Light Vs Dark - A Draw?

[coolpool]

Huh, I always thought this was pretty clear cut - Rand is one of the Light's Champion's, one being him/LTT/Dragon, one being Ameresu (with the Sword of Light!). There may have been others. Indeed, it is possible that any of the Heroes of the Horn could become The Champion of the Light, depending on who the wheel thought would do the best job (but the Rand/LTT soul and the main female hero are the two that the wheel picks the most often).

In one age, at least, one of these heroes turned, but was unable to destroy the world. This hero, this Champion of the Light, was not the Rand'Al Thor/LTT soul. He (or she) was a different hero fulfilling the role of Champion of the Light. Ishamael, in a classic Aes Sedia fashion, twisted words and mixed in half-truths in order to get what he wanted.

 

That was my understanding as well, although there have been good points made on both sides throughout this thread...

 

Same here aswell

[Vermillion]

Huh, I always thought this was pretty clear cut - Rand is one of the Light's Champion's, one being him/LTT/Dragon, one being Ameresu (with the Sword of Light!). There may have been others. Indeed, it is possible that any of the Heroes of the Horn could become The Champion of the Light, depending on who the wheel thought would do the best job (but the Rand/LTT soul and the main female hero are the two that the wheel picks the most often).

In one age, at least, one of these heroes turned, but was unable to destroy the world. This hero, this Champion of the Light, was not the Rand'Al Thor/LTT soul. He (or she) was a different hero fulfilling the role of Champion of the Light. Ishamael, in a classic Aes Sedia fashion, twisted words and mixed in half-truths in order to get what he wanted.

 

I don't think that's the case. As far as we know Ishy basing everything on is beliefs. There is no evidence that he has inside knowledge outside his own deductions and philosophical beliefs of the Wheel. Even is mad that he doesn't know about the fisher king.

 

As far as we know the DO is only a world threat in 2 ages and maybe 1-3 depending if there are draws. We don't know if AOL was a draw and Rand Age is the make up or there are always 2 ages with a third if there is a draw in the Reborn Age. And the Rand/LTT soul is always the main hero or "Dragon" during the Dark One breaking free ages as far as we know. There is no evidence there are other champions of light nor are there evidence that the shadow is a threat in other ages for the other CoL to be turned.

 

Not to mention that the "Dragon" soul and Ishy soul were said to be connected in most ages they're born. I don't have the quote though.

[Nightstrike]

Which definition did you people have in mind when you answered the poll? Any definition of that phrasing, or what Ishy talked with Rand about? (That makes all the difference for me, so that's why I wonder about it.)

 

 

 

 

I mean that I find it highly unlikely that RJ intended this to be an official title. It was just something RJ had Ishy say. So another character in the series would probably not have phrased it the same way.

 

For instance, I believe that the Dragon has been turned in previous turnings of the Wheel, and that someone else (or more than one character) has "filled in" in some ways for the Dragon. I guess one could choose to call them "the Creator's champions", if one wanted to. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

[Terez]

You have to tweet him at a good time. Weekdays are better than weekends - he'll likely never see your tweet if you send it on a weekend. And today Luckers flooded his feed so thoroughly that there's no way he got anything from this weekend.

[Erunion]

Besides, what's in a name?

Would a dragon by any other name smell so sweet? ( )

 

As a habit, I try not to put 100% faith in anything the characters say (especially somewhat crazy / evil characters like Ishy), and try to rely rather on what RJ has said.

As far as I know, RJ has said that LTT/Rand's soul would never be female, that there was a female champion (or the possibility of a female champion) and, if my memory serves me correctly, that that female champion was Ameresu. He didn't say (again, AFAIK) if anyone else could be the creator's champion, but I can't see why someone else couldn't do the job (Rand/Ameresu(?), however, being the two best suited for the job of taking down the DO). RJ also said that Ishy didn't lie in saying that one (at least) of the light's champion's had turned (of course, he could have believed it himself, but not told the truth, effectively making it not a lie). He also scoffed at the idea of trusting everything Ishy tells us (a particular sentiment I tend to agree with).

 

So yeah, that's it. Can't think of anything else to say on this subject.

