The Dark One will just be sealed

[Nightstrike]

Towers of Midnight book tour 4 November 2010, Dallas Borders - Catherine Sedai reporting

 

Q: Somebody asked who his favorite villain is to write.

A: He says that he enjoys a lot of them, but that writing Padan Fain is very enjoyable, because by this point in the story he is just bonkers (his word) so it's fun to write such an insane perspective. He said specifically, the excerpt Harriet read aloud was pretty much his favorite to write. (see above)

The DO is evil, but he ain't insane or human.

 

Austin Moore on Twitter - 16 August 2010 12:01 pm

Who is nastier in your opinion between Padan Fain and Isam/Slayer?

Brandon - 17 August 12:22 am

Nastier? Fain. But I think Slayer is cooler.

Slayer is cooler, but Slayer won't replace the Dark One (either).

 

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Brandon:

…

There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has…just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power…we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than…there are other evil things that are old in a similar way.

I suppose the evil of Shadar Logoth must have existed during other turnings as well. Same kind of evil, anyway.

 

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005

Robert Jordan Answers:

...

(By the way, any other artifacts that might be lying around from Shadar Logoth would have the same long-term corrupting effect as the dagger. Fortunately, or unfortunately, any such thing would need to be metal or stone. The wood and fabric had decayed. It wouldn't have been pleasant to get a splinter from, say, a chair from Shadar Logoth.)

 

The destruction of Shadar Logoth has not driven Fain any more insane. I'm not certain he'd be able to function at all if he were any madder than he already is. But being insane doesn't make him any less dangerous, only less predictable. He no longer responds to situations or events in any sort of sane, logical manner.

…

The Dagger was a tiny fraction of Shadar Logoth, and Shadar Logoth was a tiny fraction of the entire Wheel. The DO can destroy the Wheel. The DO is a logical being, unlike Fain.

 

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Jordan: Once he could get his hand on the dagger, he wanted out. He didn't know Rand was coming. Once he realized he wouldn't be able to have any influence, at least, get his hands on the dagger and go, because the dagger is key, the dagger pulls at him.

The Dagger obviously means a lot to Fain/Mordeth.

 

DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting

 

Jordan: No. Fain can contaminate people because he has the dagger; it is the dagger. What Verin and Moiraine thought was incorrect; they were extending it too far. ...

The Dagger!

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

Q: What is Fain?

RJ: Mordeth + person. Mordeth is a human-made evil. The black wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy. Fain is anti-Forsaken as well as anti-Rand. He has a lot of skills and abilities outside of channeling. He can not channel.

The DO ain't got nothing human in him. Fain's powers have nothing to do with channeling. Fain is a mortal, and he has a physical body.

 

Thus Spake The Creator - Shadar Logoth

 

The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction.

Humans are mortals & part of the Pattern. The DO is not affected by the Pattern. Humans can not affect the Dark One.

[PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro]

However, I certainly can't see him diving into the Bore and driving the dagger between the DO's shoulder blades for the big kill. And I see Moridin's comment about the stupidity of Rand's statement being ratification that the Creator/DO is a yin/yang thing and coexistence is a basic requirement. Lanfear may well have been deluded when she told Rand they could supplant the DO with the Choedan Kal. The Forsaken have been wrong before.

How can anyone dive through the Bore? The Bore exists everywhere... How can the DO be affected by the Pattern, when RJ told us he can't? The DO does not even have shoulder blades. The DO is stronger than the Wheel, and Fain is so much less than Shadar Logoth.

 

Figures of speech. I don't think Fain will or can kill the Dark One. You never know, he might. Have shoulder blades that is.

[Nightstrike]

He doesn't have a physical body. I suppose he is "above" such things.

[PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro]

He doesn't have a physical body. I suppose he is "above" such things.

You don't reckon he (it) would be keen on rippling up for the Day of Return? Getting a six pack and some guns?

[Nightstrike]

The only things outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern. If the Dark One got access to the Wheel & the Pattern, then it wouldn't be for him to get himself a body. It would be for the purpose of destruction of the Wheel & the Pattern. Slaying the serpent/ending time. No more Wheel, no more Pattern, no more Ages, and no more Fain.

