What actually is the Horn of Valere?

[Bob T Dwarf]

What the progression throughout these books seems to be proving is that this series is more trite and cliched than it first appeared it was going to be.

 

In case you can't tell, I aint best pleased by that.

[Guest Majsju]

And in opposition you offer what... the semantic argument that Rand can't be a bound soul because that would make him too cool?

 

Well, that is a point that works both ways. The Dragon is not just a Hero, spun out occasionally to correct things when the Wheel needs things to be corrected, or events dealt with more efficiently. In that sense, the Heroes are not much more than ta'veren, they serve pretty much the same purpose. But not necessarily fighting actively for the Light while doing this. As Hawkwing himself stated, he has fought against the Dragon just as well as with him.

 

The Dragon on the other hand, that is a unique soul. The Lights Champion. The big cat. He is not spun otu for some minor correction of events, he is spun out to one way or another fight the DO.

 

The heroes are spun our on a more or less regular basis, the Dragon had to wait 3000 years to get reborn. The difference between them is so blatantly obvious even Elaida would notice it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, likewise, nothing says that the soul of The Dragon is only spun out AS The Dragon.

 

Birgitte seems to have experienced some fairly mundane lives. As far as we know, the others have as well. IOW, there is no known requirement that they only get spun out to function as heroes.

 

All we really know is that there is a special pool of souls who periodically do get spun out to accomplish heroic tasks. That pool numbers approximately 100 as of now.

 

Whether they get to lie around TaR doing nothing until a hero is needed, is an open question. Maybe they do, and maybe they get tapped to be Boris the Baker for awhile as well. There is simply no way to tell.

[Guest Majsju]

Birgitte seems to have experienced some fairly mundane lives

 

Does she now?

 

Mundane is perhaps not the most appropriate word given what she herself has said about her past lives...

 

And it is a very well established fact that there are no incarnatione between LTT and Rand. Zip. Nada. Nichts. That is kinda one of the main points about the entire series.

[Jellybelly]

Now he will in all probability start ranting about how Guaire Amalasan also was Lews Therin reborn, proved by the fact that the war he started was named The War of the Second Dragon. :roll:

 

I agree with Majsju, though, I do not see Rand as being one of the Heroes. Didn't Jordan comment on this at one time, though?

[Guest Majsju]

I do not see Rand as being one of the Heroes. Didn't Jordan comment on this at one time, though?

 

Not that I can recall, and I have read most things said by RJ that can still be found.

 

I think he would RAFO any such question though, as it seems like a question where the answer would indirectly reveal other things. Dear old RJ does have a bit of a hard time just answering with a simple yes or no, after all :D

[maximus34]

If you will remember also, that while Moiraine was doing all her research on various topics... whe specifficaly asked if there was anything anywhere that linked the horn to the Dragon Reborn.... the reply was NO.... just that the horn had to be present at the last battle. That sould be sufficient for the whole "is the dragon linked to the horn" debate.

[Luckers]

Well, that is a point that works both ways. The Dragon is not just a Hero, spun out occasionally to correct things when the Wheel needs things to be corrected, or events dealt with more efficiently. In that sense, the Heroes are not much more than ta'veren, they serve pretty much the same purpose. But not necessarily fighting actively for the Light while doing this. As Hawkwing himself stated, he has fought against the Dragon just as well as with him.

 

The Dragon on the other hand, that is a unique soul. The Lights Champion. The big cat. He is not spun otu for some minor correction of events, he is spun out to one way or another fight the DO.

 

The heroes are spun our on a more or less regular basis, the Dragon had to wait 3000 years to get reborn. The difference between them is so blatantly obvious even Elaida would notice it.

 

Actually the only thing Hawkwing states about the nature of the heroes is that they serve the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages.

 

When the wheel has need of a Dragon implement, it uses the Dragon implement. When it doesn't, it doesn't. Rand's like a specialist, called upon only in very specific circumstances. We know this in any case simply from what we've seen, and what Hawkwing does not exclude this from being a function of that aspect of the Wheel.

 

I mean would you use call in a nuero-surgeon to stich up a cut? No, you use a GP. It doesn't mean both arn't doctors.

 

As for the Horn question... it was questioning whether anything specifically links this incarnation of the dragon in the prophecies to the sounding or the use of the horn in this specific age at this specific time. It's answer is irrelevant. Also, its answer is from an Aes sedai, who misinterpret the prophecies all the time. If asked wether there was anything linking the Dragon to the Aiel, the answer would have also been no... and it would have been wrong.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If you will remember also, that while Moiraine was doing all her research on various topics... whe specifficaly asked if there was anything anywhere that linked the horn to the Dragon Reborn.... the reply was NO.... just that the horn had to be present at the last battle. That sould be sufficient for the whole "is the dragon linked to the horn" debate.

 

Because, of course, Vandene and Adeleas are omniscient, so if they can't recall a link, there must not be one.

