Who will kill Rand?

[Southpaw89]

I'm betting a good majority of fans on here believe that Rand will die at some point in AMoL. That being said, how do you all think he's gonna die and by who? I honestly can't decide if it'll be by Moridin or Demandred. Demandred seems the most ambitious to do the job but I almost feel like it's gonna be ended by Moridin

[algspkr]

If Rand dies it will not be because of a Forsaken; if he is killed it will be a conscious sacrifice to defeat the Dark One.

[sandoz12]

Bela as the creator will trample him to death for the good of the world.

[WhiskyJack]

Sanderson...

[Zhipp]

Padan Fain! One last glorious act as a mere mortal before he ascends(or descends, heh) to destroy the dark one, and take his place forever.

[Terez]

It's got to be one of the Mordred parallels. I still like the idea of Gawyn, but Moiraine is my number one now:

 

1. Moiraine

2. Gawyn

3. Demandred

4. Moridin

5. Fain

 

I don't know of any other Mordred parallels other than Galad, and we know he won't fight Rand because RJ said so.

[sandoz12]

And what role will Alivia play in 'helping him die'. Anyone got some good ideas?

[Southpaw89]

haha what makes you think Moiraine will kill Rand Terez?

[Terez]

haha what makes you think Moiraine will kill Rand Terez?

TEOTW ch. 13, among other things. And she's a great Mordred parallel, being hidden as a Morgan le Fay parallel as she is. ;)

[sandoz12]

haha what makes you think Moiraine will kill Rand Terez?

TEOTW ch. 13, among other things. And she's a great Mordred parallel, being hidden as a Morgan le Fay parallel as she is. ;)

Well, you could well be right about Moiraine. That line always did feel like foreshadowing. To tie in with my earlier question I wonder what Alivia's role will be then. If Nynaeve and Moiraine both use Callandor with Rand then Alivia is on the sidelines - this bit is where I get a little puzzled.

[Terez]

haha what makes you think Moiraine will kill Rand Terez?

TEOTW ch. 13, among other things. And she's a great Mordred parallel, being hidden as a Morgan le Fay parallel as she is. ;)

Well, you could well be right about Moiraine. That line always did feel like foreshadowing. To tie in with my earlier question I wonder what Alivia's role will be then. If Nynaeve and Moiraine both use Callandor with Rand then Alivia is on the sidelines - this bit is where I get a little puzzled.

I try not to stress too much about Alivia's role because I don't think it's going to be anything like what people think. I think that a lot of Lightfriends will contribute to Rand's death, and while Alivia will surely help in some way, it doesn't have to be central. It would be very much like RJ to make it something trivial.

 

I do like the idea of Alivia killing Rand because of the merge with Moridin, or perhaps killing Moridin after Rand's body dies and Rand gets stuck in Moridin's body. The second fits better, because Min's viewing really doesn't seem to suggest Alivia killing Rand directly. But if Moridin's body dies and Moridin somehow manages to take control of Rand's body (with Rand still in it), then he would definitely need some help dying, and that's the only scenario in which I can see Alivia killing him directly (or something similar). But then it would be weird for Min's viewing to say that one dies, and the other doesn't. It seems a weird distinction in prophecy if they die one right after the other. Surely the space won't be too long, but minutes or even hours doesn't seem like enough. Three days would be about right.

 

But it's just anticlimactic to have a relatively unimportant side character kill Rand when you've got Moiraine promising it way back in book one (not to mention we know he'll fail without her and that she's going to save the world). It may be that Moiraine will be the only one to recognize that Rand is merging with Moridin. How could she recognize that? I'm not sure. But Rand just isn't Rand any more, and I think Lews Therin only confuses the issue, both for Rand's friends and for the reader. He seems to have become holy on Dragonmount, like the avatar of the Creator or something, but I think he's just more dangerous than ever, and I think that despite his 400 years of wisdom he has no clue. Maybe the dream in the epilogue will clue him in, but it's not looking likely is it?

[sandoz12]

haha what makes you think Moiraine will kill Rand Terez?

TEOTW ch. 13, among other things. And she's a great Mordred parallel, being hidden as a Morgan le Fay parallel as she is. ;)

Well, you could well be right about Moiraine. That line always did feel like foreshadowing. To tie in with my earlier question I wonder what Alivia's role will be then. If Nynaeve and Moiraine both use Callandor with Rand then Alivia is on the sidelines - this bit is where I get a little puzzled.

I try not to stress too much about Alivia's role because I don't think it's going to be anything like what people think. I think that a lot of Lightfriends will contribute to Rand's death, and while Alivia will surely help in some way, it doesn't have to be central. It would be very much like RJ to make it something trivial.

