Snakes, Foxes, and the World of Dreams

[Nightangel486]

After finishing ToM, I'm left wondering if the two are related somehow. It is not really known where the world of the Aelfinn/Eelfinn is, but the ways in which the tower manipulates reality seems similar to TAR. There is also the same feeling of being watched by unseen eyes.

 

So, is it possible the unseen eyes in TAR are the Aelfinn and Eelfinn? If they feed on people's memories and feelings--especially fear--what better place to grab a snack than watching someone's nightmares and dreams? Is their world the World of Dreams?

 

it makes me wonder if Perrin had gone into the Tower with the others, if he would have been able to manipulate reality while they were there as he does in the Wolf Dream.

[rand4747]

After finishing ToM, I'm left wondering if the two are related somehow. It is not really known where the world of the Aelfinn/Eelfinn is, but the ways in which the tower manipulates reality seems similar to TAR. There is also the same feeling of being watched by unseen eyes.

 

So, is it possible the unseen eyes in TAR are the Aelfinn and Eelfinn? If they feed on people's memories and feelings--especially fear--what better place to grab a snack than watching someone's nightmares and dreams? Is their world the World of Dreams?

 

it makes me wonder if Perrin had gone into the Tower with the others, if he would have been able to manipulate reality while they were there as he does in the Wolf Dream.

 

Its not the world of dreams, but it does appear to have similar properties, but it seems more "Real". The changing of the corridors and other things seems to be alot of optical illusion and possibly walls and rooms actually move without feeling it moving.

[nojnomad]

The land of the Aelfinn/Eelfinn are (IMO) made up of the minds of all of the readers that the Darkone (RJ) has driven over the brink with the madening wait for the next book...

 

edited to add:

If you are looking for serious answer from me today you can just forget it. There isn't enough coffee and I just can't get the idea of Robert Jordan being the darkone out of my mind.

[mb]

Claiming that Robert Jordan was the Dark One or even a darkfriend to me disrespects the author.

 

 

Aelfinn & Eelfinn seem to reside in a totally different world.

Moiraine told in Shadow Rising that their world is like folded.

[herid]

After finishing ToM, I'm left wondering if the two are related somehow. It is not really known where the world of the Aelfinn/Eelfinn is, but the ways in which the tower manipulates reality seems similar to TAR. There is also the same feeling of being watched by unseen eyes.

 

So, is it possible the unseen eyes in TAR are the Aelfinn and Eelfinn? If they feed on people's memories and feelings--especially fear--what better place to grab a snack than watching someone's nightmares and dreams? Is their world the World of Dreams?

 

it makes me wonder if Perrin had gone into the Tower with the others, if he would have been able to manipulate reality while they were there as he does in the Wolf Dream.

nice idea but no, the Finn World has nothing to do with the world of dreams. It's a parallel world with a different set of natural laws. The Finns don't manipulate reality the way it's possible in TAR. They just follow the rules of their world which are different from ours. RJ clarified that in interviews

 

WinespringBrother reporting:

 

WinespringBrother: Does the physical location of the world of 'Finns have anything to do with the bells ringing when the ta'veren were in together?

Jordan: No.

WinespringBrother: Have the 'Finns existed as long as the Wheel?

Jordan: Yes.

WinespringBrother: Do they have souls?

Jordan: Yes.

WinespringBrother: Are the 'Finns from human stock?

Jordan: No.

WinespringBrother: Did they originate in their current location?

Jordan: Yes.

WinespringBrother: Are they related to Tel'aran'rhiod or do they control Tel'aran'rhiod?

Jordan: No.

 

Tamyrlin: The 'Finns reside in a Parallel World, is that correct?

Jordan: Yes.

Tamyrlin: Okay, so are Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds the same thing?

Jordan: No, they are different.

Tamyrlin: Okay, well then do Parallel Worlds have their own reflections?

Jordan: Possibly.

[Stitch]

I think they are those who have lived in TAR for a very long time, even generations. While we are told that they are not Darkspawn, we are told that going there in the flesh loses something of the person's humanity, perhaps these snakes and foxes are those who have traveled into the dream and become something 'else'. While Mog implies that those who dream themselves there are more powerful in some respects, I believe that the Snakes and Foxes have come in the flesh while retaining control, or perhaps they have simply been there so long that they have come to understand it in ways the Foresaken never did.

 

What is dreamed is real to those that dream it - if someone dies there they die here - and we are told they only affect what is within their realm (the wisher) so in that respect the Foxes might envisage Mat with the memories of those others (memories that they have stolen through their ability to look into people's dreams - which I believe is how the Snake's get their answers, they are dreamers) and to picture him with that scary ass medallion and the spear. Now, we know that envisaging such a thing (and holding onto that perception) influences the dream to such an extent that it can become real (e.g. Wise Ones continuously change people's clothes, leashing of Mog, etc), so it is quite possible that that they use TAR as a basis of their powers could be supported through the snakes' answers (dreamers) and the foxes wishes (envisaging).

[mb]

About going to Telaranrhiod in the flesh, loosing humanity is Wise One belief.

Whether the Wise Ones are right or wrong about this, that seems uncertain right now.

[Stitch]

Agreed, not enough information. Those were merely my inferences given that the information given was correct.

[Callern]

 

nice idea but no, the Finn World has nothing to do with the world of dreams. It's a parallel world with a different set of natural laws. The Finns don't manipulate reality the way it's possible in TAR. They just follow the rules of their world which are different from ours. RJ clarified that in interviews

 

WinespringBrother reporting:

 

 

WinespringBrother: Are they related to Tel'aran'rhiod or do they control Tel'aran'rhiod?

