Shayol Ghul / Pit of Doom

[mb]

It seems to me that Shayol Ghul was formerly the place of the Collam Daan.

 

Like another poster, the Drilling I take changed the topography of the place.

 

First several pages of guide's Chapter 4 seem to confirm these.

[rand4747]

the mountain was probably formed at the time of the drilling, so it would have still been an island then but with the mountain forming on it. Then with the breaking it became as it was, the seas vanishing and it becomming a barron wasteland.

[Smiley73]

@ herid

that make sense, demandred would not have known if the island had been moved there, he was in deep sleep during the breaking. maybe the thinness in the pattern was not created at V'saine but rather somewhere else in the pattern (the island paradise). Basically I'm thinking that the Bore was drilled from Collaam Daan but the thinness ended up somewhere else in the pattern

[herid]

@ herid

that make sense, demandred would not have known if the island had been moved there, he was in deep sleep during the breaking. maybe the thinness in the pattern was not created at V'saine but rather somewhere else in the pattern (the island paradise). Basically I'm thinking that the Bore was drilled from Collaam Daan but the thinness ended up somewhere else in the pattern

Exactly. Even if a mountain was created in V'saine after the Bore was drilled but before the Breaking (which is not mentioned anywhere btw) the geography did not start changing until the Breaking. And the Breaking changed the geography so much that Demandred would have no idea what moved where when was released. That is mentioned several times.

For example,

 

“What do you know about those ruins up near the snow line? They must come from the Age of Legends.”

 

Asmodean did not even glance up the mountain. “This world is very changed from the world I . . . went to sleep in.” He sounded weary, and he shivered slightly. “What I know of what lies where, I have learned since waking.” The mournful sounds of “The March of Death” rose from his harp. “That could be what is left of the city where I was born, for all I know. Shorelle was a port.”

FoH, Ch 21

 

So when Demandred says that Shayol Ghul was "an idyllic island in a cool sea, a favorite of those who enjoyed the rustic" he definitely means the location of Shayol Ghul in Aol. And that was a different place from where Sharom and Collam Daan were located. They were in V'saine which was a major metropolis and would never qualify as a favorite vacation spot for those who enjoyed the rustic.

[Mightelove]

The Breaking has always been reminiscent of a geologic/axial Pole shift to me. Perhaps it's not that the physical location of the Bore or the Pit changed, but that the earth's crust slid over the mantle. So, the location of the Pit/Bore is the same in it's location on the earth, but the land mass located where the Pit/Bore is, changed.

 

I know that the theory is not accepted amongst the scientific community, but it would fit in swell with what happened during the Breaking. This is, after all, fiction of the fantasy sort.

[Massive]

Maybe the pattern was just naturally thinner there because nothing was going on relative to most other places in the world.

[yoniy0]

Even if a mountain was created in V'saine after the Bore was drilled

No chance of that happening. Rand's ancestors where from V'saine. If a mountain/volcano would've erupted there, I don't think Rand would ever have been born. So, I support your conclusion.

[Ogrelin]

Perhaps the planets axis got moved during the breaking or something? that would move the polar-ice ect...

 

I find it hard that the actual continets have moved in just 3000 years...normally it takes millions of years. Just picture trying to move america to where europe is today...the whole earthcrust would split into lava-seas, nothing ould be left alive.

[yoniy0]

Only the polar climate is the result of the inclination angle with respect to the plain on which the earth revolves around the sun as well as the rotation axis. Simply shifting the rotation axis might render the entire planet uninhabitable, but it won't neatly shift the polars.

[Mightelove]

I was just re-reading ToM and I noticed that Graendel sets up shop on a small island in the middle of the Aryth(?) ocean that nobody knows about......In a cave.....

 

Perhaps this was where the Bore was drilled and the island ended up where it is after the Breaking?

 

Which still sounds like a polar/axis shift to me. The crust slipping uncontrollably over the mantle of the earth and all....

[mbuehner]

I'd say its pretty clear that V'saine and the Collam Daan did NOT end up becoming the Shayol Ghul and the Pit of Doom, regardless that that was the physical location Lanfear and Beidomon were working in. If nothing else, V'saine was a major city and the center of the most advanced research facility in the world, to describe it as a place enjoyed by 'those who enjoyed the rustic' doesn't fit with that at all.

 

If that's the case, it begs the question of what is special about Shayol Ghul, and that likely has profound implications for the last book. There is a 'thinness' to the pattern making it closer to the bore (and not vice-versa I think, that's not how it was described: "Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed."). If its not the spot the AS were working in when the bore was drilled (note I didn't say 'the spot the bore was drilled' because I think that is improper), then why else is The Pit special?

 

Perhaps it is something critical to the workings of the turnings of the wheel itself (ie- not necessarily something you can point to in a single turning without seeing the larger pattern). I suspect its something important to the resolution of the series though.

[Ashaman_Axel]

I've always wondered why Elyas said to Perrin "The Pit of Doom lies south" or something like that when they were reunited in, I think Book 7 or 8... They were in Ghealdean to talk to Alliandre...

[herid]

I've always wondered why Elyas said to Perrin "The Pit of Doom lies south" or something like that when they were reunited in, I think Book 7 or 8... They were in Ghealdean to talk to Alliandre...

That was just a metaphor for the troubles south of where they were located at the time (he likely meant Masema or the Seanchan).

“The Pit of Doom lies south,” the other man called after him, “or as close to it as I expected to see below the Blight.”

-tPoD, Ch 10

[Kahsm]

The Bore is not a physical thing though. There is simply as thinness in the Pattern at Shayol Ghul that allows for it to be sensed more strongly than anywhere else.

sure, but it would still be more natural for the thinness of the pattern to be where the bore was originally made and not in some other, apparently random place.

 

I agree with the Jon Paul on this. The thinness probably existed before, but it was an irrelevant thinness because it wasn't holding anything back until the drilling of the bore removed whatever was between the DO's essence and the pattern. Here's my scientific analogy.

 

Put oil and water in a cup, cover the cup with a washcloth, and flip it upside down. Due to the surface tension of water, it will likely stay in the cup, despite the fact the washcloth has holes in it. Oil floats on water, so it will probably be on top of the water, which is ontop of the porous washcloth.

 

Now the oil is the DO's essence, the washcloth is the "pattern" and the water is... something else unnamed. Now when they created the "bore" they hallowed out something, which could be like removing all the water. If you used a pair of tweezers to make one of the holes in the washcloth larger, the water will eventually pour out, that would be drilling the bore. Remove the tweezers and the pattern springs back to normal. But now the oil sits on the washcloth. The surface tension of oil is less than water so it will start seeping through. Also, there are spots in the washcloth where the holes are larger than in other spots (washcloths aren't perfect) and more oil will pour through those spots. But it's not necessarily the spot where the hole was poked, as the washcloth is rather sturdy and sprung back to normal when you stopped poking at it. So the "bore" is not a hole (hence no physical location) it's the absence of something that used to separate the DO from the entire pattern. It's just a characteristic of the pattern that makes it thin in that spot.

 

This make any sense at all?