Is the Dark One Really "Lord of the Grave"?

[Pygmalion79]

What evidence do we have that the Dark One is in fact the “Lord of the Grave”? That is, what evidence do we have that he has access to the souls of all the dead? We know that he is able to access the souls of Darkfriends, at least during a small window after death. He has done so with the Forsaken, at least. And it is possible that he did so with the Darkfriend merchant in The Eye of the World, whose name I’ve forgotten. But what evidence do we have that he can do the same to someone who has not sworn over to the Dark One? Ishamael shows Rand an image of Kari al’Thor, but we have been given no reason to think that this represented reality, since if I remember correctly it occurred in a dream and could therefore easily be an illusion created by Ishamael. Is there any other indication that anyone need fear the Dark One after death who was not a Darkfriend?

[FarShainMael]

Hinderstap, possibly?

[WhiskyJack]

Because LTT believed so . Even though RJ likes to put world in this back and white theme, every human has got bit of Dark in them.

Kari Al'Thor scene didn't happen in dream but she might have been an illusion. Seeing that Moridin dint know Rand was Dragon till the very end, hard to imagine that he would know his mother (unless he had taken lot of mothers).

[WhiskyJack]

Hinderstap, possibly?

 

 

But DO cannot resurrect you in same body (once it's destroyed or badly damaged)?

[Luckers]

It's clear there are limitations on the Dark One--he has powers, but he's not the ruler of death. So a mix.

[Zentari]

What evidence do we have that the Dark One is in fact the “Lord of the Grave”? That is, what evidence do we have that he has access to the souls of all the dead? We know that he is able to access the souls of Darkfriends, at least during a small window after death. He has done so with the Forsaken, at least. And it is possible that he did so with the Darkfriend merchant in The Eye of the World, whose name I’ve forgotten. But what evidence do we have that he can do the same to someone who has not sworn over to the Dark One? Ishamael shows Rand an image of Kari al’Thor, but we have been given no reason to think that this represented reality, since if I remember correctly it occurred in a dream and could therefore easily be an illusion created by Ishamael. Is there any other indication that anyone need fear the Dark One after death who was not a Darkfriend?

Well, he is clearly able to grab people's soul so yeah, that pretty much makes him the only candidate besides the Creator for the title.As for those that are not sworn over, it's up in the air but personally ; if he is able to do so that means that every character that has ever died (apart from being balefired in the face) is now in his clutches.Kinda paints a grim picture.

[Pygmalion79]

Well, he is clearly able to grab people's soul so yeah, that pretty much makes him the only candidate besides the Creator for the title.As for those that are not sworn over, it's up in the air but personally ; if he is able to do so that means that every character that has ever died (apart from being balefired in the face) is now in his clutches.Kinda paints a grim picture.

This "grim picture" is part of why I ask, because unless the Dark One has limits to his ability to grab people as they die -- like he can only grab one person at a time, and the amount of time it takes him to grab a soul is non-zero -- then it seems that the Dark One will certainly grab every soul as it dies and torment it until the soul is reborn. The WOT then essentially functions with a system of universal damnation with short and temporary reprieves. In that case, not remembering your past lives would be a blessing, though a small one since the large majority of your existence will be hellish.

 

But consider: we know of one character who does remember his past life, and the Dark One had more motive to grab his soul than anyone else's. Perhaps the Dark One did grab the Dragon soul and perhaps he did torment him for 3000 years and perhaps Rand now remembers his life as LTT but not the period of torment (he has a Mat-style hole in his memory created by the Creator or Pattern). Or perhaps the Creator shielded the Dragon soul specially from being grabbed. And we don't know from Rand anything for sure, one way or another, about what he does or doesn't remember. But the total picture painted by ToM--seeing how much of the "Dark One's touch" was actually Rand's touch, for example--is making me doubt that the true extent of the Dark One's power is as great as many fear, and this is just one more area where I think that Darkfriends are completely duped--no one would say, "Yes, in exchange for serving you, you can later have my soul and torment it in flame and darkness."

[WhiskyJack]

Well, he is clearly able to grab people's soul so yeah, that pretty much makes him the only candidate besides the Creator for the title.As for those that are not sworn over, it's up in the air but personally ; if he is able to do so that means that every character that has ever died (apart from being balefired in the face) is now in his clutches.Kinda paints a grim picture.

This "grim picture" is part of why I ask, because unless the Dark One has limits to his ability to grab people as they die -- like he can only grab one person at a time, and the amount of time it takes him to grab a soul is non-zero -- then it seems that the Dark One will certainly grab every soul as it dies and torment it until the soul is reborn. The WOT then essentially functions with a system of universal damnation with short and temporary reprieves. In that case, not remembering your past lives would be a blessing, though a small one since the large majority of your existence will be hellish.