[Nightstrike]

Besides, what's in a name?

Would a dragon by any other name smell so sweet? ( )

I think the Dragon soul is more of an official name.

 

As a habit, I try not to put 100% faith in anything the characters say (especially somewhat crazy / evil characters like Ishy), and try to rely rather on what RJ has said.

Yeah, and RJ answered about the truth of what that character said.

 

As far as I know, RJ has said that LTT/Rand's soul would never be female, that there was a female champion (or the possibility of a female champion) and, if my memory serves me correctly, that that female champion was Ameresu.

I haven't read that. I have read quotes where he said that the Dragon is always male.

[Nightstrike]

Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting

 

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul...is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

Ameresu isn't identified in any other way than that she's a woman (and has a soul).

 

 

Here's something RJ said about the story (and relevant to this thread, I think):

Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting

 

He also talked about how the early stages of the story evolved, about Rand starting out as Tam, coming back to Emond's Field (although it wasn't Emond's Field yet back then) after 20 years, realizing he'd outgrown it. And then prophecy tapping him on shoulder with the message that he was fated to save the world, and oh yeah, he'd die in the process. He went for Rand instead, because he wanted an innocent character, a character who could realize how little he knew, and thus could grow a lot more.

Rand is the one fated to save the world. Although that's made clear in the series as well.

[UncleButcher1980]

Which definition did you people have in mind when you answered the poll? Any definition of that phrasing, or what Ishy talked with Rand about? (That makes all the difference for me, so that's why I wonder about it.)

 

 

 

 

I mean that I find it highly unlikely that RJ intended this to be an official title. It was just something RJ had Ishy say. So another character in the series would probably not have phrased it the same way.

 

For instance, I believe that the Dragon has been turned in previous turnings of the Wheel, and that someone else (or more than one character) has "filled in" in some ways for the Dragon. I guess one could choose to call them "the Creator's champions", if one wanted to. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

 

 

I don't recall the wording Ishmael used, I don't have the book with me right now. But Champion of the Light seems commonly used among the fandom so I thought most would understand the meaning, and Robert Jordan has used it before though not in the books.

[Nightstrike]

I don't recall the wording Ishmael used, I don't have the book with me right now. But Champion of the Light seems commonly used among the fandom so I thought most would understand the meaning,

There's more than one possible definition of the same phrase/word in many cases. I say this is one case where it matters what you are talking about.

 

 

and Robert Jordan has used it before though not in the books.

The phrase was used by a fan, when talking about what Ishy told Rand. Some people in this thread try to use the phrase the fan used in order to prove something.

[UncleButcher1980]

For the sake of keeping things simple I think Champion of the Light will have to do, otherwise each poll question could become a thesis.

 

And Robert Jordan has used the phrase before in an answer, namely this one,

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting<br id="hkim">Q: (inaudible)<br id="kbsr">RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.<br id="ab9k">

 

[Nightstrike]

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

What was the question? Whether the Champion of the Light had gone over in the past. RJ answered "Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past.", so I gather that must have been what the fan asked (in this case as well).

 

(Not that it matters much, since we know what Ishy told Rand.)

 

For the sake of keeping things simple I think Champion of the Light will have to do, otherwise each poll question could become a thesis.

You'd just have to reference Ishy's conversation with Rand. No thesis. As I said, I could answer both yes and no to this poll question.

[UncleButcher1980]

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

What was the question? Whether the Champion of the Light had gone over in the past. RJ answered "Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past.", so I gather that must have been what the fan asked (in this case as well).

 

(Not that it matters much, since we know what Ishy told Rand.)

 

For the sake of keeping things simple I think Champion of the Light will have to do, otherwise each poll question could become a thesis.

You'd just have to reference Ishy's conversation with Rand. No thesis. As I said, I could answer both yes and no on this poll.

 

 

He still used it, regardless of the question, and it's used commonly in the fandom so I think it's legitimate. I don't recall the exact words of the conversation between Rand and Ishmael, but I think it's clear enough what the poll is about and I'm comfortable with it, it has a few votes so I don't want to change it now.

