Taim and Others

[skalors3]

I have been thinking about this for a while now; I remember the subject being brought up here. What if the wheel is spitting out people to help Rand to replace those few forsaken and other characters that assited LT in the last battle (I dare not say first battle).

 

I base my assumptions on Taim, being much like Sammuel (LT could not have accomplished what he accomplished without Sammuel) and Rand having three wives instead of one (LT Balefired his old wife Ileyna (sp)) and maybe Av, Elayne and Min make up who Ileyna was. I see the old forsaken being destroyed and thirteen new forsaken being sealed away. This is just a theory.

[Wolfsbane]

I don't recall LT balefiring Ilyena.. I distinctly remember him noting her dead body lying on the floor when Ishy gave him back some of his sanity.. Strange, the insane Forsaken can grant another the gift of sanity but not himself.. Maybe like healing, oh well.

I'm still for the "Taim is a Demandred Proxy" team, educated by the Dem which would explain his mastery of the power and how he knows a great deal of the AoL yet not being a Forsaken.

Sammael and Dem were great generals, like Mat or Bashere, which were their usefulness.. In the last battle there will be Dreadlords, be they Taim's Ashaman or the Black Ajah, while it will be the Tower united under Egwene and the Logain loyal Ashaman to fight them. Taim may very well be elevated to Forsaken status before the Last Battle, but if he is a Dem proxy (or anyone else's that isn't dead) I doubt they'd let him get that far.

 

OFF TOPIC

Last Battle duels

 

Logain vs. Taim

Shadar Haran vs. Lan

Perrin and Mat (and their armies- Seanchan&Band and the West-2 Rivers, Saldaea, Ghealdan) vs. the Mydraal and Trollocs... and Fain?

Rand vs. Morridin

Eg, Nyn, Elayne, Moiraine vs. the female forsaken & the black ajah remnants

 

-wolfs

 

PS- read LoC when Rand is talking to Herid Fel (sp?) about the Last Battle and Herid talks about time beign a wheel. There is a Bore driven into the DO's prison, then it is sealed, then it is broken, then it is properly patched. Then a Bore is driven.. etc, etc.

AOL and the Third Age are part of one cycle. There must be a time when no one remembers the DO even existing, like the AOL, before the DO can have a Bore driven through his prison again. No seals, but a true patch that is as good as it was before Lanfear dug into it.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Who are the "few forsaken" that assisted Lews Therin during sealing of the Bore? The Hundred Companions were not comprised of any Forsaken. Are you getting confused by the fact that the ones that were sealed up were just a few of the Forsaken? The others died or were hunted down and killed during the Breaking.

 

Until the 2nd Age comes around again, there isn't need for any such repetition. Nothing demands that 13 Forsaken are accidentally sealed up with the Dark One this time.

 

Elayne, Aviendha and Min are not Ilyena reincarnated. That would require Ilyena to have had 3 seperate souls inhabiting a single body. You only get a 1 to 1 relationship between body and soul.

[Wolfsbane]

grunt and grunt, i agree Cwester

[skalors3]

If you remember, which you may not, Sammuel served with LT. His anger grew as LT received credit for things Sammuel did, or he wasn't being recognized by the rest of the populace.

 

Lanfear was LT's lover and thew both learned how to use the power together, her desire for power drove her to do what she did.

 

I have to look back, but I am certain that LT balefired Ileyna. As for the three women, I am not implying that they are Ilyena in three bodies, I am implying that if you combine the three women, they equal the person that Ilyena was (personality, etc..)

[Bob T Dwarf]

No, LTT killed his wife without balefire. It was her body he saw lying there when he came somewhat to himself after Ishy "treated" him.

[Guest Majsju]

I base my assumptions on Taim, being much like Sammuel (LT could not have accomplished what he accomplished without Sammuel) and Rand having three wives instead of one (LT Balefired his old wife Ileyna (sp)) and maybe Av, Elayne and Min make up who Ileyna was. I see the old forsaken being destroyed and thirteen new forsaken being sealed away. This is just a theory.

 

If Taim resembles any of the forsaken, it's Demandred. The jealousy, the "almost" as good as Rand, the man is almost a blueprint copy of Demandred, and Demandred's relationship with LTT.

 

And since Demandred betrayed LTT...In case anyone had missed where Taim is headed :D

 

Shadar Haran vs. Lan

 

Are you kidding? Lan would be sliced like a kebab in two seconds, if SH even bothered to use a sword, and not just set Lan on fire.

[Wolfsbane]

Are you kidding? Lan would be sliced like a kebab in two seconds, if SH even bothered to use a sword, and not just set Lan on fire.

 

I'll give you SH'll be a bugger to take down, I wouldn't write Lan off so quick.. I could see Lan leading the Golden Crane and the Borderlanders against an army of shadowspawn led by SH. He's a general, not a duelist like Morridin's inevitable purpose.. Does SH have any abilities outside of an overpowered Lurk?

