchies are nothing but dictatorship given a better title. Is it not written that nobles treat peasants little less than human that when Rand made proclamations to the effect that nobles cannot rape a peasant without consequence the Tairen Lords thought it was a joke at first?

They do ? Please feel free to point out the instances in the books where they go out of their way to destroy a person's identity when it suits them so.Not abuse mind you, but destroy.Also, nice way of comparing one horrid situation to another.Since we are at it however, mind if I compare the Seanchan to another monarchy ? Like Andor for example ? Kinda makes your argument fall flat on its face, no ?

 

So are we as readers supposed to be revolted when a channeler is enslaved but when unelected nobles lord it over the land it is ok? Either we accept the book as it is or we reject slaves and nobles as it is written in totality, do not nitpick that one enslavement is better than the other.

You are supposed to be revolted when a person's IDENTITY is crushed utterly and ruthlessly.Just look at how easy Seanchan discard and acquire names.

 

 

Monarchs hold the power of life and death on the head of any of the people in their realm or do you deny that? You say there are levels of dominion, I say I do not agree, either you accept monarchies have a right over life and death over its people or you do not. If a monarch choose to be kind, it is STILL up to that monarch and the people has no say in the matter, if a generation or two from now Andor has a ruler who is a despot, the Andoran people would still have no say in the matter.

 

That Morgase and Elayne are good rulers are not to be disputed but the fact that they are monarchs and they rule by virtue of blood is my point. That is the same as the Seanchan, their empress rule by virtue of blood not because they were elected by the masses. And both these rulers have total power over their subjects or do you dispute that fact?

[SylvanFox]

I'm not sure I buy the whole "we should collar/kill the channelers because they have the power to rule over us." We don't kill rich people, and they have the power to rule over us.

 

Just because all of us have some vague hope of getting rich one day, as opposed to channeling where we have no hope of gaining that power? Is that enough of a difference? Plus, just as some rich people prefer to just do what they do instead of ruling the world with an iron fist, there would be channelers with similar attitudes. If you are going to assume that everyone with any ability you don't and won't have is out to get you, that comes off more as jealousy IMO

[Suttree]

Change the issue? this is what the original OP is about. My original question is why the double standard on the way the Seanchan slaves are regarded here in the forums.

 

and that question has been answered time and time again. I'm starting to realize you understand how wrong you are because every time it is proven why a damane and the Seanchan dehumanizing are so much worse you shift to something else. Please answer the questions posed in earlier posts. How can you possibly try and compare the average citizen of Randland to a Damane? Name one instance where Randland Monarchies went out of their way to destroy the complete identities and free will of their people.

 

Monarchs hold the power of life and death on the head of any of the people in their realm or do you deny that? You say there are levels of dominion, I say I do not agree, either you accept monarchies have a right over life and death over its people or you do not. If a monarch choose to be kind, it is STILL up to that monarch and the people has no say in the matter, if a generation or two from now Andor has a ruler who is a despot, the Andoran people would still have no say in the matter.

 

Yes they would because the citizens of Andor have free speech, unlike the Seanchan who have to constantly watch what they say lest listeners & seekers snatch them up in the middle of the night for voicing opposition to the empress. We already have seen what would happen when Gaebril was in power. There were Queens and Kings men supporting both sides, taking to the streets and almost starting a revolt. Not to mention the other houses wouldn't put up with a despot. In all the history of Andor there hasn't been an abusive monarch(aside from a forsaken) due in large part to the system of checks in place.

[JKN-SW]

Change the issue? this is what the original OP is about. My original question is why the double standard on the way the Seanchan slaves are regarded here in the forums.

 

and that question has been answered time and time again. I'm starting to realize you understand how wrong you are because every time it is proven why a damane and the Seanchan dehumanizing are so much worse you shift to something else. Please answer the question posed in earlier posts. How can you possibly try and compare the average citizen of Randland to a Damane?

 

Monarchs hold the power of life and death on the head of any of the people in their realm or do you deny that? You say there are levels of dominion, I say I do not agree, either you accept monarchies have a right over life and death over its people or you do not. If a monarch choose to be kind, it is STILL up to that monarch and the people has no say in the matter, if a generation or two from now Andor has a ruler who is a despot, the Andoran people would still have no say in the matter.

 

Yes they would because the citizens of Andor have free speech. We already seen what would happen when Gaebril was in power, There were Queens and Kings men supporting both sides, taking to the streets and almost starting a revolt. Not to mention the other houses wouldn't put up with a despot. In all the history of Andor there hasn't been an abusive monarch(aside from a forsaken) due in large part to the system of checks in place.

 

Wich is also demonstrated when Rand first comes to Caemlyn, and the people are divided between followers of the queen and those who oppose her, and both sides wear their markings open. It may not be a full democracy, but it's hell of a long way from the dictatorship of the Seanchan.

[USURP888]

And suttree you never did answer my question did you? would you deny that kings and queens have the power of life and death over their subject?and YES I SEE all people who are under the rule of Monarchs the same. They are all ants at the mercy of their rulers or is that not clear enough of an answer yet.

 

I accept that in this fantasy story that we both love, there are rulers and there are the ruled and also it is made quite clear in the books that those ruled by the Seanchan love them more than those ruled by Randland monarchs love theirs. or do you deny that that is what is written in the books as well? or would you answer with yet another accusation and another question?

