Forsaken Reminder

[Vambram]

I might agree with you, but Aginor was second only to Lews Therin and Ishmael. He was also quite intelligent, he was a biologist. Are you really going to disagree with Brandon's 90% chance?

If Sanderson wants to put forward some evidence, we'll take his views into consideration. Saying "probably this" isn't a compelling argument no matter who it comes from.

 

 

What about if it was RJ who said that? Would that be a compelling argument to you?

 

 

[Mordaunt]

This is all a bit silly. It doesn't really matter what the author intends, it's how a reasonable reader interprets it and reasonable readers interpret it (without additional study) as Aginor burning up due to his greed.

[Terez]

Yes, because that's not in the books that we have.

It is, if you read the passage correctly. It's also verified in the BWB. (This is quite aside from what Brandon said.) The stubborn insistence otherwise doesn't change the fact.

 

There's another hint to OP overdose in the next chapter

Is there? What's that? The 'greed' thing was already addressed.

[MarkDiLillo]

It's kind of funny how upset Terez gets when people don't agree with her interpretation of what happened in a minor part of a fantasy novel that was intentionally written to be ambiguous.

[FarShainMael]

Forsaken Wrap Up Reminder

Alive

 

Cyndane

Demandred

Graendal

Moghedian

Moridin

 

Dead

Aginor

Asmodean

Aran'gar

Balthamel

Be'Lal

Ishamael

Lanfear

Mesaana(brain dead)

Osan'gar

Rahvin

Sammael

Semirhage

 

According to Egwene's dream of the Towers, there should be 6 forsaken left. One of these falls and then rises higher than all the others. Who might number 6 be? are we to expect Mesaana to be revived somehow?

[chuckievi]

Mesaana was still alive and in control of her faculties at the time Eggy had the dream. So she would be the 6th.

[Suttree]

Both of those examples were cases where they intentionally suicided by drawing as much of the OP as they possibly could. If Aginor accidentally just slightly went over his limit it is feasible that there would be no mass desctruction.

 

But we have the quote from RJ saying Aginor was seeking the eotw so he could use saidin without the DO knowing. After the struggle the eye is completely used up. That has to have been a great deal more of the power than Aginor would normally use on his own...

[Terez]

It's kind of funny how upset Terez gets when people don't agree with her interpretation of what happened in a minor part of a fantasy novel that was intentionally written to be ambiguous.

It's kind of funny when people can't tell the difference between my interpretation and something that has been verified both by the BWB and Brandon.

[MarkDiLillo]

Both of those examples were cases where they intentionally suicided by drawing as much of the OP as they possibly could. If Aginor accidentally just slightly went over his limit it is feasible that there would be no mass desctruction.

 

But we have the quote from RJ saying Aginor was seeking the eotw so he could use saidin without the DO knowing. After the struggle the eye is completely used up. That has to have been a great deal more of the power than Aginor would normally use on his own...

 

Well, yes...Rand was using it up too. We see from experience in the later books that a Well doesn't need to be used all at once and can be drawn from anytime you want at any intervals. So, Rand tapping into the Eye and using it up is what spurred Aginor to keep drawing as much as he could so that he could get as much use out of it as he could. What he wanted to do with the power from the Eye is really completely unexplained so there are about a dozen theories out there that can fit this. The end result though is that Aginor, consumed by his greed, blew himself up trying to outdraw Rand in the OP from the Eye.

 

Only RJ knows for sure. Unless he wrote down or mentioned exactly what happened to someone else and they just haven't shared it with everyone yet.

[Cybertrolloc]

While being evangelically anti-packrat, unfortunately my EotW is somewhere in my packed pile of books (irony)...so the clue I'm thinking of is seen in description of area(s) Aginor and Rand are in pre and post with comparison to prologue. Was discussed on old boards. My explanation is Rand takes control of Eye, Aginor loses whatever buffering it gives and goes critical. (Yes the early books while well done don't work well with later explanations of how things work--I can live with it. It's why I don't try often to explain things pre-tSR with post-tSR detail, and there's a few things in tSR that don't make much sense as written either.) Old discussion of this might be here...but I think it's on the previous board.