Then again, RJ may finally recognize that he'll have to kill off some more important ppl than a stupid Tinker and no name Coplins.

Any road, who else would SH go up against? Rand? or Fain?

I actually like the idea of Fain and SH going up against one another, just thought of it, another shade of black going against purest black..

 

Just the showdowns, doesn't mean good or light will win between them necessarily. Just some speculation of how RJ would set it up.

 

And LTT and Lanfear didn't learn to use the One Power together, that was her and another man, who dug the Bore and that was when she pledged her soul to the DO, right then. Some speculation has been that the body Moridin uses now is the body of the man who had been with her, but I'm uncertain without my BWB.

 

And thank you Bob T Dwarf.

 

Sammael and Dem were very much alike in the fact that they felt LTT excelled above them, but Dem was over EVERYTHING.. Ilyena, strength in the power, taking risks.. If there hadn't been LTT- Demy would have been the Dragon. Now speculate as you may who would be Dragon if there wasn't Rand, I say it'd be Taim. Which would make me think why Dem would take him under his wing.. Not teach him everything with the power, but enough, and to get him to establish himself with Rand. "Demandred always used his proxies."

Sammael was a man jealous of the ackolade bestowed upon LTT so he switched sides, immortality and all that, but he's NOTHING like Taim,

If you remember, which you may not

to borrow your own words skalor.

 

"TFoH,Ch3 - Demandred went over to the Great Lord because of his envy of Lews Therin."

"LoC,Ch51 - Lews Therin mutters that he will kill Demandred first, then Sammael. Demandred wanted Ilyena."

"(LoC,Prologue) - Barid Bel Medar is born one day after Lews Therin. When Lews Therin is appointed leader, he turns to the Shadow because he despises the man he considers his inferior."

-http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/ Characters-Demandred

 

How else would LTT remember Ilyena's bloody face if he balefired her? He didn't. He simply did not balefire her. He killed her with the One Power or his own hands, we don't know. But she was there for him to see and to sicken him with guilt. It was her face, glazed eyes and covered in blood staring up at him, that drove him to Travel outside of TV and destroy himself creating Dragonmount.

Can we call this argument destroyed, now?

 

There may be various facets of Ilyena in the other girls, but they're not all parts of her personality.. They're more round than that. The Dragon isn't destined like Birgitte and Gaidal Cain to fall in love with the same person each time the Wheel is spun. Do we know ANYTHING about Ilyena beyond her being blonde to justify this? Has LTT's insane ramblings in Rand's head given us the slightest clue that she had Min's way of making fun of him, or Avi's stubborn heart, or Elayne's... uhhhh.. hair?

 

A question, perhaps. Are there new souls being created, to replace those burned out by balefire? Or is it an inevitability that it will eventually run out if another Age decides to not go as easy on the old balefire?

Maybe that's the only thing the lazy Creator is doing.

Hmmm

 

-wolfs

[akuhn]

i didn't know where else to ask this, but the ogrier with the seanchan do they need to be in a stedding and are they goining to play a part with the ogrier on this side of the world? will they play an important part in what the ogriers this side will do at tg? and what kind of help or lack there of will they give? just really curious.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Seanchan Ogier do not experience the Longing (the need to be inside a stedding) because stedding are more common in Seanchan, and therefore the Ogier in that area found the stedding much more quickly after the Breaking than the Ogier on the Randland side of the ocean. Apparently, the only Ogier to cross the ocean with the Seanchan are Deathwatch Guards, so it is unlikely that they will play any role in TG, or with the other Ogier, independent of whatever the Seanchan position is. Still, with the hints about the Great Stump ang the Book of Translation, it may be possible that some Ogier only secret or requirement will prompt them to act otherwise ... we don't have enough information to say exactly how though.

[Guest Majsju]

Any road, who else would SH go up against? Rand? or Fain?

I actually like the idea of Fain and SH going up against one another, just thought of it, another shade of black going against purest black..

 

I've had Fain as the one taking out SH for years now, it fits with SH being too big and bad even for Rand to deal with, and Fain's fixation with killing anyone who even thinks about hurting Rand, and thus robbing him of his revenge.

 

Does SH have any abilities outside of an overpowered Lurk?

 

According to RJ, the DO has put some of his powers into SH, without elaborating further. But we have seen abilities suspiciously similar to channeling, for example.

 

Some speculation has been that the body Moridin uses now is the body of the man who had been with her, but I'm uncertain without my BWB.

 

Definitly not. Beidomon killed himself in the AOL, and even if the DO could revive a dead body by putting a new soul into it, I doubt anyone would bother to save a corpse in a stasis box for 3000 years just in case they might need it.

