Forsaken Reminder

[enak101]

Forsaken Wrap Up Reminder

 

Aginor-Burned to ash at the eye of the world by Rand. Revived as Osan'gar. Osan'gar is presumed dead attacked by Elza who thought she was killing Dashiva a proxy of Osan'gars. The attack was not specified as balefire but one of egwene's visons suggests he will not return.

 

Asmodean-Lightning struck by Rahvin. Rand then balefires Rahvin resulting in the undoing of Asmodean's death. Later he is killed by Graendal presumably by balefire. Although probably not neccesarry as the dark one wouldn't have wanted him back imo.

 

Balthamel-Was killed by the green man at the eye of the world by exploding from fungi and plants growing inside of him. He was later ressurected as Aran'Gar. The body is female but 'he' still channels saidin. While at Natrim's burrow he is balefired by Rand using the choden kal.

 

Be'Lal-While fighting Rand in a swordfight inside the heart of the stone. Be'Lal is then balefired by Moirane who snuck up on him.

 

Demandred-Little is known of Demandred, he has spoken to the Dark one about becoming nae'blis. He allied with Mesaana and Semirhage. He is following the orders of Moridin. Nothing else is known of his plans except that he has ordered the death of Rand at least once. Demandred is not Mazrim Taim, this has been stated by Robert Jordan. He was at the cleansing of Saidin and was almost killed by Rand's guards. Later at the chosen meeting in TAR, he is told Rand is not to be harmed while Mat and Perrin are to be killed. It is hard to even take an educated guess at this time of his alias or location.

 

Graendel-It is not known whether Graendel is still alive or not. She has failed several missions including causing Rand anguish and killing Perrin. She was punished by Shaidar Haran.

 

Ishamael-First known as Ba'alzamon, he was very mad and the fiery eyes were probably the last stages of using the true power to much. Saa is when the black dots flicker across the eyes but eventually from his addiction it would have reached that. A reason he might have went insane is because he wasn;t even sleeping. He wasn't sealed properly. He visited Lews Therin after the sealing in person and used the power. After his full release he hunts the 3 ta'veren boys in their dreams until he is sure Rand is it. He battles rand twice. Once at the eye of the world and another at Falme. He is killed by Rand with Callandor by stabbing him. He is then ressurected as Moridin. He is nae'blis and the only one allowed to use the true power. At shadar logoth when rand is fighting Sammael both of them shoot balefire at Mashadar at the same time and they get this strange link.He controls cyndane(lanfear) and

Moghedian with mindtraps. It appears he can hear the commands of the dark one without being at Shayol Ghul.

 

Lanfear-Lews Therin's lover, the human who made the bore into the dark one's prison. She falls into the twisted doorway ter'angreal which melts and presumably kills Lanfear but Moiraine does survive. She is then ressurected as Cyndane. She is mindtrapped by Moridin as Cyndane. After Rand's epiphany he finds Cyndane in a dream in distress. She begs him to help and apoligizes for everything, she is then dragged out of the dream by her torturer who is probably Moridin. It is not known whether the dream was real and whether she was forced to do it. Cyndane is in a mindtrap anyway, I thought that would stop things like asking for help.

 

Mesaana-After being released from the bore not too much is known.Shaidar Haran punishes her for not following orders and not being at the battle at Shadar Logoth. Mesaana plans an attack on a meeting in TAR against Egwene, the wise ones and the seafolk. Egwene fractures her mind during this. She is not dead but she is completely useless.

 

Moghedian-After her release Nyneave manages to best her in the power but she escapes before being killed. She is linked to the supergirls with an a'dam. She is finally freed by Aran'Gar she is then tortured and then she gets a mindtrap used on her. Nothing is seen of her after the meeting in TAR.

 

Rahvin- Rahvin was balefired by Rand in Caemlyn.