Jordan: No.

 

Tamyrlin: The 'Finns reside in a Parallel World, is that correct?

Jordan: Yes.

 

Hmm.

 

The Pattern that is woven of men's lives is only one reality, part of a greater Pattern woven of each and every possible reality. But between the weave of this Great Pattern are spaces, and it is there that the ancients believed Tel'aran'rhiod exists.

That implies that the TAR is not necessarily something unique to Randland, but TAR might possibly be in all the Parallel Worlds too. After all, the parallel worlds are a part of the Great Pattern, are they not? So when WinespringBrother asked if the Finns were "related" to TAR, what does that mean?

And if you could enter TAR in one world, would it not be possible to use the same portals as the waking world has?

[herid]

 

nice idea but no, the Finn World has nothing to do with the world of dreams. It's a parallel world with a different set of natural laws. The Finns don't manipulate reality the way it's possible in TAR. They just follow the rules of their world which are different from ours. RJ clarified that in interviews

 

WinespringBrother reporting:

 

 

WinespringBrother: Are they related to Tel'aran'rhiod or do they control Tel'aran'rhiod?

Jordan: No.

 

Tamyrlin: The 'Finns reside in a Parallel World, is that correct?

Jordan: Yes.

 

Hmm.

 

The Pattern that is woven of men's lives is only one reality, part of a greater Pattern woven of each and every possible reality. But between the weave of this Great Pattern are spaces, and it is there that the ancients believed Tel'aran'rhiod exists.

That implies that the TAR is not necessarily something unique to Randland, but TAR might possibly be in all the Parallel Worlds too. After all, the parallel worlds are a part of the Great Pattern, are they not? So when WinespringBrother asked if the Finns were "related" to TAR, what does that mean?

And if you could enter TAR in one world, would it not be possible to use the same portals as the waking world has?

ok, this is somewhat tricky. According to RJ there are Mirror worlds (those that can be reached by portal stones). They definitely have reflections in TAR. and then there are Parallel worlds like the world of Finns. Those might or might not have reflections in TAR or they might even have their own TARs and their own Patterns. None of this is made very clear. But that quote above strongly suggests that Finns have nothing to do with TAR and that this is just a wrong whole to dig. there are more quotes to support that

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

 

Q: Also, what was going on in Aelfland when Mat went round and round and round the same location? Were they traveling in time?

RJ: Not traveling in time. the physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the Dark One here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is really bad. You can not go to Aelfland in Tel'aran'rhiod (similar to stedding).

[Callern]

 

ok, this is somewhat tricky. According to RJ there are Mirror worlds (those that can be reached by portal stones). They definitely have reflections in TAR. and then there are Parallel worlds like the world of Finns. Those might or might not have reflections in TAR or they might even have their own TARs and their own Patterns. None of this is made very clear. But that quote above strongly suggests that Finns have nothing to do with TAR and that this is just a wrong whole to dig. there are more quotes to support that

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

 

Q: Also, what was going on in Aelfland when Mat went round and round and round the same location? Were they traveling in time?

RJ: Not traveling in time. the physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the Dark One here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is really bad. You can not go to Aelfland in Tel'aran'rhiod (similar to stedding).

 

Ah, here we go, thanks.

[Stitch]

Yet we see Slayer doing so... or is it merely that the outside of the tower is represented but nothing within (which by the way would put them outside of Tar and hence not in one of those 'spaces' between the worlds, which IMO suggests an enclosed separate space (like a world would be) - truth is I overlooked the possibility that they might be capable of either creating or maintaining such an area.

[SylvanFox]

I never got the impression that they were related to T'A'R, but I figured they have something to do with Slayer, since he went into the Tower of Ghenjei in TAR in tSR. But as was stated before, maybe he didn't go to the Finns'.

 

Another weird thing was when Lanfear was there. If someone came for her, why was she reborn as Cyndane? Or did they come to kill her?

[Sharaman]

I never got the impression that they were related to T'A'R, but I figured they have something to do with Slayer, since he went into the Tower of Ghenjei in TAR in tSR. But as was stated before, maybe he didn't go to the Finns'.

 

Another weird thing was when Lanfear was there. If someone came for her, why was she reborn as Cyndane? Or did they come to kill her?

She died.

Perhaps she died before the "someone who came for her" arrived.

Or, that somebody mis-bargained and the Finns deliberately killed her (according to Moiraine because they drained her too fast of power) and then handed over the dead body.

[SylvanFox]

And who came for her? I'm assuming someone did, because Mo says "A man was there once, when they woke me. He said I was not the one he wanted." Which is mostly weird because it's Lanfear. Who would rescue her? Somebody sent by Moridin or the DO?

 

Actually, that would make it more interesting if TAR was related to Finnland. Then Lanfear got owned in her own domain.

[herid]

I never got the impression that they were related to T'A'R, but I figured they have something to do with Slayer, since he went into the Tower of Ghenjei in TAR in tSR. But as was stated before, maybe he didn't go to the Finns'.

 

Another weird thing was when Lanfear was there. If someone came for her, why was she reborn as Cyndane? Or did they come to kill her?

She died.

Perhaps she died before the "someone who came for her" arrived.

Or, that somebody mis-bargained and the Finns deliberately killed her (according to Moiraine because they drained her too fast of power) and then handed over the dead body.

Lanfear may also have died when she and whoever came for her were trying to get out of the Finn-land. we discussed that before in this thread.

[mb]

Yet we see Slayer doing so

Actually that is uncertain.

Stepping out of Telaranrhiod or going to another location in Telaranrhiod seem more likely.