 

Please.

[Osangar1282083176]

while there is no evidence of a link between the horn and the dragon, artur hawkwing did recognize rand as LT and made a statement to the effect that they had fought togethor many times. while this is not proof of a link detween the dragon and the horn it is certainly indicative of some kind of association.

 

[/b]

[cannon]

All we really know is that there is a special pool of souls who periodically do get spun out to accomplish heroic tasks. That pool numbers approximately 100 as of now.

What?!? Where did you get that number from?

[Luckers]

The number of the heroes that answer the horn.

[cannon]

The number of the heroes that answer the horn.

From the Great Hunt? I don't remember them actually counting/estimating them. Unfortunately, I'm at work and can't check the books.

 

Although, it does make me think of an interesting question. How many of those heroes have been spun out since the Horn was blown? We know Gaidal Cain and Birgitte aren't there anymore, although for different reasons.

 

I wonder how many heroes will still be around for Tarmon Gaidon?

[Guest Majsju]

I wonder how many heroes will still be around for Tarmon Gaidon?

 

Well, since it's apparently necessary to have the Horn around during TG, probably most of the heroes are not spun out. Seems like it would be quite a let-down if Mat puffed the Horn in the middle of a battle, and ten heroes appeared.

[cannon]

Seems like it would be quite a let-down if Mat puffed the Horn in the middle of a battle, and ten heroes appeared.

 

But what a twist! :)

 

Of course, out of the dozen or so named Hunters, two of them are gone. I wonder if that's just coincidence, or speaks to a larger average. Probably just coincidence, but you never know.

[algspkr]

They numbered little more than 100. We are down two, and possibly down 2 more or will be. Other than Elayne's kids I don't see anymore getting spun out before the end.

 

On a side note does anyone think Olver might be a hero, not that it is important to the story.

[Luckers]

Nah i dont see Olver being a hero. He aint Gaidal the the chance of two super ugly male heroes seems... unlikely.

 

Yeah, its a little over a hundred. Mat even comments on it.

[DemandredFO]

For all we know there could be a link between the Dragon and the Horn or an association because, correct if I am wrong, I well maybe, but weren't the Prophecies of the Dragon made 3000 years ago. The has been the breaking, the Trolloc Wars and the war of the Hundred Years where lots of stuff was lost and one of those things may have been a link between the Dragon and the Horn.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't think the actual number of Heroes will make much difference, their power doesn't seem to spring from superior numbers.

[algspkr]

I don't think the actual number of Heroes will make much difference, their power doesn't seem to spring from superior numbers.

Their power doesn't spring from numbers, but if their numbers are too few I do not think they can exert enough power to make a differance in the fight.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Their power doesn't spring from numbers, but if their numbers are too few I do not think they can exert enough power to make a differance in the fight.

 

Um ... wouldn't that mean their power is based on numbers?

[algspkr]

Their power doesn't spring from numbers, but if their numbers are too few I do not think they can exert enough power to make a differance in the fight.

 

Um ... wouldn't that mean their power is based on numbers?

Sort of. They cannot be defeated, but I believe they can be ignored by a large enough opponent. The more numbers they have the more difficult they are to ignore

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sort of. They cannot be defeated, but I believe they can be ignored by a large enough opponent. The more numbers they have the more difficult they are to ignore

 

Then ... if their power increases when they have more numbers ...

 

See where I'm going with this?

[Guest Majsju]

The fewer of them there are, the easier it obviously gets to deal with them in other ways. Simply go around them, and just leave a small force to keep them occupied long enough. If you have a channeler, drop a few hundred kilos of rocks on them. They may not die, but it shold take them some time to dig themselves out, and by that point, the battle is probably already over.

 

So numbers doesn't effect their power, but their efficiency.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I guess it depends on your definition of "power". Mine is "the ability to make things happen". Given that definition, if being a smaller group allows people to evade them, then it has reduced their ability to make things happen, ie, their power.

 

If dropping a few hundred kilos of rocks on them doesn't kill them, how will it slow them? The reason rocks in the head kill you is that matter cannot share space. The reason that having a rock in your way slows you down is the same. So, if the rocks wouldn't kill them, why would they slow them down? My view of the "heroes" has always been very metaphysical. They aren't subject to real physical rules, or a hundred of them couldn't have driven the Seanchan into the sea, even with a legion of Whitecloaks for backup. That is why I don't think their power will be affected by a few missing faces. Their power seems to be outside and unaffected by the physical laws of Randland. At Falme, channeling didn't kill them, or even touch them. (This was later confirmed by Birgitte, in The Shadow Risin, chapter 52.) The only thing described as slowing or holding them back was Rand faltering in his personal battle with Ba'alzamon, because they were nominally following Rand at the time. So the rules that enable or restrict the heroes are not the laws of physics that hamper real troop movement/firepower/ability, but apparently the resolve and/or skill of the one they are following.