What actually is the Horn of Valere?

[Guest Majsju]

They must be physical in their appearance, or they wouldn't be able to touch their enemies. As for how rocks would put a halt to them, just experiment at home. Have some friends put something very heavy on your legs. heavy enough that you are not able to lift them on your own, but not so heavy they will break your legs. The object has not damaged you, but it does stop you from moving.

 

Now, it's about the same thing with the heroes. Except that they should be able to free themselves from whatever weight is put on top of them. They can't be damaged, but they still have to somehow get rid of the objects stopping them.

 

I don't think they can switch beween physical and not-so-physical manifestations out of pure will, once the Horn has been sounded, they have a physical body until it's time to disappear again.

[Bob T Dwarf]

There are merits to both sides of this, I guess.

 

However...

 

At Falme, Birgitte rides her horse across the top of the waves and then sets fire to an entire Seanchan warship with one ( metaphysical ) arrow.

 

Now, the Heroes aren't gods. That occurence argues that, however physical they may appear, their physicality is unlike anyone else's.

 

If a bay full of water won't stop one of them, a buncha rocks is unlikely to stop, or even impede, any of them.

[RobertAlexWillis]

They must be physical in their appearance, or they wouldn't be able to touch their enemies. As for how rocks would put a halt to them, just experiment at home. Have some friends put something very heavy on your legs. heavy enough that you are not able to lift them on your own, but not so heavy they will break your legs. The object has not damaged you, but it does stop you from moving.

 

Now, it's about the same thing with the heroes. Except that they should be able to free themselves from whatever weight is put on top of them. They can't be damaged, but they still have to somehow get rid of the objects stopping them.

 

I don't think they can switch beween physical and not-so-physical manifestations out of pure will, once the Horn has been sounded, they have a physical body until it's time to disappear again.

 

That is, in my opinion, a fallacious argument. The same rules of physics that make a rock in the head kill you are the rules that make a rock on your legs slow you down. So if one applies, both should, and if one doesn't, neither does.

[algspkr]

They must be physical in their appearance, or they wouldn't be able to touch their enemies. As for how rocks would put a halt to them, just experiment at home. Have some friends put something very heavy on your legs. heavy enough that you are not able to lift them on your own, but not so heavy they will break your legs. The object has not damaged you, but it does stop you from moving.

 

Now, it's about the same thing with the heroes. Except that they should be able to free themselves from whatever weight is put on top of them. They can't be damaged, but they still have to somehow get rid of the objects stopping them.

 

I don't think they can switch beween physical and not-so-physical manifestations out of pure will, once the Horn has been sounded, they have a physical body until it's time to disappear again.

 

That is, in my opinion, a fallacious argument. The same rules of physics that make a rock in the head kill you are the rules that make a rock on your legs slow you down. So if one applies, both should, and if one doesn't, neither does.

Lets say you have a raido controlled car. This is not just any car, it is indistructable, with a very powerful engine. If you drop a heavy rock on it, because it is indistructable it will not break, but if you drop a bunch of very heavy rocky on it, it will take time for it to drive out from underneath the rocks. And so it is with the heros of the horn.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, my point is, that while they appear to have a normal physical form, ordinary physical constraints do not apply to them.

 

Normal people do not walk ( or in this case ride horses ) on water. One could put a trench in front of them, and they'd likely just ride across the air above the trench.

 

The Wheel maintains them for a purpose. When the circumstances for employing them are met, the Wheel gives them whatever they need to do the job it needs done. Floods won't stop them, gales won't stop them, and rocks won't stop them.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Lets say you have a raido controlled car. This is not just any car, it is indistructable, with a very powerful engine. If you drop a heavy rock on it, because it is indistructable it will not break, but if you drop a bunch of very heavy rocky on it, it will take time for it to drive out from underneath the rocks. And so it is with the heros of the horn.

 

While it is strange for me to agree with Bob, I do in this case.

 

That "raido controlled car" would not be able to ride over water, even if it was "indistructable". But Birgitte could. The One Power would touch an "indistructable" car, even if it didn't destroy it, but it did not touch the heroes. The only thing that slowed them or made them falter was when their leader, Rand, slowed or faltered.

[Mat alKaff]

In the series, a lot of Heroes are mentioned, from great generals to great warriors...I've read the whole series only once so I'm not sure about this,

but is there a single Hero who could channel? I've not yet come across any mention of one...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Rand al'Thor.

[Bob T Dwarf]

We know from Birgitte that all of the Heroes get spun out in various guises at various times. Those who wait in T'A'R, do so in their most legendary form. Hawkwing may have had 50 different names and forms but when the Horn summons, he appears as Hawkwing.

