Bin Laden dead

[Feral]

Well that's what I'm saying really, that it seems unlikely they made any attempt at capture. Even if he didn't have inconvenient things to say (not sure what these might be btw) I think - judging by the scenes of celebration - that Americans just hate Bin Laden too much.

[yoniy0]

inconvenient things to say (not sure what these might be btw)

Oh, I think Maj's referring to his happy CIA days.

[Nightstrike]

It doesn't matter to me if the tried to take him alive or not. I'm fine with him being dead. I'm fine with whatever decisions the president of the USA made. I haven't been "celebrating", but still.

[Majsju]

inconvenient things to say (not sure what these might be btw)

Oh, I think Maj's referring to his happy CIA days.

 

Nope. I am talking about something as simple as bin Ladin getting a chance to calmly sit down and give his story, his turning from a CIA-trained soldier fighting the Soviet Union, to the US enemy #1. People who have met him describe him as extremely intelligent, and a way of speaking that makes people listen. Ie something that would severly disrupt the simplistic view of "Us good, them bad" that has been the dominating image.

 

Now, if you really want some dirt on the US, put the Saudi royal family on trial. That would be fun.

[Nightstrike]

What? Is there any question in anyone's mind whether Bin Laden was a bad guy or not? How could there be?

[yoniy0]

What? Is there any question in anyone's mind whether Bin Laden was a bad guy or not? How could there be?

I have to admit, I didn't discuss the issue with anyone taking that position, so I can't really be sure what's on their minds. But here's what I think it comes down to:

I think some people view the US as villains because of the way they pursue their interests worldwide (especially in the Middle East, though). I'm not sure that's the real reason for the hatred - I rather think it's cultural differences more than anything - but it's presented and rationalized that way.

Viewing the world in this light, it's pretty natural to regard Bin Laden as some Russians might Stalin. He did terrible things (even/especially to his own people), but he did liberate Russia from the Nazi threat (and was part of the revolution that got rid of the Tzar). In a similar fashion, Bin Laden's offenses against civilians might, I think, be 'broomed under the carpet' in light of his resistance against the 'true' villains.

 

Not to mention (and let me apologize in advance if you find what follows offensive; I think it's an unpleasant truth - but truth nonetheless), a human life isn't worth the same to us when it's being taken in our backyard or halfway across the world. It just isn't.

[Nightstrike]

If they could have taken him alive, without putting themselves at any risk, then I don't think that would have made any difference for those individuals. Those who question whether Bin Laden was a bad guy, I mean. I think they would have held the same opinions anyway. About USA, and so on.

 

(I'm not an American, but I side with the USA on this.)

[Red2111]

When in a hostile environment, you must assume everyone you see a potential hostile combatant. A hand-grenade in her pocket could've took out an entire squadron. I don't find it hard to understand in the least, why she had to be shot (in the leg, and she did survive).

 

very true. AQ has been known to plant explosives one women & children. sometimes those women & children do it of their own free will. the fact that she's still alive after rushing this team of elite, speaks to the restraint that these soldiers showed even when they knew they were going after OBL.

 

 

 

Nope. I am talking about something as simple as bin Ladin getting a chance to calmly sit down and give his story, his turning from a CIA-trained soldier fighting the Soviet Union, to the US enemy #1. People who have met him describe him as extremely intelligent, and a way of speaking that makes people listen. Ie something that would severly disrupt the simplistic view of "Us good, them bad" that has been the dominating image.

 

i hadn't thought of this aspect either, as far as if he were put on trial. i do have to say, minus those US citizens who are birthers & those who hate the US and have joined AQ in those splinter cells we hear about on the news; anything that monster would have said woudl go through one ear and out the other and be counted for as lies by the main populace here in the states.

 

also, i can't say that they woudl have let the trial be pubic, it woudl have been behind closed doors. look at the treatment of any videos the creature released over the years; the gov took them and analyzed them to make sure there was no hidden message to give the okay to perform an act of terror. they woudl have the same fear if he was on trial.

 

not to mention the fear of retaliation by the public if he was held & tried ina place US citizens could find; as well as attempts at freeing him. overall, it's easier for him to have been killed. if anything, i think that was the reason they made it a kill rather than capture mission, if this is the case. someone else also brought up a very good point in this thread, had we put him on trial the world woudl be judging us. lord knows that creature woudln't get a fair trial and doesn't diserve one either; so it would have tarnished our image, especially in muslim countrys that are trying for a democracy (like Iraq & Egypt)

 

 

personally, i think OBL made a defensive move (a Seal saw him reaching for somethign and assumed it was a gun or explosive) and poped of two rounds to make sure this SOB didn't take out any more americans.

 

 

 

What? Is there any question in anyone's mind whether Bin Laden was a bad guy or not? How could there be?

 

depends on what side of the fence your fighting for really. its all about perspective if you want to boil it down simply.

 

 

Not to mention (and let me apologize in advance if you find what follows offensive; I think it's an unpleasant truth - but truth nonetheless), a human life isn't worth the same to us when it's being taken in our backyard or halfway across the world. It just isn't.