 

Sammael- Sammael was consumed by Mashadar in shadar logoth and has not been seen since. His soul was taitned by Mashadar so he could not be brought back, although RJ said he could be born again. So it is presumed the soul becomes pure in the afterlife.

 

Semirhage- The torture master. She blasted one of rands hands off making the series more sucky. She was released by Shaidar Haran and got her hands on a domination band. She is then balefired by Rand with balefire. Rand used the true power to weave the balefire.

 

Alive

 

Cyndane

Demandred

Graendal

Moghedian

Moridin

 

Dead

Aginor

Asmodean

Aran'gar

Balthamel

Be'Lal

Ishamael

Lanfear

Mesaana(brain dead)

Osan'gar

Rahvin

Sammael

Semirhage

 

I am not sure if the brain is linked with the soul, but they could kill Mesaana and then revive her. I am just not sure if that will work. This was just for a reminder of where they all are who is still alive.

[Mr Ares]

Aginor wasn't killed by Rand (he did it to himself), and Rahvin didn't balefire Asmodean (it was lightning).

 

She is not dead but she is completely useless.

About par for the course for one of the Chosen.

[enak101]

I made some fixes.

 

From the wiki

After his release, Aginor attempted to control all of the One Power from the Eye of the World, and was instead killed by Rand Al'Thor; burned to ash as Rand wrested the One Power from him. So it makes sense that it was rand who 'burned him'.

[NitroS]

only 5 forsaken left... The lights going to have it easy

[Terez]

Aginor wasn't killed by Rand (he did it to himself)

Brandon said he was 90% sure that Rand killed Aginor.

[Mr Ares]

I made some fixes.

 

From the wiki

After his release, Aginor attempted to control all of the One Power from the Eye of the World, and was instead killed by Rand Al'Thor; burned to ash as Rand wrested the One Power from him. So it makes sense that it was rand who 'burned him'.

From EncyclopaediaWoT: "Rand begins drawing on the cord as well. Aginor says it is his, draws even more, and bursts into flame."

 

Aginor wasn't killed by Rand (he did it to himself)

Brandon said he was 90% sure that Rand killed Aginor.

Well, there's nothing in the book to indicate that. If Rand killing Aginor was what was intended, it really wasn't made clear.

[Terez]

I've always believed Rand killed him. It's not spelled out for you because Rand hasn't even admitted to himself yet that he's channeling, but it's clear enough if you read between the lines. I'm aware of EWoT's opinion, but I'm not sure why you'd pit it against Brandon's answer.

 

Edited to add quote:

 

Suddenly he felt something, saw it, though he knew it was not there to see. A glowing rope ran off from Aginor, behind him, white like sunlight seen through the purest cloud, heavier than a blacksmith's arm, lighter than air, connecting the Forsaken to something distant beyond knowing, something within the touch of Rand's hand. The rope pulsed, and with every throb Aginor grew stronger, more fully fleshed, a man as tall and strong as himself, a man harder than the Warder, more deadly than the Blight. Yet beside that shining cord, the Forsaken seemed almost not to exist. The cord was all. It hummed. It sang. It called Rand's soul. One bright finger-strand lifted away, drifted, touched him, and he gasped. Light filled him, and heat that should have burned yet only warmed as if it took the chill of the grave from his bones. The strand thickened. I have to get away!

 

"No!" Aginor shouted. "You shall not have it! It is mine!"

 

Rand did not move, and neither did the Forsaken, yet they fought as surely as if they grappled in the dust. Sweat beaded on Aginor's face, no longer withered, no longer old, that of a strong man in his prime. Rand pulsed with the beating in the cord, like the heartbeat of the world. It filled his being. Light filled his mind, till only a corner was left for what was himself. He wrapped the void around that nook; sheltered in emptiness. Away!

 

"Mine!" Aginor cried. "Mine!"

 

Warmth built in Rand, the warmth of the sun, the radiance of the sun, bursting, the awful radiance of light, of the Light. Away!