 

I do like the idea of Alivia killing Rand because of the merge with Moridin, or perhaps killing Moridin after Rand's body dies and Rand gets stuck in Moridin's body. The second fits better, because Min's viewing really doesn't seem to suggest Alivia killing Rand directly. But if Moridin's body dies and Moridin somehow manages to take control of Rand's body (with Rand still in it), then he would definitely need some help dying, and that's the only scenario in which I can see Alivia killing him directly (or something similar). But then it would be weird for Min's viewing to say that one dies, and the other doesn't. It seems a weird distinction in prophecy if they die one right after the other. Surely the space won't be too long, but minutes or even hours doesn't seem like enough. Three days would be about right.

 

But it's just anticlimactic to have a relatively unimportant side character kill Rand when you've got Moiraine promising it way back in book one (not to mention we know he'll fail without her and that she's going to save the world). It may be that Moiraine will be the only one to recognize that Rand is merging with Moridin. How could she recognize that? I'm not sure. But Rand just isn't Rand any more, and I think Lews Therin only confuses the issue, both for Rand's friends and for the reader. He seems to have become holy on Dragonmount, like the avatar of the Creator or something, but I think he's just more dangerous than ever, and I think that despite his 400 years of wisdom he has no clue. Maybe the dream in the epilogue will clue him in, but it's not looking likely is it?

All true. But I think his dangerousness is what is needed. I think something along the lines of destruction bringing creation, death bring life etc. The whole cyclical nature of things. For the forces of light to triumph they need someone as dangerous as the dark one himself and this where the Herid Fel [heh our glossary is allowing me to quickly check spellings - already proving handy] quote comes in. I see Rand saving the world not by coming in as a knight in shining armour but a force as dangerous as the dark one himself who performs the required destruction before getting killed by probably Moiraine to avoid another breaking of the world. I am probably off in fantasy land here but then this is the fantasy genre.

[Terez]

Well, the concept is alright - there is no salvation without destruction - but I don't think he will do anything important while merged with Moridin. He has to die before he can save the day. There has to be a reason for his 'sacrifice', and dying to save people from their sins would be a little bit cliché, so I think this is what RJ came up with. Hence the foreshadowing way back in TEOTW 13 and TEOTW 24.

[sandoz12]

Well, the concept is alright - there is no salvation without destruction - but I don't think he will do anything important while merged with Moridin. He has to die before he can save the day. There has to be a reason for his 'sacrifice', and dying to save people from their sins would be a little bit cliché, so I think this is what RJ came up with. Hence the foreshadowing way back in TEOTW 13 and TEOTW 24.

Yep, I would agree with that. And definitely dying to save people for their sins would be far too cliché. In fact his death really needs to occur early on (as you have been suggesting) as otherwise there are simply too many Jesus/Harry Potter similarities. This also ties in well with your Rand=Broken Wolf theory. As if he dies early on it will bring the 'fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself' which won't happen if he dies after defeating the dark one.

 

The one thing though is if Rand=Broken Wolf and Rand dies via Moiraine then how does this tie in with the 'he shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers'. Actually don't bother answering that as I realise by being bound with Moridin he has already fallen and been consumed by them and thus Moiraine killing him would free the world of this. Though of course he could still be killed directly by Demandred/Moridin/Graendal and this would also fulfill this prophecy.

[Southpaw89]

But it's just anticlimactic to have a relatively unimportant side character kill Rand when you've got Moiraine promising it way back in book one (not to mention we know he'll fail without her and that she's going to save the world). It may be that Moiraine will be the only one to recognize that Rand is merging with Moridin. How could she recognize that? I'm not sure

 

Some type of hint from the Finns possibly?

[FarShainMael]

haha what makes you think Moiraine will kill Rand Terez?

TEOTW ch. 13, among other things. And she's a great Mordred parallel, being hidden as a Morgan le Fay parallel as she is. ;)

Well, you could well be right about Moiraine. That line always did feel like foreshadowing.

 

Moiraine changed her mind later:

 

What do you think to gain, for yourself or anyone else, by dying?... If the Lord of the Grave has gained as much freedom to touch the Pattern as I fear, he can reach you dead more easily than alive, now. Dead, you can help no-one, not the people who have helped you, not your friends and family back in the Two Rivers. The Shadow is falling over the world, and none of you can stop it dead.

[UncleButcher1980]

It's got to be one of the Mordred parallels. I still like the idea of Gawyn, but Moiraine is my number one now:

 

1. Moiraine

2. Gawyn

3. Demandred

4. Moridin

5. Fain

 

I don't know of any other Mordred parallels other than Galad, and we know he won't fight Rand because RJ said so.

 

How do think it will come to pass should Moiraine be the one to kill him? I had a quick check of your FAQ but I was too lazy to look properly and see if there was a theory there.