 

actually, this is very truthful and while it might be unpleasant ... well the truth normally is. take the "DC Sniper" (*glares* though he didn't go into DC and stayed mostly in Maryland *sniff*) people in the surrounding area felt more impact for this than a person in California. the same goes for other events that are area specific.

[OptimusPrime]

I dont think hes dead. Videos can be made, people can be told to talk, and idiots on the news can say that the killing puts Al Qaeda in the past. Doesnt make any of it true.

[Nightstrike]

I dont think hes dead.

Where is he then? Did they take him alive, but lied about it? Seems "extremely unlikely" to me.

 

(I'd take the word of the president of the USA over the word of extremists every time.)

[Elend]

I dont think hes dead. Videos can be made, people can be told to talk, and idiots on the news can say that the killing puts Al Qaeda in the past. Doesnt make any of it true.

 

AQ has said he's dead.

[yoniy0]

You guys do know that al-Qaeda is one word, right? For some reason, it bothers me seeing it abbreviated AQ.

[OptimusPrime]

All Im saying is that the way they broadcasted it on the news that they have assassinated someone, it just feels wrong. The same kind of wrong that has been said about 9/11. Story doesnt feel right, and they say on the news AQ is a thing of the past now? So if you get a load of fanatics, all you need to do is kill their leader and it ends? THAT is highly doubtful.

 

AQ have as much reason to lie about his death as Obamas superiors do.

[csarmi]

Why does it matter?

[Majsju]

All Im saying is that the way they broadcasted it on the news that they have assassinated someone, it just feels wrong. The same kind of wrong that has been said about 9/11. Story doesnt feel right, and they say on the news AQ is a thing of the past now? So if you get a load of fanatics, all you need to do is kill their leader and it ends? THAT is highly doubtful.

 

AQ have as much reason to lie about his death as Obamas superiors do.

 

Obamas administration are the last people who would want to lie about something like this. Just imagine the fallout if they did lie, and a while later bin Ladin pops out another video, apparently very much alive and well. That would be political suicide for Obama, and quite a few people in his administration, including hillary clinton, who is still young enough to run for president once Obama is out.

 

Whereas failing to get bin Ladin would not really have mattered the slightest, as he had become more and more irrelevant.

 

As for the papers talking about Al Quaida being a thing of the past, they are more or less right. Though that has nothing to do with the death of bin Ladin.

[OptimusPrime]

All Im saying is that the way they broadcasted it on the news that they have assassinated someone, it just feels wrong. The same kind of wrong that has been said about 9/11. Story doesnt feel right, and they say on the news AQ is a thing of the past now? So if you get a load of fanatics, all you need to do is kill their leader and it ends? THAT is highly doubtful.

 

AQ have as much reason to lie about his death as Obamas superiors do.

 

Obamas administration are the last people who would want to lie about something like this. Just imagine the fallout if they did lie, and a while later bin Ladin pops out another video, apparently very much alive and well. That would be political suicide for Obama, and quite a few people in his administration, including hillary clinton, who is still young enough to run for president once Obama is out.

 

Whereas failing to get bin Ladin would not really have mattered the slightest, as he had become more and more irrelevant.

 

As for the papers talking about Al Quaida being a thing of the past, they are more or less right. Though that has nothing to do with the death of bin Ladin.

 

I just think theres a multitude of lies surrounding this whole thing, 9/11 being the beginning of many. The story behind 9/11 has been torn apart time and time again now. I dont trust half of what I see on the news anymore these days, I dont see why this is any different.

[Elend]

You guys do know that al-Qaeda is one word, right? For some reason, it bothers me seeing it abbreviated AQ.

 

Plenty of single words are abbreviated into two letters.

[yoniy0]

As for the papers talking about Al Quaida being a thing of the past, they are more or less right.

Ooh, that's interesting. Mind giving me pointers to sources supporting this conclusion?

[Majsju]

As for the papers talking about Al Quaida being a thing of the past, they are more or less right.

Ooh, that's interesting. Mind giving me pointers to sources supporting this conclusion?

 

Uhm, there is no nice single source, as this is an analysis of events over the past year. But, a close look at the Arab Spring should give you a good clue.

[yoniy0]

Did I say a nice single one?

I don't consider the Arab Spring necessarily indicative of an end to Muslim global terrorism. The resentment these organizations fed on is still there in the public's heart; it didn't come from the leadership. For example, just a few months ago we wouldn't expect an Egyptian official to condemn Bin Laden's assassination.

Nonetheless, I would agree that an end to the oppression some Arab peoples suffered under their own governments might in the long run negate the conditions those organizations exploited. It remains to be seen, however, whether any new governments - assuming they'll last - would stop the oppression pattern. The revolution that deposed the Shah, for example, did not establish a non-oppressive regime (quite far from it).

[Majsju]

Did I say a nice single one?

I don't consider the Arab Spring necessarily indicative of an end to Muslim global terrorism. The resentment these organizations fed on is still there in the public's heart; it didn't come from the leadership. For example, just a few months ago we wouldn't expect an Egyptian official to condemn Bin Laden's assassination.