[WhiskyJack]

Goooooo Darkie!

 

 

And those who are prideful and refuse to bow down shall be laid low and made unto dust!

[Jimvzyl]

I don't want to go against what people have been saying in this thread as there is considerably more proof (from the Authors specifically) pointing to the mission of the DO.

 

But Verin's TGS statements allude to something more - "I don't think young Al'Thor understands the DO, not all evil is as obvious as the Forsaken".

 

Isn't destruction for the sake of destruction the most obvious of all evil? If the DO is merely the antithesis of the Creator, and he wants to unmake the Wheel, because it's his nature to oppose the Creator, isnt that the most simplistic form of evil there is?

 

I tend to believe that being evil for the sake of selfish ambition is slightly more complex than the DO's "Me smash now" attitude, which goes against Verin's statements.

 

I'm waiting for a true reveal on the purpose and drive of the DO.

[Nightstrike]

Isn't that what evil is about? Hating/stuff like that? What other motivations could there be?

[Jimvzyl]

If I seek wealth and power, and then am driven to nefarious deeds in order to accomplish my goal, only to be thwarted just before I could achieve my deceitful goal by some hero - A merging of my greed, anger, hate for the individual who stopped me, jealousy about how much he is loved' - drives me to become truly Evil. That, although not super-complicated, is more complex to me than the DO.

 

The DO just seems, evil. No reasoning. It's his nature. It's a kind of 1800's view on psycopathy. He's bad cos he's bad. I hardly see that as complex.

 

Unless Verin believes that the promises to the Forsaken lends itself to a belief that the DO wants to rule Randland, when in fact, he wants to destroy it and Verin is identifying this dupe. But then, why would it matter about what Rand thought? He's not directly involved in that dynamic. Why would it matter if the DO wanted to rule or destroy to him? His goal wouldnt really change in my opinion. So Verin needs to be alluding to something else, that Rand doesn't understand - that he needs to understand about the DO in order to defeat/affect him.

[gallows11]

I've read a good bit of these and I'm kinda shocked that so far no one has mentioned the difference in the DOs prison from the first age. Remember that in the AOL there was no bore. When LTT sealed it he just put a gate up basically. What rand is going to do is basically fill the bore in as if it had never been. And while is is a remote possibilty that fain can somehow become the new DO I doubt it. I think however he will have a role in holding the DO back after rand breaks the last seal. And alivia is going to play a role in rands death(I know that this belongs on another board but oh well) so she is probably gonna be the other female he chooses to wield callandor with. (The books say she is even more powerful than nynaeve.)

[gallows11]

To reply to jim. I think verin was trying to say that like rj himself said the DO and creator are like yin and yang. They exist simply to define one another. One needs to create and one needs to destroy want has nothing to do with it. Other authors have done similar things by saying that without light there can be no darkness and vice versa. And while this seems simple enough once you break it down it begins to look like a paradox. And as humans our minds rebel at paradox which would make the duo unfathomable to mere mortals.

[SylvanFox]

I don't want to go against what people have been saying in this thread as there is considerably more proof (from the Authors specifically) pointing to the mission of the DO.

 

But Verin's TGS statements allude to something more - "I don't think young Al'Thor understands the DO, not all evil is as obvious as the Forsaken".

 

Isn't destruction for the sake of destruction the most obvious of all evil? If the DO is merely the antithesis of the Creator, and he wants to unmake the Wheel, because it's his nature to oppose the Creator, isnt that the most simplistic form of evil there is?

 

I tend to believe that being evil for the sake of selfish ambition is slightly more complex than the DO's "Me smash now" attitude, which goes against Verin's statements.

 

I'm waiting for a true reveal on the purpose and drive of the DO.

 

I thought she was alluding to the TP somehow (possible she learned a little bit about it). Rand says that it is like 10,000 times sweeter than saidin. That's pretty sweet, considering how saidin makes people feel more alive than normal. The Dark One is evil, but he can make you feel good.

[gallows11]

I don't personally think that the true power is evil. I think its more along the lines of what the 2 greater entities wield. And the adverse effects it has on mortals is because they weren't meant to wield it.