 

Edit: Wow, did I really just type 'come to pass'? What a twat I am

[Elysium]

It's got to be one of the Mordred parallels. I still like the idea of Gawyn, but Moiraine is my number one now:

 

1. Moiraine

2. Gawyn

3. Demandred

4. Moridin

5. Fain

 

I don't know of any other Mordred parallels other than Galad, and we know he won't fight Rand because RJ said so.

 

Quick question, maybe obvious to you, but what about Slayer? Any reason you don't see him as a Mordred parallel? At the least, he has the familial pedigree of sorts, is related to TAR (which seems to be an end-time favorite topic around here), and already said he wished he could kill his nephew (in Far Madding).

 

Thoughts?

[Terez]

haha what makes you think Moiraine will kill Rand Terez?

TEOTW ch. 13, among other things. And she's a great Mordred parallel, being hidden as a Morgan le Fay parallel as she is. ;)

Well, you could well be right about Moiraine. That line always did feel like foreshadowing.

Moiraine changed her mind later:

 

What do you think to gain, for yourself or anyone else, by dying?... If the Lord of the Grave has gained as much freedom to touch the Pattern as I fear, he can reach you dead more easily than alive, now. Dead, you can help no-one, not the people who have helped you, not your friends and family back in the Two Rivers. The Shadow is falling over the world, and none of you can stop it dead.

That's why she has to balefire him. Besides, she didn't change her mind at all; Rand was not in any danger of going over to the Shadow at that point, so she had no reason to want him to die. The problem with this argument before TOM - I was struggling with writing the theory for weeks before TOM came out, and this detail bugged me the most - was that the strongest balefire she could manage before she went to 'Finnland would only remove 'a few seconds' from the Pattern, which is not quite enough to keep the Dark One from grabbing Rand's soul. I tried arguing at one point that she had managed to get the angreal because she was clawing it away from Lanfear as they went through the doorway, but some people insisted Lanfear had gotten it because of her scene at the Cleansing with Alivia.

 

It's got to be one of the Mordred parallels. I still like the idea of Gawyn, but Moiraine is my number one now:

 

1. Moiraine

2. Gawyn

3. Demandred

4. Moridin

5. Fain

 

I don't know of any other Mordred parallels other than Galad, and we know he won't fight Rand because RJ said so.

 

How do think it will come to pass should Moiraine be the one to kill him?

Not sure. I have brainstormed a few scenarios, but aside from the balefire thing I can't think of anything that is supported by the books. It could be unpredictable. She'll have to be convinced that she's not using the Power as a weapon, though. Maybe she asked the Eelfinn to be free of the Oaths? It would make sense, especially if one of her questions for the Aelfinn led to them telling her that she would have to kill Rand one day. RJ said those questions were a 'big time RAFO', and that's the only thing I can think of that we have clues for, really. But in that case she'd have had to use her third request for the ageless face, unless Mat was just imagining things. Even asking to be released from that one Oath would have changed that much; RJ said you have to take three to get the face. How would she have even known at that point to ask for it? Maybe she puzzled it out and kept it to herself; I can't recall her saying that it came from years of working with the Power (as most Aes Sedai believed before Elayne figured it out). It's always been hard to believe that none of them puzzled it out, but it seems Siuan didn't.

 

It's got to be one of the Mordred parallels. I still like the idea of Gawyn, but Moiraine is my number one now:

 

1. Moiraine

2. Gawyn

3. Demandred

4. Moridin

5. Fain

 

I don't know of any other Mordred parallels other than Galad, and we know he won't fight Rand because RJ said so.

 

Quick question, maybe obvious to you, but what about Slayer? Any reason you don't see him as a Mordred parallel?

It's mainly the name thing. Of all those I mentioned, they all have either 'Mor' or 'dred' or both. Like so:

 

1. MOiRaine DamoDRED

2. MORgase + Taringail DamoDRED = Gawyn (this goes for Elayne too, but I don't think she'll kill Rand). Gawyn has other ties to Mordred in his character details.

3. DemanDRED

4. MORidin (also Moerad, Hawkwing's advisor)

5. MORDeth (which is more similar to Mordred than the previous because of the extra letter)

 

It just so happens that all of them either want to kill Rand, or in Gawyn's case did (and he might still go that route via Egwene/Guinevere), or in Moiraine's case, vowed by the First Oath that she would kill him before allowing him to go over to the Shadow.