 

didn't know where else to ask this, but the ogrier with the seanchan do they need to be in a stedding and are they goining to play a part with the ogrier on this side of the world? will they play an important part in what the ogriers this side will do at tg? and what kind of help or lack there of will they give? just really curious.

 

There are nmore steddings in Seanchan, so the Ogier there never developed the Longing.

[WarkWark]

Well I know this is a little bit off topic, But I agree with the fact that Fain will end up doing some good in the novel to save rand before the end. I always pictured him as the (flamewar go!) Gollum figure in the WoT books. Even though he has been trying to kill Rand to reclaim something of his (remove the distilling he received from the DO) but in the end he is needed to do some final good before he dies.

 

As for Taim, The fact that he says "Let the lord of Chaos rule" which we hear numerous Forsaken say during the books basically makes him a new dreadlord, and his special group of Asha'Men are obviously brought to the dark side with him also. I don't know if it will be him vs Logain really though, I was guessing that once Egwene regains the Tower, she will bring the good Asha'Men to be true Aei Sedai in the tower as well. That is the only way to make the tower truly whole. That might be why RJ made a specific reference to the Black Tower having walls that seemed like they would never be completed, and Taim having his fortress in a completely different area of the world only being reachable via a gateway.

[Trib4l]

Logain is the only one who considers Taim and the BT to be a real threat to Rand. Rand himself seems to easily dismeess the BT as a real problem as seen in CoT of KoD. Add that to Egwene's vision of Logain stepping over Rand's body onto a black block and I think it's pretty clear that Logain is going to deal with Taim.

 

On another note regarding Chosen/Forsaken v. Dreadlords. In RJ's blog he's stated that all "dark channelers" were considered Forsaken. The term Dreadlord did not come into play until after the Bore was sealed and the big 13 were trapped. The BWB says the opposite, but RJ has apparently said that some information in the BWB is deliberately incorrect to reflect a historian's work based on incomplete information.

 

Taim would likely have been considered one of the Forsaken in the AoL, but since the big 13 have such a chip on their shoulders about the current channelers, they likely just consider him a DF that can channel. Also, he seems to take orders from several of the Forsaken, so we know he's subservient to them rather than directly to the DO.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Also, he seems to take orders from several of the Forsaken, so we know he's subservient to them rather than directly to the DO

 

Which "several"? Moridin doesn't count, since he's been named Nae'blis all the Forsaken nominally take orders from him. So which others?

 

I think the difference between what is considered a Dreadlord (any Darkfriend who can channel, including the Black Ajah) and one of the Chosen is a special mark that the Chosen recieve from the Dark One. This is, in part, what makes it so that the Myrddraal (excepting, of course, our dear friend Shaidar Haran) have to obey the Chosen's orders. If it turns out that Taim is the one who ordered the assault on Rand at Lord Algarin's manor house, then that would be at least circumstantial evidence that he has become one of the upper Chosen, on the same level as Demandred, Moghedien, Cyndane, Graendal, Aran'gar, Mesaana, and Semirhage (in no particular order). In terms of strength in the Power, he is very close to Rand, so he's at least in the mix relative to the other Chosen, and probably stronger than the girls.

[Trib4l]

That's why I am saying that he's not one of the Chosen. He obviously answers to them.

 

If you want to get technical about Moridin being Chosen or not, that's fine. I still include him since, they all seem to see him that way. Nae'blis for now, but who can say later.

 

We know that Demandred has been involved with giving orders at the BT from the POV of Kisman in WH right before he gets killed by Fain. I wouldn't be surprised if Dashiva was tossing some orders around too, although we don't know for sure.

 

In as far as Moridin's involvement, the presence of the red and black is a strong hint, and I've seen Maj mention the presence of Sammael's sigil somewhere in KoD at the BT.

[RobertAlexWillis]

We know that Demandred has been involved with giving orders at the BT from the POV of Kisman in WH right before he gets killed by Fain. I wouldn't be surprised if Dashiva was tossing some orders around too, although we don't know for sure.

 

No, we know that Taim and Demandred gave similar orders, separately. And "I wouldn't be surprised" hardly constitutes evidence.

 

In as far as Moridin's involvement, the presence of the red and black is a strong hint, and I've seen Maj mention the presence of Sammael's sigil somewhere in KoD at the BT.

 

Moridin is a different case, whether you enjoy admitting it or not. And wearing Sammael's sigil after Sammael is dead is not a sign of subservience, its an indication that Taim may have been impersonating Sammael to cover his disobedience of Moridin's orders. A diguise would have fooled the Myrddraal as to which of the Chosen he was, but not as to the presence, or lack of presence, of the Chosen's mark from the Dark One. Which means, that if Taim successfully impersonated Sammael to a Myrddraal, then he has the same Mark as the other Chosen.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Hmmmmmmmmm...