 

So I'll bow out and go back to the original list.

 

Bathengar: fine.

Be'lal: fine.

Dem: see QotW on "uber-Forsaken." We know he's in control somewhere.

Graendal: fine unless ToM suggests else-wise (don't have).

Ishy: probably focus more on what he's doing lately.

Cynfear: not much known lately. Missing pieces from earlier. Check her WH PoVs, there's less there that's certain than you suggest.

Mesanna: not Dem, we know some just pieces around the edge missing (i.e. Suian's deposing, Rand's kidnapping).

Rest: ok on what's given I guess.

 

Maybe on the dead ones see what they might have in motion still (probably little worthwhile at this point, but never know). Dead forsakens' assets tend to get grabbed by another after all, but this isn't always the case.

[Mr Ares]

I might agree with you, but Aginor was second only to Lews Therin and Ishmael. He was also quite intelligent, he was a biologist. Are you really going to disagree with Brandon's 90% chance?

If Sanderson wants to put forward some evidence, we'll take his views into consideration. Saying "probably this" isn't a compelling argument no matter who it comes from.

What about if it was RJ who said that? Would that be a compelling argument to you?

No. The books are the primary canon, if what is said outside the books disagrees with what is in the books then there must be an explanation or it is wrong and the books are right. If RJ gave an answer backed up by an argument, by some evidence, that would be different. If he just said it with no argument, nothing to back him up, then he is entitled to his opinion, but it is no more correct than anyone elses. (Of course, RJ had the ability to add to the canon, so he could, and now Sanderson can, make his opinions canonical facts. It hasn't happened in this case though.)

 

Yes, because that's not in the books that we have.

It is, if you read the passage correctly.

Correctly, meaning "the way I read it". Interesting use of the word.

It's also verified in the BWB.

The BWB is only semi-canon - that is, only canon where it doesn't conflict with the main canon (the books). If you accept that your interpretation is correct, then the BWB is correct for supporting it. But if we say that your interpretation is wrong, then the evidence in the BWB conflicts with the evidence of the books, and therefore the BWB is wrong. It only supports you if we accept that you are right to begin with, but if your reading is felt to be in conflict with the stated facts it is wrong, no matter if the BWB supports you. So neither Sanderson's opinion nor the BWB is capable of changing the facts as stated in the books, and therefore it comes down to the simple question of what do we think the books say?

[FarShainMael]

Mesaana was still alive and in control of her faculties at the time Eggy had the dream. So she would be the 6th.

 

Good point. So, is she due a miraculous recovery, as per Egwene's dream?

 

Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground - but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all.

[MasterAblar]

Mesaana was still alive and in control of her faculties at the time Eggy had the dream. So she would be the 6th.

 

Good point. So, is she due a miraculous recovery, as per Egwene's dream?

 

Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground - but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all.

 

That was probably Ishamael/Moridin.

[FarShainMael]

Mesaana was still alive and in control of her faculties at the time Eggy had the dream. So she would be the 6th.

 

Good point. So, is she due a miraculous recovery, as per Egwene's dream?

 

Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground - but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all.

 

That was probably Ishamael/Moridin.

 

Moridin has already been mentioned as one of the surviving FS.

[MasterAblar]

Mesaana was still alive and in control of her faculties at the time Eggy had the dream. So she would be the 6th.

 

Good point. So, is she due a miraculous recovery, as per Egwene's dream?

 

Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground - but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all.

 

That was probably Ishamael/Moridin.

 

Moridin has already been mentioned as one of the surviving FS.

 

Ok, maybe I'm just being slow but:

 

Cyndane(Lanfear)

Mesaana

Graendal

Moghedien

Demandred

Moridin(Ishamael)

 

When Egwene has the dream these 6 are alive, correct?

Before the end of the dream one of the towers nearly falls to the ground, but then rises tallest of all, which suggests Moridin.

Then at the end of the dream 6 are standing which are the ones I have listed.

 

Did I miss something?

[FarShainMael]

The thing is that Mesaana's mind has been destroyed, leaving her alive but less than a child mentally. This sounds very much like 'collapsing most of the way to the ground'. Can she be said to be still standing ATM?