Nonetheless, I would agree that an end to the oppression some Arab peoples suffered under their own governments might in the long run negate the conditions those organizations exploited. It remains to be seen, however, whether any new governments - assuming they'll last - would stop the oppression pattern. The revolution that deposed the Shah, for example, did not establish a non-oppressive regime (quite far from it).

 

Well, noone is saying that a complete and immidiate end to jihadist terrorism is waiting around the corner, or even that Al Quaida is about to cease to exist.

But, what the Arab spring is showing, is a radical shift. From a culture where many youths felt powerless to do anything about their situation, where it was easy to blame all their grievances on the US, and to some extent Europe, and as a consequence a culture where it was easy for organisations like Al Quaida to play on those feelings in order to recruit the most radical youths, but also spread seeds for their ideology throughout society. To a culture where they shift the blame to their own oppressive dictators, and with that shift comes the realisation that they can do something about it, without having to blow up a subway train in London. And the more the feeling that you can change your own life for the better grows, the more interested people become in the things that does give a better life, like education, jobs, housing etc. And that is an attitude that leaves little room for fundamentalist religious views.

 

Of course, this does not mean that there will not be any radicals left. But Al Quaida has shifted from being one organisation that posed an actual global threat, to more of an umbrella organisation, where the local groups operate pretty much on their own. Which in turn is leading to terrorism moving, away from Europe and the US, and into Africa and southeast Asia instead. There will probably be a bit of expansion in the Middle east as well, but they seem to be mostlybiding their time atm. Understandable, as getting involved now would most likely turn even more people against them.

 

 

In other news, rumours has it that bin ladin was wearing a Barcelona-jersey when he was shot, so the US are not sure if they actually killed him, or if he was just faking it

[Red2111]

All Im saying is that the way they broadcasted it on the news that they have assassinated someone, it just feels wrong. The same kind of wrong that has been said about 9/11. Story doesnt feel right, and they say on the news AQ is a thing of the past now? So if you get a load of fanatics, all you need to do is kill their leader and it ends? THAT is highly doubtful.

 

AQ have as much reason to lie about his death as Obamas superiors do.

 

 

the story doesn't feel right becuase they keep changing it; it feels wrong because you don't trust the gov not to lie to you.

 

it's okay, alot of people feel the same; even at the beginning of this, a week ago i said the same thing; that the story didn't match up, that something felt wrong.

 

 

i do think one point you stress is wrong though. AQ would have more to gain by proving the US is lieing and producing a real new video of OBL if he is still alive rather than playing along. it does more damage and will cause more tension & strife; which is one of their goals. so really, AQ saying that OBL's dead has, imo, atleast clarified that OBL is either truely dead, or locked up in some CIA hole so far under ground and in the wild that he'll never hope to see the light of day again. either scenario is fine with me, and if the latter is true ... we'll sometimes its best for a nations security if the citizens are niave about some things.

[OptimusPrime]

All Im saying is that the way they broadcasted it on the news that they have assassinated someone, it just feels wrong. The same kind of wrong that has been said about 9/11. Story doesnt feel right, and they say on the news AQ is a thing of the past now? So if you get a load of fanatics, all you need to do is kill their leader and it ends? THAT is highly doubtful.

 

AQ have as much reason to lie about his death as Obamas superiors do.

 

 

the story doesn't feel right becuase they keep changing it; it feels wrong because you don't trust the gov not to lie to you.

 

it's okay, alot of people feel the same; even at the beginning of this, a week ago i said the same thing; that the story didn't match up, that something felt wrong.

 

 

i do think one point you stress is wrong though. AQ would have more to gain by proving the US is lieing and producing a real new video of OBL if he is still alive rather than playing along. it does more damage and will cause more tension & strife; which is one of their goals. so really, AQ saying that OBL's dead has, imo, atleast clarified that OBL is either truely dead, or locked up in some CIA hole so far under ground and in the wild that he'll never hope to see the light of day again. either scenario is fine with me, and if the latter is true ... we'll sometimes its best for a nations security if the citizens are niave about some things.

 

See, the thing is, there are people who have said before that AQ is a false flag terrorist group put in place by Americas stringpullers. Not America itself, but people who would use America and other nations as tools to influence our society. Everyone knows that no president is in charge-the exact same can be said of the English royal family and the Prime Minister-so it matters not what Obama says himself.

 

Bin Laden was a puppet just like Obama is.

 

The war on terrorism seems, to me, as much about control as it is about terrorism. In fact I would go as far as to say it is MORE about control. Bin Laden denied having anything to do with 9/11. Why would he? It doesnt make sense. You dont have a plane flown into THAT building to make a statement, and then deny it, because you havent made the statement clearly, then, have you?

 

I am not saying Bin Laden was not involved in 9/11. I am not saying America is responsible. I am just saying that NONE of this makes ANY sense whatsoever. You say seeing is believing, well this is true only if you take things at face value. A wise woman once said, the truth isnot told but realized. Seeing is not believing, far from it; the other way round would be closer.

[Nightstrike]

What? Who is the "puppet master"?

[OptimusPrime]

If I knew that I would be famous or dead.