 

Slayer will no doubt try to kill Rand - for the final death in Tel'aran'rhiod, after Rand's actual death - but I don't think he will succeed. Only one of the above can do that, though Alivia will help somehow. I think that Perrin will have to fight Slayer again after Rand's death, but I figure he'll encounter him again before then as he checks on the dreamspike at the Black Tower. Perrin might need help from Egwene and others there if Cyndane and Moghedien are involved (which seems likely; Moridin will not leave it protected only by Slayer now that Perrin has shown his strength). But I don't think Perrin will kill him until after Rand dies, if Perrin kills him at all; there has to be some sort of threat while Nynaeve is trying to resurrect Rand or it will be boring, and Slayer seems to have been made for that purpose. And Moridin has mindtrapped the two most talented dreamwalkers of the Forsaken aside from himself.

[Sid]

Perhaps Alivia will link with Moiraine so her balefire will affect more than a few seconds of the pattern. With the strong angreal Moiraine might be able to do it herself now anyway, but if she loses it... It would fulfill the viewing of 'helping him die' rather than killing him.

 

Of course how they would ever end up in a situation where Moiraine and Alivia would link at all, and especially at a proper time for the killing is beyond me.

[Terez]

Yeah, that's why I have a tendency to think theories like that are contrived, and that Alivia's role will be minor (to fit the minor nature of her character).

[Barid Bel Medar]

I would put Egwene on the list as well. Simply because of her Accepted Test. I know it is not anything to do with reality, but she had to kill him every time.

 

Egwene and Rand look to be going up against each other. She may find she has no choice but to kill him. She is always saying in ToM she hoped Rand did not "force her hand". Perhaps with the merging with Moridin and such, Egwene does what is needed.

 

I dont really think so, but I would not discount it.

 

It is more likely to be Moiraine, Demandred or Moridin.

 

Moiraine because she has an important role, and other such things as Terez mentioned.

 

Moridin, because they are merging and such, their threads are intertwined etc.

 

Demandred because of the emphasis put on him wanting to kill Rand so badly. I think it would be a good moment, Demandred finally thinking he has won, then BAM, Rand comes back to life.

 

 

Anyway, if it is a Light sided character like Moiraine, Gawyn or Egwene etc.. I think that Rand will ask them to kill him, knowing that he must die. I dont think he will turn to the shadow and need to be killed. That plotline is already passed in tGS, Rand, while not as "holy" as most think, is stable enough now.

[Terez]

I would put Egwene on the list as well.

If she contributes to his death, it will be via Gawyn. She's not a Mordred parallel.

 

Simply because of her Accepted Test. I know it is not anything to do with reality, but she had to kill him every time.

No, she was only asked to kill him once. But if Gawyn is involved in Rand's death, then it will be at Egwene's orders, since he is her faithful dog these days.

 

Anyway, if it is a Light sided character like Moiraine, Gawyn or Egwene etc.. I think that Rand will ask them to kill him, knowing that he must die. I dont think he will turn to the shadow and need to be killed. That plotline is already passed in tGS, Rand, while not as "holy" as most think, is stable enough now.

He's still linked with Moridin. The stability is just a ruse to lead us to believe that all is safe. The TOM epilogue was supposed to clue us in, and there were other hints dropped through the book.

 

Again, there has to be a reason for Rand to die, or it will be extremely lame.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I do agree, if it is Egwene, it will be through her hound.

 

I didnt really make my post clear. I am one who does not think Rand is as perfect as it looks like in ToM. If you read closely, specially from Min feeling him through the bond, he is still very troubled and lost, even though much more knowledgeable than any of the Thrid Agers (which really doesnt say much), he still needs a lot more to defeat the DO.

 

What I meant by him not turning to the Shadow, I meant that it wont be a repeat of tGS, where he goes all Dark Rand and someone is forced to kill him or he will go crazy. That would just be stupid after VoG. he is past that point, as he said, the shadow have made their play, and failed, it is war now.

 

I also agree that it may well be from the Moridin bond. But what I meant is that Rand wont start being evil and need to be stopped. I think it will be more akin to a poison. he realises that this metaphorical poison, aka. Moridin bond, is harmful, and tells someone to kill him to be free of the corruption.

 

 

Edit: I would much rather it be one of the Forsaken though, it would be more fitting, specially if you subscribe to the Broken Wolf theory being Rand.

 

 

Ohh, I just had a thought. (well, I remembered it anyway) I think it is possible that Gawyn could kill him still, despite having resolved his hatred. If it is to happen, I think Rand will win over the Aes Sedaiat the FoM, so they follow him and not Egwene. Then, being all angry about that, thinking that he has "bewitched" them all with his taveren power, Gawyn goes to kill him (he doesnt need much provocation) made possible by the Bloodknife ter'angreal.

 

Not on Egwene's orders, just because he thinks it would help. Egwene would not kill Rand like that.

[Pandemonium]

I'm going to go with Demandred. I think it would be ironic if Demandred ends up killing Moridin in Rand's body.