 

"Mine!" Flame shot from Aginor's mouth, broke through his eyes like spears of fire, and he screamed.

 

Away!

Aginor doesn't die until Rand manages to take the Power of the Eye away from him. Almost in the same instant, he uses the Power to transport himself to Tarwin's Gap.

[Mr Ares]

I don't see Brandon's answer as particularly compelling. It's not supported by the books. Plus, I was pitting EWoT againt the wiki. Do you have a quote saying Rand took the Power of the Eye from Aginor? Because the one you've provided says no such thing. They're both drawing on the Source, then Aginor bursts into flames and Rand leaves at almost the same instant. There's no evidence of Rand doing anything other than drawing on the Power and then Traveling.

[Terez]

Again, it's pretty clear, unless you are predisposed not to see it (as you obviously are). The paragraph before has Rand drawing the Power of the Eye away from Aginor (I'll add that in edit), and throughout the quote I gave, he is filled with more and more Power until Aginor is killed. There is certainly no evidence of Aginor overdosing or killing himself.

[Terez]

Also, from the BWB:

 

During the closing of the bore he was caught and bound just beneath the surface of the seal. As a result of his proximity to the world, he was one of the first to awaken and escape back to the world, only to find himself trapped in a body impossibly aged and withered from the grinding of the Wheel over the long years of his captivity. Because of the immortality granted by the Dark Lord, he was alive, but perhaps because of the effects of his imprisonment, his body had suffered the ravages of time. He was also one of the first to die, falling to Rand al’Thor near the Eye of the World in 998 NE.

[Terez]

I suppose there is a more middle-ground way of explaining what happened with Aginor. You could say that Rand killed him by taking away the Power of the Eye, or you could say that Aginor sealed his own fate by trying to hold on. But it's clear that there is a battle for the Power going on there, and that Rand wins. Rand isn't trying to kill Aginor, but he is trying to take the Power away from Aginor (consciously or no) just as much as Aginor is trying to hold on to it. Aginor's barely-recovering state probably balanced the fact that Rand hadn't yet reached his full potential.

[MarkDiLillo]

Seems pretty obvious to me that Aginor drew too deeply on the Eye and blew himself up. It is even mentioned later on that his greed overcame him. To think that Aginor, one of the most powerful Aes Sedai from the AoL, could lose in a duel to the death with a kid who doesn't even know he can channel yet is pretty silly. Aginor was drawing on the OP from the Eye and when Rand started to draw on it as well his greed overcame him and he tried to draw more and more so that Rand couldn't have it. The result was that he overdosed.

 

That's how I've already interpreted it at least. The entire scene is a little awkward relative to our viewpoints and understandings several books later, but I just chalk that up as it being the first book where the details of the OP hadn't been firmly defined yet.

[Mr Ares]

Again, it's pretty clear, unless you are predisposed not to see it (as you obviously are). The paragraph before has Rand drawing the Power of the Eye away from Aginor (I'll add that in edit), and throughout the quote I gave, he is filled with more and more Power until Aginor is killed. There is certainly no evidence of Aginor overdosing or killing himself.

I'd say you are only seeing what you're predisposed to see. Rand and Aginor are both drawing on the Eye. Rand draws more of the Power, Aginor does the same, Aginor bursts into flames. With no indication of Rand doing anything offensive with the Power. That there was a fight and Rand won is not in dispute. But if we were having a fight and you fell off a cliff, while it does seem a fair indication that I've won it doesn't mean I've killed you. In trying to control the Eye, Aginor overdrew and killed himself. That's at least as well supported by the evidence as your own conclusion.

[Terez]

Seems pretty obvious to me that Aginor drew too deeply on the Eye and blew himself up.

Too bad the BWB and Brandon both disagree. Aside from that, it's not consistent with any known instance of Power overdose. I think I gave the best explanation possible in my last post - beyond that, I don't really care what you guys think and I doubt anyone else does either.

 

 

It is even mentioned later on that his greed overcame him.