 

Myrddraal seem to be pretty perceptive for not having eyes.

 

Even if someone had/has the mark of authority given to the Forsaken, I'd expect them to notice he didn't look anything like the guy he was pretending to be.

 

Or, are you suggesting that he empoyed a version of the Mask of Mirrors that was good enough to fool them?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Or, are you suggesting that he empoyed a version of the Mask of Mirrors that was good enough to fool them?

 

In combination with the MARK given by the Dark One which cannot be counterfeited, yes.

 

Read At the Gardens, chapter 3 of Knife of Dreams. Specifically page 147 in my copy. Someone impersonated Sammael well enough to fool the Myrddraal. To quote:

 

"Nevertheless, Sammael, or someone disguised as him, gave orders to Myrddraal, and they obeyed, so it was one of the Chosen." Moridin scanned around the chairs as though he could detect who it had been.

 

Halima/Aran'gar thinks to herself, further down the same page:

 

She would very much like to know who had begun playing her own game. Or whether Sammael really was alive.

 

So, apparently Halima has successfully fooled the Myrddraal with a disguise. If Taim has the Chosen's Mark it would as easy for him to "look" like Sammael to a Myrddraal as it would for Halima.

 

The Mark is the key to the disguise, as far as the Myrddraal are concerned.

 

As a side note, we do know it was not Sammael, since RJ has stated unequivocally in more than one setting that Sammael is, to quote one of those statements, "toast". If you want, I can hunt down a reference, but lots of people here will confirm it.

[Trib4l]

Not necessary - I know RJ has said Sammy is permadead.

 

How about this one?

 

Do you think it then possible that Taim has been receiving orders from SH as well? That would easily explain him being marked, since that seems to be something SH likes to do.

[Bob T Dwarf]

In order for that impersonator to be Taim, we first have to establish that he ever met Sammael and thus knew what he looked like well enough to craft the disguise.

 

I haven't found any such link.

 

Moridin's statement is made at a full-dress meeting of all of the surviving Forsaken. There is no indication of Taim's presence.

 

I might buy Taim as a Dreadlord, but not as a newly descended Forsaken.

 

The passages you quote do open up two ingriguing questions though:

1. Who was impersonating Sam?

2. Who has Halima previously impersonated?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Bob, my argument was entirely conditional on us finding out later that Taim ordered that attack. IF we find out that he ordered it, THEN it would be proof that he is Chosen like the others, since only a Chosen could have ordered the attack.

 

Incidentally, if you find a better answer than Taim to the first of your "intriguing questions", let me know.

 

Allow me to post another intriguing question of my own:

 

Why couldn't Taim have been "promoted" by the Dark One?

[Trib4l]

I've been wondering that myself, and think it's a possibility. Although why then hasn't he been seen showing up at the Forsaken gatherings?

 

We've seen Taim sporting Sammael's fist with the lightning bolts. So there's at least one connection. Small chance he'd create a sigil exactly the same as one of theirs.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Couldn't doesn't enter into it, I don't think.

 

I think the relevant question is: Why would the DO promote anyone from this Age?

 

So far as we can tell from everything in the books to this point, the DO shares the opinion of its Forsaken that the channelers of this Age are little more than children playing dressup. The only channeler the DO seems interested in adding to the list of the Forsaken is Rand, and then only because Rand incorporates LTT.

 

Taim neither knows enough nor has the necessary finesse, experience, and facility with the Power, so far as I can tell.

 

And, it isn't like we lack any other likely candidates to be the impersonator.

[Trib4l]

That right there is why I think Taim is no more than a lacky of several of the Forsaken. While I admit his promotion is a possibility, it's less likely than him just being one more dupe of the DO.

 

We've seen indications of Sammael, Moridin, and we know that Osan'Gar was in the BT as Dashiva. Demandred has given orders to other Asha'man that coincide with Taim's own orders. So, there's the potential for 3 Forsaken and 1 Nae'blis to be tooling with Taim and the BT.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why would the DO promote anyone from this Age?

 

Because that person is strong in the Power, and performing useful service.

 

Taim has probably recruited more Dreadlords under the guise of the Black Tower than all the other Forsaken combined. The other Forsaken haven't really covered themselves in glory so far. By comparison he's kicking their sorry hind-parts.

 

Taim neither knows enough nor has the necessary finesse, experience, and facility with the Power, so far as I can tell.

 

Please show me where we have seen an example of Taim's lack of experience and facility with the Power. So far, all we've seen him display is a remarkable ability for someone who supposedly picked it up on his own. Indications are that he recieved some instruction along the way, and given his now known allegiance, it probably came from Ishamael.

 

And, it isn't like we lack any other likely candidates to be the impersonator.

 

We have exactly four, Demandred, Graendal, Mesaana, and Semirhage. Start building a case.