The Dark One will just be sealed

[Jimvzyl]

No dues ex machina Light Power please.

please please please :)

[Guest Asante]

To get a little bit back on topic:

 

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless

 

The Age is not special, it is merely a repeat of the Third Age. However, that hardly means that Rand's choices or some other factor besides the nature of the Age itself cannot make this time around different. The Wheel is merely repeating the pattern it has woven before, for now. But I think it is foolish to assume that RJ repeating what is stated in the books, that the Wheel is endlessly repeating Ages, to mean that nothing can ever change.

 

Free will exists in the series and the pattern is constantly being adjusted. Therefore, it is certainly possible to change or even eliminate the pattern, with Balefire or otherwise.

[Jimvzyl]

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless

 

I see no reason to believe that, just because there is nothing that makes this age any different, that the outcome cannot be different.

If the DO dies or is destroyed by Rand (somehow), the wheel will continue to turn because he exists outside the pattern, it shouldnt affect the ages too drastically. He seems to merely provide a way for the Wheel to reset itself but I'm sure severe genocidal human induced mayhem could do a similar job.

 

If the DO is just sealed the Wheel will continue to turn as it does anyway.

 

If the DO wins the pattern is destroyed. RJ's wording here seems to indicate that this is impossible as "there is nothing that makes this age and different" and "the wheel is endless". So if we discount the DO's ambition as a possibility despite this, I see no reason that the exact opposite could not happen, even considering what we take as pure truth from RJ's statements.

 

At this moment in time I see the DO as being just sealed away - but I don't discount that Rand may find a way to kill him/it (ya, i know he's part of the pattern,) , as much as I don't discount the possibility that the DO could win (Yes i know Mat was planned for outrigger novels). Its the same sort of argument in my eyes. You could argue either way, that the story may have changed at a point, or that there is purposeful misdirection, or there is a certain level of ambiguity in any statement by the author.

 

Can't wait to read and find out.

[gallows11]

Either way I hate to say it but I'm pretty sure rand is gonna die in the last book. "He came like the wind,like the wind he touched everything and like the wind he was gone." Kinda sucks but that's what makes a book good. The willingness of the author to kill off the main protagonist so that they have a more solid realism to them. As long as they aren't too willing to do it at least.

[Jimvzyl]

Either way I hate to say it but I'm pretty sure rand is gonna die in the last book. "He came like the wind,like the wind he touched everything and like the wind he was gone." Kinda sucks but that's what makes a book good. The willingness of the author to kill off the main protagonist so that they have a more solid realism to them. As long as they aren't too willing to do it at least.

 

I think he'll die as well, but I'm not sure if it will be a final death.

 

Much like Beren and Luthien in the Silmarillion. The problem is, the women he loves are far too important to their societies to go with him, and I don't see a living Rand abandoning them, especially considering VoG and his epiphany about love.

[Nightstrike]

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless

 

The Age is not special, it is merely a repeat of the Third Age. However, that hardly means that Rand's choices or some other factor besides the nature of the Age itself cannot make this time around different. The Wheel is merely repeating the pattern it has woven before, for now. But I think it is foolish to assume that RJ repeating what is stated in the books, that the Wheel is endlessly repeating Ages, to mean that nothing can ever change.

 

Free will exists in the series and the pattern is constantly being adjusted. Therefore, it is certainly possible to change or even eliminate the pattern, with Balefire or otherwise.

That quote alone may not say that the DO can't be killed or replaced. There are other quotes posted in this thread. The quote you just posted does say that Fain's circumstances do not mean that there is anything special about this Age. The DO can't be affected by the Pattern, and Fain is part of the Pattern. So...

[gallows11]

Nah it won't be final. The dragon is the biggest repairman the pattern has. He only appears in two of the three ages when man has messed up and brought back the DO. Unlike the others like Gaidal and Birgitte who seem to be able to appear in any age. They come in as needed but the dragon is basically the cavalry. Ya save em till its absolutely neccessary to bring them in unless you are murdering the opposing force and just want to rub it in.

[Gordar]

But I think it is foolish to assume that RJ repeating what is stated in the books, that the Wheel is endlessly repeating Ages, to mean that nothing can ever change.

 

Those that are part of the pattern do not have enough freedom to cause such change, only those that are not part of the pattern. If you imagine a nihilist who is aware that nothing will ever change without the help of an external force & if the only known external force is the DO, you might imagine that this person might join the DO. You don't have to make up an entirely original nihilist. All you have to do is remember the name Elan Morin Tedronai (Ishamael).

 

It's his belief that, since the DO is the only presence/creature (besides the creator, but we haven't seen much of him) not part of the pattern, he's also the only creature capable of truly original ideas, it's inevitable that he (the DO) will eventually win. Maybe not in this age, but certainly in one of the turnings of the wheel. When that happens, it's the end (for everyone, including himself and the other forsaken).

 

The pattern answers this threat by making people ta'veren, who set things straight again.