 

My guess is that the Heroes are entirely metaphysical; meant to embody some eternal Truth. Hawkwing carries the sword Justice. He's probably meant to embody reasoned judgement. Each of the others is likewise the embodiment of some Truth or Value that always wins out in the end. As such embodiments; values and precepts that ultimately cannot be ignored or defeated, channeling would be redundant.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah, that was a little tongue in cheek, normal rules don't apply to the heroes.

 

They're not entirely metaphysical though ... unless you consider an individual soul metaphysical. There are definitely a number of actual individual souls who make up their number, which can be added to. Unless that means adding a new "principle" to the universe, then they are not just embodiments of principles.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Some theologies have hundreds and thousands of gods, each of whom is the embodiment of a fundamental principle of existence. We're only looking at ~100 here. There's plenty of room for additions. Hawking even says that the Wheel adds to their number from time-to-time.

 

To me, the whole concept of a soul is metaphysical. We've been told we have one, but nobody has ever seen one. So, assuming that all of that is true, we don't really know what it looks like or how it behaves when not contained within a living body.

 

We only have one sample; Falme; from which to estimate the full range of capabilities of the Heroes. We probably ought to wait and see what Jordan comes up with.

[RobertAlexWillis]

So, assuming that all of that is true, we don't really know what it looks like or how it behaves when not contained within a living body.

 

How about the way Birgitte behaved when she was helping the Wonder Twins in Tel'aran'rhiod before she was ripped out. She was a soul between spinnings then, but she acted like a normal person.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, she did. She seemed to be somebody who was just trying to help out a couple of ( slightly ) foolish children who were in over their heads.

 

What I was referring to was how they might behave and what capabilities they might manifest in a combat situation.

 

In the overall scale of things, Falme was a skirmish. TG figures to be full-scale war.

 

That might makes some difference and it might not. All I'm saying is that with a sample size of 1 it's best not to crawl too far out on the predictive limb of the tree.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its not unreasonable to suggest they have abilities that were not necessarily manifested at Falme. That was a relatively short exposure.

 

Of course, it wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest that they are not capable of staying out for a long time either. We don't have any parameters on that. Everything they did, in the case of Falme, seemed to be simply a link to their leader, Rand al'Thor. If he went forward, they went forward, if he faltered, they faltered, etc. When he gets stuck and passes out, delivering the knockout blow to Ish'alza'din (I just like calling him that), they delivered a knowckout blow to the Seanchan and split. (Birgitte sort of foreshadows her coming willingness to violate the precepts by being the last one to go.) So really, we don't know how long they can stay. Are they always linked to their leader? What if Mat blows the Horn and Rand isn't around? How long can they be forced to stay out? If their leader falters, can they actually lose? All of these are things we don't really know the answer to.

 

The point of my previous post was to demonstrate that even while they are between spinnings, chilling as souls in Tel'aran'rhiod, they are still individuals, not "embodiments of principles". Birgitte is definitely a human individual, even without her body, and since she is the only example we have (other than shadowy glimpses of Gaidal), it is most logical to assume that the others, in a similar fashion, remain individual souls, rather than "embodied principles". Albeit souls with some rather interesting abilities.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'd agree. They remain individual souls with ordinary human temperaments, etc.

 

Even so, they are obviously more than your average group of ordinary people. There is something about each one's character that has caused the Wheel to single them out and preserve them against future need.

 

I've chosen to interpret that as being a group that embodies eternal veritae. But, that's just my own preference. Jordan may intend for them to represent something entirely different.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Perhaps the group as a whole could be considered to represent some Everlasting Truth, but the individuals seem too human to be so abstract. In my opinion.

[Duncun42]

To get back to the Rand/Horn thread if I may, would it not be feasable to assume that since the Horn has to be present at TG and The Dragon has to be at TG, then the The Dragon is not bound to the Horn but necessary for it to be found and sounded.

Your thoughts?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Rand is bound to the Wheel. None of the heroes are bound to the Horn, they're bound to the Wheel. The Horn just taps into that.

 

So no, the Dragon's soul isn't inherently bound to the Horn. Neither is Artur Hawkwing or anyone else. But since they are all bound to the Wheel, and the Horn is built to access that, Rand is bound to the Horn in the same sense that the rest are, because he's bound to the Wheel in the same sense that the rest are. If it's blown when he is in Tel'aran'rhiod waiting to be spun out, he would be called like the rest of them.

[yolindamo]

I am not sure I agree with that at all. I think that the heroes that are called by the Horn are linked to it not just the Wheel. I mean they are call the Heroes of the Horn. The Horn calls the souls of these specific people. That being said, I think it will affect Brigette when the Horn is sounded for TG. Dont know how.