 

The other houses and the people who are revolting are those NOBLES who were left out of favor. They rebel not because they cry for the common people, they rebel to protect their own houses. You exhibit willful blindness and refuse to see the difference.

[Suttree]

And suttree you never did answer my question did you? would you deny that kings and queens have the power of life and death over their subject?and YES I SEE all people who are under the rule of Monarchs the same. They are all ants at the mercy of their rulers or is that not clear enough of an answer yet.

 

I accept that in this fantasy story that we both love, there are rulers and there are the ruled and also it is made quite clear in the books that those ruled by the Seanchan love them more than those ruled by Randland monarchs love theirs. or do you deny that that is what is written in the books as well? or would you answer with yet another accusation and another question?

 

The other houses and the people who are revolting are those NOBLES who were left out of favor. They rebel not because they cry for the common people, they rebel to protect their own houses. You exhibit willful blindness and refuse to see the difference.

 

Yes I would deny it. No Andoran citizen need worry about life or death unless they commit a serious crime. This isn't the case in Seanchan where one can be murdered for GASP looking at the Empress. Or voicing a protest about a certain aspect of life they are unhappy with and disappearing in the middle of the night because the listeners and seekers took them. Or even because the nobles thought it would be fun to put an A'dam on you and see if you die screaming.

 

As to the last part of your post you are wrong yet again and it's funny you didn't even realize what I was talking about. Willful blindness much? Yes the people revolting WERE going to be commoners. When Rand comes to Caemlyn they were openly wearing colors for who they supported and holding political based meetings in the streets.

 

Now I answered your question, please do the same...oh wait you can't. Turning someone into a sentient "pet", erasing their identity and taking away free will in every aspect of their life has no relative comparison in this series.

[JKN-SW]

And suttree you never did answer my question did you? would you deny that kings and queens have the power of life and death over their subject?and YES I SEE all people who are under the rule of Monarchs the same. They are all ants at the mercy of their rulers or is that not clear enough of an answer yet.

 

I accept that in this fantasy story that we both love, there are rulers and there are the ruled and also it is made quite clear in the books that those ruled by the Seanchan love them more than those ruled by Randland monarchs love theirs. or do you deny that that is what is written in the books as well? or would you answer with yet another accusation and another question?

 

The other houses and the people who are revolting are those NOBLES who were left out of favor. They rebel not because they cry for the common people, they rebel to protect their own houses. You exhibit willful blindness and refuse to see the difference.

 

Also for a comparison, for Randland it is stated several times troughout the series that not even the monarchs are above the law. In Seanchan on the other hand, the Empress IS the law.

 

As for the people under the Seanchan "loving" them, it is rather a matter of them beeing are content with the order they bring. (Kind of like in your original RW comparison.) In a world where the Dragon is reborn, the DO moves and TG is drawing closer, it is a very specific situation. Even democracys restrict personal freedom in times of war or other dire crises. But for the Seanchan, it is the natural way of things, not a way to handle a crisis.

[USURP888]

And suttree you never did answer my question did you? would you deny that kings and queens have the power of life and death over their subject?and YES I SEE all people who are under the rule of Monarchs the same. They are all ants at the mercy of their rulers or is that not clear enough of an answer yet.

 

I accept that in this fantasy story that we both love, there are rulers and there are the ruled and also it is made quite clear in the books that those ruled by the Seanchan love them more than those ruled by Randland monarchs love theirs. or do you deny that that is what is written in the books as well? or would you answer with yet another accusation and another question?

 

The other houses and the people who are revolting are those NOBLES who were left out of favor. They rebel not because they cry for the common people, they rebel to protect their own houses. You exhibit willful blindness and refuse to see the difference.

 

Yes I would deny it. No Andoran citizen need worry about life or death unless they commit a serious crime. This isn't the case in Seanchan where one can be murdered for GASP looking at the Empress. Or voicing a protest about a certain aspect of life they are unhappy with and disappearing in the middle of the night because the listeners and seekers took them. Or even because the nobles thought it would be fun to put an A'dam on you and see if you die screaming.

 

As to the last part of your post you are wrong yet again and it's funny you didn't even realize what I was talking about. Willful blindness much? Yes the people revolting WERE going to be commoners. When Rand comes to Caemlyn they were openly wearing colors for who they supported and holding political based meetings in the streets.

 

Now I answered your question, please do the same...oh wait you can't. Turning someone into a sentient "pet", erasing their identity and taking away free will in every aspect of their life has no relative comparison in this series.

 

Read my first paragraph and tell me that I did not answer your question. A slave is a slave, ruled people are ruled. Where in the book did you read the Laws of Andor? Why do you keep your arguments to just Andor vs Seanchan? why not include the rest of the monarchies. As for damane, I will say that is part of the Seanchan culture I will be most pleased to see gone. That does not take away the fact that their citizens love their Empress even more so than the population of Randland love theirs.

 

Andor and the rest of the monarchies practice torture as a means to question as well or do you deny that? Elayne herself think it right that lesser beings die for her because she is Queen or did you forget her arguments with Birgitte about it? Damane , damane , damane, that's all you blatter on about while you turn a blind eye from the fact that Monarchies all over have the power of life and death over their people. Even Jain Farstrider told mat that he's seen worse than damane.