 

At the time of the dream, Moridin is very much alive. We haven't seen him experience any similar fall, yet. It could be that Rand's epiphany will have brought him down, but will he be turned to the Light, or what?

[MasterAblar]

The thing is that Mesaana's mind has been destroyed, leaving her alive but less than a child mentally. This sounds very much like 'collapsing most of the way to the ground'. Can she be said to be still standing ATM?

 

At the time of the dream, Moridin is very much alive. We haven't seen him experience any similar fall, yet. It could be that Rand's epiphany will have brought him down, but will he be turned to the Light, or what?

 

Sure Moridin is all fine at the time of the dream. But at the beggining of Egwene's dream there are 13 towers not 6, and the tower falls and rises back up before the end of the dream, so I take that to mean that whoever is represented by the falling tower has already fallen and risen back up. And the best choice for that is surely Moridin, having already died.

 

The six towers standing at the end seem to be a representation of the current situation of the forsaken, and the dream seems to basically be a recap of how all 13 have fared.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Sure Moridin is all fine at the time of the dream. But at the beggining of Egwene's dream there are 13 towers not 6, and the tower falls and rises back up before the end of the dream, so I take that to mean that whoever is represented by the falling tower has already fallen and risen back up. And the best choice for that is surely Moridin, having already died.

 

Nope. From the book:

 

“All was dust around [Egwene], and thirteen black towers rose in the distance beneath a tar-like sky. One fell, and then another, crashing to the ground. As they did, the ones that remained grew taller and taller. The ground shook as several more towers fell. Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground—but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all.

 

Boldface mine. Ishamael was the fourth Forsaken to be defeated. In this dream, two towers fall, and then we have "several," which refers to not less than three. That's at least five towers falling before the tower which nearly falls and then rises back highest. Not enough Forsaken had been humbled by the time of Ishamael's defeat for the tower to refer Ishamael.

[MarkDiLillo]

Sure Moridin is all fine at the time of the dream. But at the beggining of Egwene's dream there are 13 towers not 6, and the tower falls and rises back up before the end of the dream, so I take that to mean that whoever is represented by the falling tower has already fallen and risen back up. And the best choice for that is surely Moridin, having already died.

 

Nope. From the book:

 

“All was dust around [Egwene], and thirteen black towers rose in the distance beneath a tar-like sky. One fell, and then another, crashing to the ground. As they did, the ones that remained grew taller and taller. The ground shook as several more towers fell. Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground—but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all.

 

Boldface mine. Ishamael was the fourth Forsaken to be defeated. In this dream, two towers fall, and then we have "several," which refers to not less than three. That's at least five towers falling before the tower which nearly falls and then rises back highest. Not enough Forsaken had been humbled by the time of Ishamael's defeat for the tower to refer Ishamael.

 

Who do you suggest the tallest tower represents then?

 

The only one that could possibly see to fit the description is Lanfear if you look at it the way you are. I have my doubts about this referring to her though.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Probably Lanfear, but Mesaana, Graendal, Aginor, and Moghedien are all potential candidates so far because they've been severely defeated in some way but not balefired. I would include Sammael, except that we have it that he's "toast."

[MarkDiLillo]

Probably Lanfear, but Mesaana, Graendal, Aginor, and Moghedien are all potential candidates so far because they've been severely defeated in some way but not balefired. I would include Sammael, except that we have it that he's "toast."

 

Your reasoning is sound, but I am going to stick to the Moridin theory. I'm thinking that you are reading into the details too much when the dream is obviously supposed to be referring to Moridin. Could be wrong, but he seems to fit things the best.

 

I can see Moridin not being the tallest tower simply because he may not end up as a pure bad guy by the time this thing ends (merging with Rand, etc.), but I really can't see any of the other toppled Forsaken overcoming Demandred at the end. Lanfear could kill Rand in the next book I suppose and somehow in that process escape her mind trap. But the big problem is that there really isn't that much time left for all of the other Forsaken to rise above the others. Unless they rise up for a brief couple chapters before they are defeated?