 

Is there a soul that is a Hero that is known as the Dragon and is that soul linked to the Horn? If there is one soul that is the Dragon, why are Rand and LTT both present and arguing in Rand's head? Why are there not two people arguing in Brigette's head?

 

My point is that I dont think the Dragon is the same as the other Heroes of the Horn. He is not bound to it in the same way they are. His spinning out is not the same as their's . This is just things I think and wonder about based on my reading of the text. Show me if I'm wrong.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Horn is a construct. That means it is built, sometime in the turning of the Wheel. The Heroes are definitely bound to the Wheel, and still stay there even when there is not a Horn.

 

All of the statements made by Hawkwing at Falme to Rand were inclusive. "The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern." (said directly to Rand, making the "us" inclusive, emphasis added). "Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." (implying that the procedure he undergoes is the same as theirs).

 

(Both from The Great Hunt, chapter 47, The Grave Is No Bar To My Call)

 

There is no sentence in the books stating "The Dragon is just like the other Heroes". But all the things the Heroes say indicate that such is the case.

 

If there is one soul that is the Dragon, why are Rand and LTT both present and arguing in Rand's head?

 

The leftover memories of a past personality are a part of the Pattern's purpose for Rand this time around. He learns things from LTT that he couldn't learn any other way, and without those things, he'd likely be dead now. It is likely that his plan for how to deal with the Bore (and he seems to have one, though we haven't seen it yet) is based in part on LTT's memories of what he did wrong.

 

They are definitely one soul, however. In the world of the Wheel, when the same soul is reborn, it does not have the same personality, but it is the same soul.

[Thor]

How come you are not talking about Mat? The balefire reconnected him to the horn.

[Guest Majsju]

How come you are not talking about Mat? The balefire reconnected him to the horn.

 

Because Mat's connection to the Horn is quite different from the Heroes connection. The Heroes are the ones appearing when the horn is blown, Mat is the current dude able to blow it.

 

And Rand is not connected to the Horn, that is just ridicilous.

 

Heroes: Bound to the Wheel in order to occasionally be spun out to make sure things does not drift away from the Wheel's intended plan. As Hawkwing mentions to Rand, they have met both as enemies and allies, which means the Heroes are not necessarily always fighting directly for the Light, they are just a tool doing what needs to be done. And since the Horn works for whoever blows it, maybe not the smartest move to have the Dragon obey someone like Ishy...

 

Rand: Bound to the Wheel for ONE purpose, fight the DO at crucial points in the Wheel's turning.

[yolindamo]

Ok...I agree that Rand ie the Dragon is bound to the Wheel, but what I am not sure about is that he is bound to the horn. He doesnt seem to be affected by it in the same way as the other heroes.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Heroes: Bound to the Wheel in order to occasionally be spun out to make sure things does not drift away from the Wheel's intended plan. As Hawkwing mentions to Rand, they have met both as enemies and allies, which means the Heroes are not necessarily always fighting directly for the Light, they are just a tool doing what needs to be done. And since the Horn works for whoever blows it, maybe not the smartest move to have the Dragon obey someone like Ishy...

 

Rand: Bound to the Wheel for ONE purpose, fight the DO at crucial points in the Wheel's turning.

 

And yet Birgitte says quite clearly in The Shadow Rising, "The Shadow rises again, Gaidal. It rises here. We must fight it. That is the reason we are bound to the Wheel." (chapter 52, Need)

 

So, the Heroes are bound to the Wheel for exactly the same purpose as the Dragon. The Horn is like the One Power. It is a tool which can be used for good or evil. It's not the smartest move to have any of the Heroes obey someone like Ishy, but it is apparently the case that it could happen. So thats not an argument against Rand being bound to it.

[Guest Majsju]

And yet Birgitte says quite clearly in The Shadow Rising, "The Shadow rises again, Gaidal. It rises here. We must fight it. That is the reason we are bound to the Wheel." (chapter 52, Need)

 

And yet, Hawkwing's actions clearly contradicts what Birgitte says there, as a lot of his actions hardly belonged on the good side.

 

The Heroes are a tool, spun out to correct the Wheel when it spins a bit off, or to perform an important action in a more efficient way. If they had been equals to the Dragon like you suggest, they would just like the Dragon only have been spun out this one time the past 3000 years, but both Birgitte and hawkwing are obvious evidence that ain't so.

 

And if the Heroes are equals to the Dragon like you suggest, screw the moron Rand and send birgitte to do the job instead. Hey, they are equals, right?