What actually is the Horn of Valere?

[Mat alKaff]

I don't know if this topic has been discussed before

because I have not read every single discussion in this forum but this one keeps bugging me... :?

 

What actually is the Horn of Valere :?: How was it created :?: Is it a ter'angreal created by Aes Sedai :?:

If it is, then how does it call back 'Heroes'-who are dead people-back from the grave :?: Even the One Power cannot ressurect the dead, so how can the Horn do it :?:

[Magicana]

The Horn of Valere is a horn, silly :P

 

Im assuming it creates a link between Tel'Aran'Rhiod and uses some sort of compulsion to insure that they do as you command (Or they wouldn't fight for the shadow)

[Dark Justice]

The most interesting about The horn, is the link to Rand/Dragon Reborn. He didnt sound it himself, but in the great hunt, it is obvious there is a link. When Rand advances, so does the heroes. When Rand is pressed, so is the Heroes. Thats what I saw though. Maybe its not that simple though.

[Luckers]

My belief is that the horn is a constructed artifact that taps into a natural function of the wheel. Specifically the nature of what we see occur when it is blown makes me believe that it blurs the line between the waking world and tel'aran'rhiod. The mist, the image of Rand and ba'alzammon fighting, the effect of that on the success of the heroes all sounds like a more maleable reality then that which naturally exists... in effect it sounds like the world of dreams... in which, curiously, the heroes can exist.

 

The most interesting about The horn, is the link to Rand/Dragon Reborn. He didnt sound it himself, but in the great hunt, it is obvious there is a link. When Rand advances, so does the heroes. When Rand is pressed, so is the Heroes. Thats what I saw though. Maybe its not that simple though.

 

This isn't nessasarily universal. the effect of Rand's ta'verenism, for instance, may have had a hold on the horn. The specific need of that particular moment, the forces present between the weave of the wheel, Rand's ta'verenism and the influence of the Dark One could easily have influence the effect of the horn in that particular instance. The fact that darkfriends can blow the horn implies to me that there is no specific requirement for a link with the Dragon in the function of the horn.

[Dark Justice]

that was not what i was trying to say either.

There is no need for the Dragon Reborne for the horn to fuction. But it seems he has a strong effect on it.

But that could be, as you say, an effect of him ta`veren.

But if a darkfriend used the horn, Rand being near, would have quite an interesting effect i belive.

[Luckers]

Possibly so, but given the nature of ta'verenism that need'nt be an effect in his favour. Concider that as many people die from Rand's ta'verenism as gain from it. It could simply amplify the power of the darkfriends, if it came into play.

[Dark Justice]

But Rands Ta`verenism leads to his dvantage most of the time. Small things like people falling out of the window etc is quite 50-50 gain-no gain

But it sems to me a Ta`veren attracts what he needs, to gain advantage in big situations. Like in a battle.

[Luckers]

Not so. As Min says, the good balances the bad, all that happens is that around Rand it is more pronounced.

[Mat alKaff]

If it is as you say Luckers, It blurs the line between Tel'aran'rhiod and the wakin world,

How long will the Heroes remain in the waking world?

Does the sounder of the horn control that?

 

And if I remeber well, Artur Hawkwing was one the heroes...will his being Ta'veren affect the Pattern

as he did when he was alive?

What will happen to Birgitte when the Horn is sounded again now that she is part of the waking world? Will she be affected in any way?

[Mat alKaff]

I do hope somone have the answers to my questions...

don't just view them...no offence...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Ta'verenism seems to be a temporary state. Kinda like a suit of clothes. You may wear it one day but not the next. The Wheel temporarily clothes some existing person in a suit of ta'verenism for as long as needed and then removes it afterward. So, it's unlikely an undead Hawkwing would still be Ta'veren.

 

My guess is that Birgitte, being Birgitte, would be aware if the Horn was sounded, but due to her living state and physical place in the material world she might be unable to respond. I doubt that the sounding of the Horn would restore any of the special attributes of their undead state to any Hero currently alive at the time of the Sounding.

 

As to the topic's question: Nobody knows. Nobody knows who made it. Nobody knows when it was made. All that is known is that it exists and has certain powers.

[algspkr]

My belief as to what happened at Falme with Rand and the heros is that the only time the heros of the horn do not follow the Dragon is when he is not present at the sounding. If the Dragon is dead and bound to the wheel he will follow the horn sounder, and the others will follow him. If the Dragon is alive and present where the horn is sounded they will follow him, or his banner at least. And if he is alive and not at the sounding they will simply follow the sounder.

[Guest Majsju]

What is known about it's origin is that it was made before AOL. And pretty much nothing else.

 

As for a few other thigs mentioned in this thread.

 

The connection between Rand and the Heroes at Falme was most likely a unique incident concidering that it was a crucial point in the Wheel, it was the point where the Wheel forced rand to declare himself the Dragon reborn. The Wheel did after all display his battle with Ishy all over the place just for that very reason.

 

Hawkwing will most likely not be ta'veren when he's called by the horn. People are only made ta'veren for a set period of time, and death should put an end to that even if the things they were supposed to achieved wasn't reached.

 

And Rand is not bound to the horn.

[Luckers]

In your opinion. Frankly i've never seen anything in the argument against him being bound.

[Guest Majsju]

I see far more speaking against him being bound than speaking for. I've never seen anything even hinting at him being bound other than the view of Rand as a superman who must be all cool things ever mentioned in the books, like rand channeling TP and such things.

