Hint from ToM to Seanchan damane resolution - theory

[noynaert@gmail.com]

The role of Fortuona and the Seanchan is probably going to be resolved by the Crystal Throne itself. Egwene had a dream where she saw Rand taking something that resembled a chair from a woman, and the woman was very angry about it. I think that Fortuona and the Crystal Throne are the most likely subject, although it would be amusing if the vision refers to Egwene herself and the thing like a chair is the Amyrlin Seat.

 

People have speculated that the Crystal Throne itself is a ter'angreal. Foruona is relying heavily on the Seanchan prophesy that the DR will bend knee to the throne, but Ishmael might have messed with their prophesies. If the prophesy is true, it seems like kind of a feeble prophesy. Fortuona has put her full faith in it meaning that the DR will submit to her, but there are so many other ways to interpret the prophesy that it takes the sport out of it.

 

There was also something that appeared to be a crystal throne among the ter'angreal at Rhuidean. I would love to see a battle of dueling thrones.

[Guest ishamael8]

I think that Elaida will most likely come upon Mat at sometime while he is visiting Tuon. Then because she always talked about keeping Rand locked up in the Tower to keep him safe until the last battle. I don't think it would be that much of a stretch for her to believe that she must keep a string tied to Mat (since he is tavern) and thereby end up bonding him. Then it would end up with Tuon finding out and becoming angry about it and demanding that it be removed until Elaida explains that it can't be. Then Mat will likely mention the part about transfering bonds and Tuon will receive the bond from Elaida because she sees some sort of personal benefit to the bond. This will all likely happen in private.

 

TL;DR Elaida bond's Mat, transfers bond to Tuon when Tuon finds out.

 

Edit: I can imagine that Tuon will agree with it because Mat is Rand's friend and it will give her some sort of edge on Rand. Maybe she thinks she can manipulate Mat through the bond into convincing Rand into something she wants?

[FollowYourMuse]

The foreshadowing of Mat being bonded is hard to ignore, how it will happen is difficult to see.

 

 

My view on the Damnae is that there are many small cracks working to destroy it.

The Suldams being able to learn to channel, and the knowledge of it, The Suldams that Elayne has said can go back to Seanchan, Tuon knowing the truth, and having been exposed to the AS, as was Tylee and Karede, Egeanin and the WO channelers that were caught some what 200 of them?

 

This I think will push the suldam to limits, I do not see the WO, shaido or not giving in or submitting because of pain as easily, They have already been pushed with the difficult AS, until recently most Damnae though they might fight actually believed in that they should be leashed. I do not see it as impossible before the LB it is a house of cards right now, It will not take much for the system to crumble.

 

Tuon is one of the characters we have not seen any growth or growing up from, she is starting to question and change things, but she still needs to grow up like many of the others seem to have.

 

 

 

I am not sure but I think Tuon's time line is still behind the rest?

[Gordar]

Sily question, but I don't remember if the chainless a'dam only limited Moghedien's ability to channel & to remove it or if it also limited her in other ways.

 

I don't think the Seanchan will accept damene without a'dam any time soon, even if Tuon does. If she openly admits she can channel & refuses to be collared, she will most likely be overthrown by someone of the high blood & it will probably lead to a massacre if people find out that sul'dam can channel. The sul'dam themselves would hardly know how to defend themselves and the damane, who dislike marath damane almost as much, if not more, than the other Seanchan, wouldn't do anything about it.

 

Still, the damane don't have to be treated like lesser beings, if they wore chainless a'dam & they were free to move around, they could lead pretty normal lives & could be called upon in times of need. The sul'dam could have access to the bracelets in those times of need and allow the damane to channel.

 

The damane could be trained in a safe environment, away from normal people, with enough sul'dam around to keep them in check while channeling.

 

The empress, may she live forever, could wear the a'dam & let someone else look after the bracelet (although that'd be very dangerous), she could simply refuse to admit she can channel or she could try to hide it.

 

Still, all of this would only be possible if the person wearing the a'dam had the freedom to move around freely. Since I'm supposed to be working, I don't have my books laying nearby, so I can't check what Moghedien was able to do when she was caught.

[Nightangel486]

It was also briefly alluded to in Aviendha's visions in Rhuidean that while Tuon was considered to be a more beneficent Empress, which could be taken to mean she was continuing to accept the idea that channelers do not need to be leashed, that she was overthrown sometime after the LB by someone with a much more ruthless attitude, leading to the progression of events in her visions.

 

Also, while it can't be known whether these visions come to pass or are averted somehow (and Light I hope they are!) in one of the visions someone says the WT has finally fallen, so in this timeline of events it won't be destroyed by the Seanchan before the LB.

 

Hopefully, this means something will happen to make Tuon come around or foil her plans to attack the WT. I also hope that perhaps Mat will play a role in preventing Tuon from being overthrown and setting off this chain of events. Aviendha's visions certainly raised a lot of questions, that's for sure!

 

EDIT: I went back to the glossary at the end of ToM to see what it said about the Towers and found this interesting tidbit:

"legend tells that in a time of dire need the Imperial Family will return to "right that which is wrong".