His greed for holding on to the Power when Rand was trying to take it from him, most likely. But I doubt Ishamael knew every detail of what happened there - RJ said that the reason Aginor went for the Eye in the first place was so that he could use the Power without the Dark One knowing what he was doing - his protection from the taint made that impossible.

 

To think that Aginor, one of the most powerful Aes Sedai from the AoL, could lose in a duel to the death with a kid who doesn't even know he can channel yet is pretty silly. Aginor was drawing on the OP from the Eye and when Rand started to draw on it as well his greed overcame him and he tried to draw more and more so that Rand couldn't have it. The result was that he overdosed.

'Overdose' is the wrong word, when obviously Rand has mostly gained control of the Eye's Power by that time. It's noted in other places in the series that losing the Power in an accidental way can burn you out or kill you. I imagine that having it taken away from you forcibly is even worse.

 

As for it not being entirely clear, again, Rand has no idea what he's doing, and it's in his POV. RJ explained it as best he could without stepping into omni.

[MarkDiLillo]

Dumbest argument ever.

[OptimusPrime]

Have to agree with Mr Ares here. Overdose, excessive channeling, call it what you want. Aginor died because he had more of the Power than he could handle.

[enak101]

I might agree with you, but Aginor was second only to Lews Therin and Ishmael. He was also quite intelligent, he was a biologist. Are you really going to disagree with Brandon's 90% chance?

[Cybertrolloc]

Yes, because that's not in the books that we have. It doesn't matter if BS had written the passage and that's his description of what he meant to write, it's only useful for us to talk about what's in most of our books. There's another hint to OP overdose in the next chapter, at least in older versions (cf the prologue)--if it wasn't changed in later versions which I don't bother with but still a possibility.

 

The wiki now says he died by tiger attack if anyone really wants to use that as a source :)

[MarkDiLillo]

I might agree with you, but Aginor was second only to Lews Therin and Ishmael. He was also quite intelligent, he was a biologist. Are you really going to disagree with Brandon's 90% chance?

 

The likely reason he said 90% chance is because he didn't know the answer for sure, but his interpretation when he read it suggested that is what happened. Unless he specifically says that RJ left notes stating otherwise, his interpretation is as good as any of ours. Terez's theory is that Rand "took the power away from him" and it killed him. Is there even any evidence in the books that this is possible? If it is, don't you think one of the greatest wielders of the OP in history would be able to easily side step an 18 year old kids attempt to do so? Especially considering the kid doesn't even know he can channel yet.

[enak101]

I thought holding too much of the power burnt out the ability to channel not burned your body to ash. I am going to read that part again :P.

[MarkDiLillo]

I thought holding too much of the power burnt out the ability to channel not burned your body to ash. I am going to read that part again :P.

 

The prologue shows LTT overdosing so badly that he burns himself up and burns a hole straight through the earth and creates Dragonmount.

[Suttree]

I thought holding too much of the power burnt out the ability to channel not burned your body to ash. I am going to read that part again :P.

 

In other instances we have Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan who drew too deeply on the power and was consumed in flame(similar to Aginor). LTT caused some sort of massive explosion, creating Dragonmount, from doing the same. Although in both of these instances there was mass destruction caused by the event, if indeed Aginor was burnt out there was very little additional damage.

[enak101]

Yes, good examples and considering aginor's strength there should have been destruction.

[MarkDiLillo]

Both of those examples were cases where they intentionally suicided by drawing as much of the OP as they possibly could. If Aginor accidentally just slightly went over his limit it is feasible that there would be no mass desctruction.

[Mr Ares]

I might agree with you, but Aginor was second only to Lews Therin and Ishmael. He was also quite intelligent, he was a biologist. Are you really going to disagree with Brandon's 90% chance?

If Sanderson wants to put forward some evidence, we'll take his views into consideration. Saying "probably this" isn't a compelling argument no matter who it comes from.