[Bob T Dwarf]

What is perfectly, crystal clear is that The Dragon is bound to the Horn. ( or, possibly, The Horn is bound to The Dragon... the binding could actually go the other direction. For convenience sake, let's just say that The Dragon and The Horn are bound to each other in some fashion. )

 

LTT was one incarnation of the Dragon. Rand is another. They are two distinct personalities who share the same soul.

 

So, when Rand eventually dies, his soul ( being the soul of The Dragon ) will remain bound to the Horn in the same fashion that it always has been.

 

Unless, of course, the DO wins and unmakes the universe. Then all bets are off.

[Guest Majsju]

What is perfectly, crystal clear is that The Dragon is bound to the Horn

 

Care to provide a quote that says flat out that the Dragon is bound to the horn?

 

Oh wait, there is no such thing.

There is more evidence for Rand displaying the Saa in KOD, than the Dragon being bound to the horn. And considering how much truth there was to the Saa-speculation...

[algspkr]

I think it was Briggette who said that the heros of the horn are bound to the wheel, and are spun out again and again to serve the wheel's purposes, personally I think that points to the Dragon being bound to the wheel.

[Luckers]

I see far more speaking against him being bound than speaking for. I've never seen anything even hinting at him being bound other than the view of Rand as a superman who must be all cool things ever mentioned in the books' date=' like rand channeling TP and such things.[/quote']

 

His soul is a soul of key importance that is born when the the wheel has need of it. Sounds like the heroes to me. Remember too that the horn is not the reason for those souls existence. We see through Birgitte that they are bound in tel'aran'rhiod in order to be born again in times of need, not to serve the horn. The horn seems to be an artificial construct that taps into that aspect of the pattern.

 

But the proof... the absolute proof, to my mind, is Hawkwing's comment.

 

"It takes more then bravery to bind a man to the horn." Artur Hawkwing's voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands.

 

"Or a woman." Birgitte said sharply.

 

"Or a woman," Hawkwing agreed. "Only a few are bound to the wheel, to be spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh.

 

The siginificant points.

 

1. The link between the Heroes of the Horn being souls the wheel has bound and spin out when it has need.

 

2. That Lews Therin should be able to explain this, if he could remember when he wore his flesh. This is significant on three levels.

 

-This is knowledge Lews Therin has when he is not coporeal... i.e. it is knowledge of his soul, accessable only when he hasn't been born in much the same way Birgitte later states that she had no knowledge that she was a bound soul when she was in HER flesh.

 

-It implies that Hawkwing knows and has access to LTT when he is not in his flesh. The dead do not live in tel'aran'rhiod, unless they are bound souls, therefore Hawkwing would have no access to Rand.

 

-Hawkwing specifically addresses LTT in explaining this in a manner that is inclusive. The manner of his speech added to the specifier that LTT knows this when he is NOT in his flesh implies that LTT should not just know of it because of his education in the Age of Legends but because it is inherent to his nature... he can explain it, because he IS it.

 

And in opposition you offer what... the semantic argument that Rand can't be a bound soul because that would make him too cool?

 

I'm sorry, i argue against the over-glorification of Rand also... its part of the reason i am strongly against the idea of a Devine Power and other such nonsense, but your blind dismissal is a symptom of a weak argument... don't get me wrong, i dont mind that you disagree, but your categorical statements, aggressive dismissals and lack of backing is doing you a disservice.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yup. Luckers nailed it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, if that aint crystal clear, then nothing in these books is.

 

The Dragon and The Horn are bound together in some fashion. Rand is one incarnation of The Dragon's soul.

 

Ergo: Rand and The Horn are bound together.

[Luckers]

Actually that i disagree with. I do not think the Horn and the Dragon are in anyway bound. Hawkwing's desire for the banner is something to do with mood, prevecated by the image of the bannerman... something we no longer understand, but in ancient times was massive.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Um .... isn't the Dragon sort of the soul name of Rand/Lews Therin? If he is the soul of a hero bound to the wheel, then the Dragon is a soul bound to the Wheel, and therefore related to the Horn. Not bound to the Horn specifically, but bound to the mechanism which the Horn taps into.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Every soul is bound to The Wheel. All souls get reborn from time-to-time.

 

If The Dragon is merely bound to The Wheel, it aint no big deal. But, for some reason, The Dragon is a big deal. There's only one soul in all of time who has been, is, and will forever be, The Dragon.

 

That soul, when not living, hangs out in TaR, swapping lies with The Heroes of The Horn. Thus, if he isn't a member of that club, he's at least an honored guest.

 

We know from Birgitte, that she's experienced many lives and served The Wheel in many ways, wearing many different names. Yet, while waiting in TaR, she thinks of herself and is always known to the others as Birgitte Silverbow. Hawkwing is always Hawkwing. And, The Dragon is apparently always Lews Therin Telemon.

 

So, the soul who was LTT is known to all of the Heroes, hangs out with the Heroes, fights both with and against the Heroes, and intimately knows the workings of The Horn just as they do.

 

If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck, I say, "It's probably a duck."

[Luckers]

Ok, i was addressing the common reaction of Hawkwings feeling that the Dragon banner is needed... as misconception to my mind. Obviously i was wrong about what you were saying.

 

I'm not sure i agree with the rest of what you say... it strikes me as somewhat sappy and cliche for RJ's work, but meh.