[WhiskyJack]

I don't like the idea of good vs. evil. Too christian and boring. Creator is order and DO chaos.

[Stitch]

Ive always found the personification of chaos to be a limited concept... in fact im thinking of including it in a story im writing atm.. And in christianity the difference between good and evil, has... changed over time - particularly the role and nature of God (and subsequently the devil) from the OT to the NT (tis why I earlier mentioned the argument of a God/Satan pairing as opposites was somewhat flawed)

 

Anyway, considering that the DO has always only been sealed, its difficult to see how this time will be any different (what is different this time as opposed to the many other times that the DO has been on the verge of breaking free? Edit: Gallows- in the AoL they had merely forgotten there WAS a DO, we are told perhaps incorrectly that the dark one has been freed, imprisoned and forgotten many times over), however we are told that this will be the last time (that might be wrong, who knows).

 

So the question is what are the other possibilities?

-The dark one breaks free - the pattern is severely damaged or destroyed

-The dark one is freed - the pattern is adjusted to free the dark one

-The dark one gets sealed - the seal maintaining the pattern is reinvigorated or replaced

-The dark one gets killed/destroyed - the pattern no longer has to deal with a disruptive force

-The dark one gets altered in some way - the dark one might be amended in order to 'add' good or perhaps to 'remove' evil (in which case there will need to be either some source of good or else somewhere to put the evil)

-The pattern gets altered in some way - for example the pattern might be expanded to include the dark one, as opposed to merely imprisoning it

 

Those are the choices that I could see. Some are more likely than others.

[WhiskyJack]

Well pattern is merely a tool of sort. Wheel is the key. It's the wheel DO intends to reprogram of sort..spread chaos

[Stitch]

Actually its more the other way around, the wheel is a tool (or perhaps instrument would be a better analogy) to create the pattern (the music that follows); but yeah, affecting the wheel is the key to making long term change (for age after age) as opposed to altering the pattern which would be shorter term changes (what is happening now or about to happen in the near future)... so it would depend on what you are attempting to do (noting that it is probably quite significantly harder to mess with the wheel than the pattern)

[WhiskyJack]

Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

[Stitch]

Which is a saying for whatever happens happens; it doesn't ascribe intelligence or intention to the wheel as an entity. There is nothing to suggest that the pattern or the wheel is capable of cognition; even the Ta'veren which are described as self repair mechanisms do not indicate intelligence, just in the same way that white blood cells are created and act without our conscious direction.

[WhiskyJack]

So Fain will be ignored by Wheel?

[gallows11]

I know they had forgotten him which is why I say the prison was complete. But there were those who had rediscovered him. There was no flawed seal on his prison to degrade over time. It was one that he personally could not effect. He needed human agents to do it for him. It would make sense seeing as how the whole thing is a cycle.

[jweiss]

I wanted to chime in and throw out a theory I have. It seems to me that everything in the WoT has a counterpart. Creator / Dark One, Saidin / Saidar, etc. Everything except for the True Power. I'm thinking maybe there's a 'good' equivilent or counterpart to the True Power and that somehow Rand will find it/receive it. And with that power, Rand will be able to do whatever it is that he's planning on doing.

 

On a different note, I have question. If the DO is outside the pattern, does that mean that balefire won't hurt/affect him since it just burns a person's thread out of the pattern?

[gallows11]

Well if he's not in the pattern then probably not as he has no thread at all. And rand has already used what people in the books is the true power. It has the same feel and all but it never actually says the he did. Could be that he used the other half of it if it even exists in the books.

[WhiskyJack]

Bordon Mandruim, it's called Light Power.

[The Fallen One]

I think the True power does have a counterpart: The One Power.

 

Think about it, true power has negative effects on the pattern, while the one power is the force that drives the wheel.

One power has two halves that promote working together, true power promotes selfishness.

 

Also, in a world where most things have a counterpart, it would not make sense for there to be three powers rather then two opposing ones,

 

Lastly, there is only one last book to bring this Light Power into the picture. It would be hard to do and not make it feel clunky and cheaply thrown in just to save the day.

 

There are probably more things about it that make sense, but I just woke up so my brain is not working.