 

Could this mean that the Towers in Seanchan will play a role in the resolution of the damane issue? It's the only major "wrong" in their culture that I can see.

[herid]

It was also briefly alluded to in Aviendha's visions in Rhuidean that while Tuon was considered to be a more beneficent Empress, which could be taken to mean she was continuing to accept the idea that channelers do not need to be leashed, that she was overthrown sometime after the LB by someone with a much more ruthless attitude, leading to the progression of events in her visions.

 

Also, while it can't be known whether these visions come to pass or are averted somehow (and Light I hope they are!) in one of the visions someone says the WT has finally fallen, so in this timeline of events it won't be destroyed by the Seanchan before the LB.

 

Hopefully, this means something will happen to make Tuon come around or foil her plans to attack the WT. I also hope that perhaps Mat will play a role in preventing Tuon from being overthrown and setting off this chain of events. Aviendha's visions certainly raised a lot of questions, that's for sure!

 

EDIT: I went back to the glossary at the end of ToM to see what it said about the Towers and found this interesting tidbit:

"legend tells that in a time of dire need the Imperial Family will return to "right that which is wrong".

 

Could this mean that the Towers in Seanchan will play a role in the resolution of the damane issue? It's the only major "wrong" in their culture that I can see.

 

That's likely not it. BS and RJ said that there will be no major action in Seanchan. Whatever happens it will on this side of the ocean. It's also alluded to in the Dark prophecy from TGH

 

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

 

As was explained in the book the seed of the Hammer refers to Hawkwing's descendants. The fact that it says that some ancient wrong will be slayed again suggests that it will be something other than leasing of the damane (although that will certainly be resolved too).

[Stitch]

Personally I am not seeing the OP disappearing after the LB, though it would be amusing if there was a Saidar (as opposed to Saidin) contamination I dont think that will happen either. Oh and as for the dragon reborn kneeling to the crystal throne, its likely when he fell over before going to dragonmount.

 

If Fortuona decrees that marathDamane and Damane should not be leashed it would be a huge issue to the Seanchan population, is the fact that She is Empress enough to overcome thousands of years of prejudice? What of her OWN channeling? The fact that Fortuona can channel is completely different from Tuon being able to channel. For Tuon to channel is a one way ticket to being a Damane, for Fortuona it can be seen as being a holy power; She is the Empress (may she live forever) and if She channels then it might cause people to rethink the position of Damane (which WOULD destroy much of the military might of the Seanchan as well as their society) or else they could reason it away as being a special case. We can see that they deal with Rand's ability to channel in much the same way, instead of treating him as a Tsorov'ande Doon (black souled tempest - which is what they call male channelers) and killing him, they see that the Dragon Reborn MUST channel in order to face the last battle. As far as I can see, any attempt to show that Fortuona can channel must be kept as a special case (or even a secret), if it is generally known that Suldam and Damane are in fact the same, the Seanchan empire back across the sea will tear itself apart even more than it already has while the Randland Seanchan will suddenly find themselves surrounded by enemies without their single most effective weapon - or at least one with far fewer Suldam (as they run the heck away to avoid being leashed themselves or else run away unable to face the truth in the Aiel 'bleakness' fashion) and that is supposing that the other Seanchan DO make an allowance for Fortuona- perhaps they will perceive her rise to Empress as being the result of that evil power (they think those with the power will try to rule everyone, much like an Empress no?) and kill her off. Not to mention if they actually FREE the damane, they are talking about a huge number of women who can channel who have been incredibly abused, some of them will likely be like loyal dogs, others inconsolable, while others will exact murderous vengeance for their (possibly hundreds of years of) slavery, degradation and abuse - indeed another breaking of the world led by female channellers is not out of the question.

 

If Jordan + Sanderson think to gloss over that sort of problem, it will be a vast dissapointment to me.

 

As for Setalle, I think the only real enlightenment that she can offer Fortuona is that a woman can be likeable despite being able to channel - that doesnt change the political realities of the situation; no in fact the most 'useful' point that Setalle might raise with Fortuona is that stilling is an option that might be considered as a way of dealing with them - is a Damane who is stilled still a Damane? THAT is one possible way to deal with them, but if they are then healed they WOULD become Marath'Damane - so they may no longer be leashed ones after stilling, but they WOULD be those who must be leashed after being healed afterwards. Could Fortuona order all Damane and Suldam stilled? Yes I think so and i THINK that means they would no longer be Damane or MarathDamane; but if they are later healed, so long as they remain in Seanchan territory they would be MarathDamane. So perhaps being stilled could be an intermediate step from the current situation? In the future they might be willing to barely tolerate chanelers (Tear style) but that is a long (decades would be very QUICK) way off. Alternatively the leashless adam might be used as a tool to allow Damane more freedom (but then are they 'leashed ones'?) to make them able to have more normal lives and thus seem less subhuman. Either are potential LONG TERM approaches to the situation - which IMO would be unlikely to be turned around in a single normal human lifetime (though the Empress as a channeler may have a longer life than normal).

[PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro]

About the 'two must be as one'.. There are a number of ideas about what this might mean, and someone even suggested that they may all be correct (kudos to them). One thing, though. Rand is ready to move, even though he says he still needs info on how to actually close the Bore. If the Aelfinn answer refers to anything to do with Randland's political geography or relations with other cultures, then it's likely it has already happened.

 

This is only a feeling, and I have no evidence to back it up, but I've always believed 'the two must be as one' as being a reuniting of men and women channelers, a joining of Ashaman and Aes Sedai or a return to AOL Aes Sedai, if you prefer.

 

Oh and as for the dragon reborn kneeling to the crystal throne, its likely when he fell over before going to dragonmount.

 

Hahahaha nice one stitch. I think this is tampering with the prophecies by the Seanchan, and will not come to pass.

[Stitch]

It is some sort of tampering true (it isnt present in the local version - and they had no reason to remove a line about a crystal throne since they didn't know what it was) but it could be the result of adding an additional prophecy to the script because some damane (or one of the Seanchan Aes Sedai in their pre-leashing days) had the foretelling. Personally I think it WAS a true prophecy, but that it doesn't mean that Rand will submit to the crystal throne at all (not happening - sorry bug heads) - instead I think that prophecy has come as close to fulfillment as it will. UNLESS of course it is something about the peace of the Dragon - which it may well be (but I still dont see him acknowledging Fortuona as his superior... heck I am not sure about him acknowledging ELAYNE as his superior! And certainly not Egwene)

[PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro]

It is some sort of tampering true (it isnt present in the local version - and they had no reason to remove a line about a crystal throne since they didn't know what it was) but it could be the result of adding an additional prophecy to the script because some damane (or one of the Seanchan Aes Sedai in their pre-leashing days) had the foretelling. Personally I think it WAS a true prophecy, but that it doesn't mean that Rand will submit to the crystal throne at all (not happening - sorry bug heads) - instead I think that prophecy has come as close to fulfillment as it will. UNLESS of course it is something about the peace of the Dragon - which it may well be (but I still dont see him acknowledging Fortuona

as his superior... heck I am not sure about him acknowledging ELAYNE as his superior! And certainly not Egwene)

 

Guess it may be something as simple as Rand paying respect to the station of Empress by kneeling before her throne.

[Gordar]

Alternatively the leashless adam might be used as a tool to allow Damane more freedom (but then are they 'leashed ones'?) to make them able to have more normal lives and thus seem less subhuman. Either are potential LONG TERM approaches to the situation - which IMO would be unlikely to be turned around in a single normal human lifetime (though the Empress as a channeler may have a longer life than normal).

 

True, the chainless a'dam might already be too much for the Seanchan to accept, but it was the best thing I could come up with which gave the channelers some freedom (which is what most readers seem to want). Still it's probably more of a long term sollution.

 

I hope for that Fortuona will decide that she'll no longer try to capture channelers that are not within her territory & maybe let the wise ones go after a year and a day, if they promise never to return to Seanchan controlled lands. Although letting the wise ones go wouldn't even be necessary for me.

[PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro]

But as I've pointed out earlier, context isn't a reliable guide with prophetic utterances:

 

'He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one.' Does 'he' really have three hands? No of course not. It must be three of something else, context or grammar notwithstanding.

The examples aren't comparable because it's a different sort of context. Following the Aelfinn's comment, it's obvious that 'the two' refers to the two joined areas they had just mentioned. If there had been an obvious 'three' mentioned in this prophecy, then we would know what the 'three' are, but since there wasn't, we don't. But the most logical choice to Cadsuane and Min and Rand seems to be that it has to do with the fact that Rand can't use Callandor safely without two women to link with him. But as they don't even know for sure that the 'blade of light' is Callandor, they might well be wrong. The Aelfinn's prophecy is much more clear.

 

The 'none of us is the author' comment is just ridiculous, because it throws logic out completely. In that case, we might as well not discuss things at all.

 

I'm not sure if we should, in all instances apply logic to a fantasy series, but I will agree that 'none of us is the author' does seem to be a cop out, if you like.

 

I don't at all see where it is obvious that 'the two' refers to the two joined areas in the Aelfinn's answer. I said before that I have no evidence for my interpretation of the comment, but I may have to revisit that by my belief that the Finns wouldn't repeat themselves here. They had already told Rand that it was necessary for the 'east and south, north and west' to be as one, and this leads me to believe that 'the two must be as one' may very well mean something else. You even say so yourself, Terez, directly after by stating that, quote, 'If there had been an obvious 'three' mentioned in this prophecy, then we would know what the 'three' are, but since there wasn't, we don't.'

 

As I speculated earlier, I think this means that men and women channelers must reunite fully. The books even say that the best results with the Power were achieved by men and women working together.

 

Mystica, I'm not sure if Terez' 'attacks', as you put it are personal. Terez has been at this for a while, and I take into account that she hails from Theoryland, where very few holds are barred. Definitely sarcastic, but not personal. Being a Pastafarian, I can tell you all about personal attacks by being slammed by creationists for atheism or considered a nutjob for believing that a bowl of food created the earth