 

 

That might give DO some pleasure but won't do good in long run. Torturing people after they are dead won't change their deeds.

 

But consider: we know of one character who does remember his past life, and the Dark One had more motive to grab his soul than anyone else's. Perhaps the Dark One did grab the Dragon soul and perhaps he did torment him for 3000 years and perhaps Rand now remembers his life as LTT but not the period of torment (he has a Mat-style hole in his memory created by the Creator or Pattern). Or perhaps the Creator shielded the Dragon soul specially from being grabbed. And we don't know from Rand anything for sure, one way or another, about what he does or doesn't remember. But the total picture painted by ToM--seeing how much of the "Dark One's touch" was actually Rand's touch, for example--is making me doubt that the true extent of the Dark One's power is as great as many fear, and this is just one more area where I think that Darkfriends are completely duped--no one would say, "Yes, in exchange for serving you, you can later have my soul and torment it in flame and darkness."

 

Extending on the previous comment, I don't think he can grab the soul of Dragon or any Hero of Horn. That they don't go back to usual place (Wheel?) but end up in TAR is wheel's safeguard against any such possibility. Hence his attempt to corrupt Dragon instead of trying to kill him.

[Suttree]

Would he be able to grab the soul of a non-DF/Chosen? You would think whatever oaths they swear would create some sort of link that makes this possible. As for the Kari thing the DO had no idea who the DR was at the time of her death. Wouldn't think it's possible for that scene to be real unless she had some sort of past we don't know about.

[mb]

The ghosts in the last several books could be an indicator that the Dark One has power over the dead of either side.

 

 

I recall somewhere telling that the Dark One cannot grab a Hero's soul. Do not remember where.

 

These methods (of death) prevent the Dark One from resurrecting::

-for sure balefire

-possibly Mashadar

-maybe inside a Gateway

[Marrow]

Also, remember the prison limit his power: He might be able to torment his enemy's like the dragon eternally when he is free, however, not while he is imprisoned. Another reason why Rand must win :D

[herid]

this is an interesting topic. First, RJ actually commented on this.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour Pasadena, CA 31 October 2005 - Ursula reporting

 

A man asked if the Dark One can resurrect anyone after death?

RJ answered that, yes, the Dark One can resurrect any soul, but probably doesn't want to bring back someone who hates him.

 

However, It's clear that there are some constraints on what the DO can do with the souls he snatches even if it's not clear exactly what they are. As was mentioned, if he could grab every soul including that of the Dragon and of all the Heroes of the Horn and hold them indefinitely, I'm sure he would have.

Possibly, he can only torment the souls of those sworn to him and the others he can only snatch and hold for a time and then he either has to resurrect them or let go of them.

[Awakened]

And not resurrect them within his power otherwise he could simply hold all of the souls of the loved ones who stand against him who have died hostage, possibly threatening to feed them all to dragkhar.

[Pygmalion79]

So....reading everyone's responses, I feel that my reasoning was flawed, because I didn't know of that Robert Jordan quote about the Dark One's power to resurrect anyone and because I didn't think about how heroes may be under other rules. It still seems hard to say whether the Dark One can influence the soul of anyone he nabs after death, but we do apparently know that he can nab them, so that is interesting.

[Barid Bel Medar]

What must also be remembered is that the DO only had one hand "through the window" so to speak in the AoL. Even when the seals are broken, the DO isnt completely free. The bore is still too small.

 

So with that in mind, think of what the DO has done. He has ressurected Forsaken while he only has a bit of room to access the pattern, and also the seals were still in tact, or at least most of them.

 

Imagine what could happen if the DO was fully loosed.

 

He is definitely the Lord of the Grave.

[FarShainMael]

The ghosts in the last several books could be an indicator that the Dark One has power over the dead of either side.

 

 

I recall somewhere telling that the Dark One cannot grab a Hero's soul. Do not remember where.

 

These methods (of death) prevent the Dark One from resurrecting::

-for sure balefire

-possibly Mashadar

-maybe inside a Gateway

 

Possibly also self-sacrifice - Ingtar, and Verin?

 

May all souls who serve the Light shelter in the Creator's hand, in the sure and certain hope of salvation and rebirth. (See KoD2, etc.)

[mb]

Possibly also self-sacrifice - Ingtar, and Verin?

 

May all souls who serve the Light shelter in the Creator's hand, in the sure and certain hope of salvation and rebirth. (See KoD2, etc.)

Those two the Dark One might more likely be unwillingly than unable; unless they have become Heroes.