[Nightstrike]

He still used it, regardless of the question, and it's used commonly in the fandom so I think it's legitimate. I don't recall the exact words of the conversation between Rand and Ishmael, but I think it's clear enough what the poll is about and I'm comfortable with it, it has a few votes so I don't want to change it now.

The fan probably used it in the question, since it was answered that way ("Yes,..."). I hope everybody who answers the poll are aware of what led you to ask the question.

[Shaidar]

Another possibility.

 

The Dragon turned to the Shadow in the past and on other worlds, but then the Wheel conspired to kill him before the DO could use him to achieve final victory.

 

The result? Trollocs or other shadow creatures overran the world, and mankind vanished, but the DO there remained imprisoned in perpetuity. The focus of the struggle shifted to other worlds.

 

PS. Note in particular the "test" administered to Rand by the Borderland rulers. A dark Dragon cannot be allowed to live; extinction is preferable.

[Suttree]

As far as I know, RJ has said that LTT/Rand's soul would never be female, that there was a female champion (or the possibility of a female champion) and, if my memory serves me correctly, that that female champion was Ameresu.

I haven't read that. I have read quotes where he said that the Dragon is always male.

 

What RJ said on this topic was:

 

Thus Spake the Creator - The Dragon

 

If the Wheel needs a female Dragon, then it would weave in *insert female dragon name here*. Probably because of the blank faces he was getting he then added, you can find her in the scene where Mat blows the Horn...

 

this is a tricky one though do to a couple conflicting statements...

[Nightstrike]

I know some notable Dragonmounters seriously distrust "thus spake the creator".

 

Brandon said this:

Darth Andrea on Twitter - 20 January 2011

Odd question, is it possible in the WoT universe, for there to have been a world where the Dragon was a woman?

Brandon

RJ said that gender was a 'soul attribute.' Meaning, souls were reborn as the same gender. [For more info about the possibility of a 'female Dragon', see here and here.]

[Vermillion]

I will say that RJ off the cuff was obviously not perfect even regarding his own world. The final say comes down to the notes and Team Jordan if they ever expose the workings of the Dragon/CoL now that RJ is dead. To me the public mention of there being a female dragon and the fact that the dragon is always male and the same soul doesn't leave much room outside of conflict.

[Nightstrike]

Let me quote two notable Dragonmounters on "thus spake the creator":

 

Posted 16 April 2009 - 04:31 PM

Luckers:

As a final note--though i actually agree with pretty much everything said--i feel the need to again point out the dangers of relying on "Thus Spake the Creator". It's unsourced--and worse, paraphrased. Meanings have been altered, and at times even its own author seems confused to what he is referring.

 

It's fine for casual use, but its not to be used for actual proof.

 

Posted 16 April 2009 - 05:51 PM

Luckers:

The Souls of Shadowspawn

As for "Thus Spake the Creator"--go find the real quote. If it's real it's out there. If it's not out there, let it go. You don't have a leg to stand on sustaining an unsourced quote in contradiction to logic based on statements from the text.

 

Posted 23 March 2009 - 02:37 AM

Luckers

The first dragon.

I'm sorry, i don't trust Thus Spake the Creator--its unsourced, often contradicts itself, and I've found several cases of where the author's paraphrasing of one of RJ's answers has changed the meaning.

Posted 30 August 2008 - 08:08 AM

Luckers

The Horn of Valere

Thus spake the creator is an unsourced--and frequently inaccurate website.

 

Posted 16 April 2009 - 12:48 AM

The Souls of Shadowspawn

Robert Alex Willis:

Of course, if you don't trust "Thus spake the Creator" (and I don't blame you if you don't), then we have zero confirmed soul destroying methods.

 

So, that leaves us with 3 REAL quotes that tells us the dragon is always male.

 

(Was it three? Let me check again...)

 

Maybe it's just two, since I don't think this counts:

 

CNN Chat 12 December 2000

 

Question from Jonan: Mr. Jordan, is it possible that in another Age, another Turning of the Wheel, that saidar could be tainted instead of saidin? This relates to the Female Dragon Theory.

 

Robert Jordan: That is not something I intend to explore.

[Suttree]

@Nightstrike

 

Just to be clear are you implying that someone completely fabricated that answer from RJ? The statement is really not that ambiguous or even open to interpretation. As I said there are more than a couple conflicting statements on this topic in general.