 

If too much balefire was used, the pattern would simply make a person who strongly disagrees with using it ta'veren and he'd then convince everyone to stop using balefire.

 

This doesn't mean people have no freedom at all. Imagine the pattern being a loom with all kinds of loose/slack waft threads (the vertical threads in most looms) in it. Their beginnings and endings are fixed, but you can pull at the threads & their shape will change slightly. As long as the beginnings and endings of those threads are still approximately in the same position, the pattern will allow it. If the beginnings and endings of these threads stray too far from their original beginnings and endings, the pattern will make someone ta'veren to put these threads back in place.

 

The DO has managed to push his finger through the waft threads and he's wiggling his finger around. If he does this without opposition or if he managed to push an entire fist through the waft threads, he'll do so much damage that the waft threads and the pattern itself are destroyed.

 

If the DO is succesfully opposed, however, the pattern will correct itself again & keep on going, at least until the next 3rd age.

 

I don't know if the DO is capable of enough original thought or not, but that seems to be what Ishamael thinks (I've never personally met the DO, so I wouldn't be able to say).

[gallows11]

As far as ishamael goes I don't think he's as crazy as the other forsaken beliieve. Isn't he naeblis now?

[Randzamon]

I think, the Fain vs. Rand vs. the DO is comparable to the Matrix movies.

 

Rand = Neo

DO = Deus Ex Machina

Fain = Agent Smith

 

Fain being something unique in THIS particular age as is Agent Smith in the movies, this character will probably decide the "last" battle. Of course, there is not much information we can get out of the Matrix movies to predict an end of WoT, but both heroes (Rand/Neo) are appearing over and over, fighting against evil (=DO/Deus Ex Machina). We do not know how Neo made peace with the machines in earlier versions of the Matrix and if there has been an Agent Smith character involved. But since THIS special version of the Matrix (=turning of the Wheel) has been chosen to tell a story about, there must be something special.

So my guess is: Rand seals away the DO, sacrifices himself for humanity and is killed by Fain (but also killing Fain). Finally the world will have a new opportunity and the oracle and the architect (I do not know who their equivalents are in WoT) will talk about how long humantiy is freed from the DO (until a new search for more power opens the prison again).

[OptimusPrime]

the oracle and the designer (I do not know who their equivalents are in WoT)

 

How cool would it be, if Demandred killed Rand, and Moridin was dying, and he went to T'A'R to talk to Rand about a way to survive. Would be like the architect going to see the oracle.

[lordofsoup]

If the DO cannot be affected by the Pattern, the Dragon has no chance at sealing him away in the first place. The DO and the Creator if they truly are equals, can be destroyed or damaged in some way. Otherwise the Dragon would never have been able to seal the DO away in the first place. Granted, the DO was not able to gather most of his strength, but the face that a moral can fight against some of the DO's power shows that they are not all powerful, otherwise, even the slightest fraction of their power would be enough to stop the Dragon. Granted, It could be argued that the Creator gave the Dragon the power to stop the DO, but then in the spirit of Balance there would have to be something that could resist the Creator. Also the Creator could have given the Dragon power to resist the DO, but then the Creator would be taking an active part in stoping the DO, which is in direct violation his own words.

 

@ I think Fain is destined to become an anti-Hero of the Horn. He is unique, and that is the sort of thing that the Pattern seems to like to scoop up.

[WhiskyJack]

^^You say Granted a lot. By the way, I don't think Creator or DO is omnipotent being. Omnipotence is impossible.

[FarShainMael]

RJ is omnipotent as regards the WoTverse.

[nojnomad]

RJ is omnipotent because he is the creator and the DO, both at the same time.

[SheaththeSword]

@Randzamon: Please learn what Deux Ex Machina means. Neither its literal translation nor its literary usage correspond to your usage of the term.

 

 

Earlier in this thread many people were arguing about the apprent contradictions between what RJ said on the DO and the Pattern, and what LTT remembers of patching the Bore.

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

Kurafire: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

RJ: What? Do they have souls you mean?

Kurafire: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are a part of that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

So this is cannon. The Pattern, including any of its constituent threads, cannot affect the DO. 'Affect' would include 'touching' the DO.

 

Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?

It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!

-tGS, Ch 22

 

We do not know how sane LTT was at this point, if he was remembering correctly or even if his perception of events at the time of Patching the Bore was accurate.

Let us assume that he is sane at the time, remembers correctly and has all the correct info.

He says only that SAIDIN touched the DO. The One Power drives the Wheel, and is intrinsically linked to many of its threads, but is NOT part of the Pattern. It is not a thread, therefore not part of the Pattern.

 

So the Pattern did not directly affect the DO, but something which drives the weaving of the Pattern. Granted it was controlled and directed by threads in the Pattern, but the threads themselves did not do the touching.

 

This would also seem to resolve the issue of Balefire destroying the DO - it might take more of the OP than any living Channler can employ, but as per the information we have, it could still destroy the DO. Theoretically.