 

You want something besides Thus Spake The Creator? Fine.

 

Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting

 

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes"...

[Nightstrike]

@Nightstrike

 

Just to be clear are you implying that someone completely fabricated that answer from RJ? The statement is really not that ambiguous or even open to interpretation. As I side there are more than a couple conflicting statements on this topic in general.

Since we have 2 quotes saying one thing, and 1 quote saying another - from a source that has been called unreliable by the one who was voted greatest WoT geek, among others, then something must be wrong. So I'll go with the first two quotes.

 

Might I also add that those weren't his exact words (the "thus spake..."), it was clearly paraphrased.

[Suttree]

@Nightstrike

 

Just to be clear are you implying that someone completely fabricated that answer from RJ? The statement is really not that ambiguous or even open to interpretation. As I side there are more than a couple conflicting statements on this topic in general.

Since we have 2 quotes saying one thing, and 1 quote saying another - from a source that has been called unreliable by the one who was voted greatest WoT geek, among others, then something must be wrong. So I'll go with the first two quotes.

 

How about the one I just added above?

[Nightstrike]

Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting

 

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes"...

Take on his role, that' another thing. I don't doubt that. But you cut the rest of what he said - the most important part!

[Suttree]

Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting

 

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes"...

Take on his role, that' another thing. I don't doubt that. But you cut the rest of what he said - the most important part!

 

Hence conflicting...a different person taking on the role is a different CoL no?

 

Rest of the sentence

 

then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

 

Trust me my mind has been changed on some points during the course of this discussion, all I'm really saying is you cant close the door on different interpretations.

[Nightstrike]

This is the whole quote:

Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting

 

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

RJ: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul...is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

There's some paraphrasing when the recorder was off (and I don't doubt others might take on his role to some extent when the Dragon soul is turned). Then RJ said that the Dragon reborn will always be male.

 

Hence conflicting...a different person taking on the role is a different CoL no?

One could say so (Ishy would disagree), but that was not what Ishy talked with Rand about. So it doesn't mean that Ishy lied to Rand.

[Terez]

I will say that RJ off the cuff was obviously not perfect even regarding his own world. The final say comes down to the notes and Team Jordan if they ever expose the workings of the Dragon/CoL now that RJ is dead. To me the public mention of there being a female dragon and the fact that the dragon is always male and the same soul doesn't leave much room outside of conflict.

It's actually pretty easy to see how the apparent contradiction came about. The report about *insert name here* was obviously paraphrased - I explained my idea on how it probably went down in an earlier post:

 

So, Rand is always the Champion. At first when RJ was asked about the female Dragon, he said he never intended to explore that. And then I think he realized that the women were annoyed that a woman could never be the savior of mankind, so he threw in the hero seen at Falme, whoever she was. From RJ's perspective, I'm thinking he figured that being the savior of mankind was a job no sane person would actually want, so he didn't see it as being terribly sexist that it was always a man. I think he felt the same way about soldiering for the most part, as it made clear time and again in Rand's approach to dealing with everything from Deira to the Maidens, and even Lanfear. And then you have Elayne's Guards.

I don't believe that RJ actually said that *insert name here* would be a 'female Dragon'. I think that he was saying this person could play a very important role, but his idea was that the Dragon soul was always the Champion of the Light. But the reporters decided to equate that with 'female Dragon'. I'm saying this based on a whole hell of a lot of research into the RJ interviews - after a while you start to understand how things go. For example, I seriously don't trust one particular report that was on Thus Spake, but I found it documented and dated on rasfw-rj. The report was obviously given in good faith, but there were a few contradictory details, and it was very easy to see how careless reporting might have led to those contradictions. So it has little to do with Thus Spake really, and more to do with each individual reporter. What was so bad about Thus Spake was that all of the reports were thrown together with no attributions so it was very difficult to tell the difference between a good report and a bad one - paraphrased, or verbatim? - and it was also difficult to date certain quotes where the date was very, very important.

 

I was able to find (with the help of Marie Curie) about 90% of the original sources for Thus Spake. Some of the reports that were there are very good reports. Others, not so much.