Aiel Attacking Aes Sedai

[Guest aaron711]

Has anyone ever looked into the Aiel that attack the one Aes Sedai(i can't remember her name off the top of my head) in Camemlyn, that cause them to try and teach Rand a lesson, that cause Rand to go to Cairien, that leads to him being imprisoned?

[Terez]

I think it was most likely Fain's Whitecloaks in disguise, but most people seem to think it was Taim's Asha'man in disguise. (And her name was Demira.)

[sfgiantsfanmike]

I partially agree with Terez here, I agree that she most likely was attack by Whitecloaks because of the use of their term for Aes Sedai, Witches, but don't necessarily think it was Fain's Whitecloaks. Other than that I cannot remember it being brought up again, anyone else know if it was ever brought up again?

[Finnssss22]

The reason most think Taim/Asha'man is because she was also warned to stay away from the Dragon Reborn and left alive, hardly something the Children would say or do.

 

I think Terez is right though, it was Fain's Children.

He was in Caemlyn at the time and fits.

[Byzantine279]

Fain does fit, what better way to deal with Rand than to get the Aes Sedai angry with him? Though it is also possible it was (normal) whitecloaks hiding under the appearance of Aiel, though I would expect them to show themselves and certainly not leave her only half dead, but perhaps they hates Rand more. Or it was a group of DF who had been ordered to do so. Separating rand was part of their master plan.

[Luckers]

I vote Taim's Asha'men--the result, splitting Rand from the Aes Sedai, is something we know Taim specifically wanted at that point in time, his men had the training to be able to inflict wounds without them being fatal, and then there is the potential channeling...

 

Specifically, Demira is walking along happily, sees a man smirk at her and--having previously ignored other smirks--randomly decides to deviate her course into the very street the ambush was layed. This reaction to the smirk very closely matches Theodrin's wilder skill to either attract or repulse men (and we know such things are the most common form that self-taught tricks take, thanks to Verin).

 

Meanwhile in addition to Demira suddenly and fortuitously deciding to walk into this trap for no reason we have the fact that at the same time a co-conspiritor warned the warders back at Demira's inn--in effect they were confident enough that Demira would randomly choose that alley for no reason and despite always taking the other path that they felt they could act on it--and it would hardly do to warn the warders only to have Demira wander blithefully past the trap, as she always had before, and had every intention of doing after.

 

Also Fain simply killed his rivals. *cough*Kisman*cough*.

[aaron11]

I always thought it was one of the wise ones that ordered them to do it. That would lead me to think that one of the wise ones are a df. Does anything in the description of these aiel lead to thinking they aren't aiel?

[herid]

I always thought it was one of the wise ones that ordered them to do it. That would lead me to think that one of the wise ones are a df. Does anything in the description of these aiel lead to thinking they aren't aiel?

the guy that stabbed Demira is described as squat. there are no short Aielmen so he was not Aiel.

 

As to who might have been behind the attack I don't think it would be Fain. It's not his MO and what would be the point from his point of view? At that point in the story he doesn't care if Rand makes friends with Aes Sedai. He simply wants to kill Rand (preferbly, personally). It could be Taim although he would have to be very careful to make sure none of the Asha'man involved are seen and recognized by anybody. and if it's Taim the people involved need not be Asha'man, any DFs would do. Presumably he has access to those. The argument that Luckers suggested about using channeling to entice Demira into an alley seems too far fetched to me. Demira stayed at the city gate for a long time before going back, so whoever attacked her could not know in advance when exactly this would happen and exactly when they could attack. so presumably her attackers simply sent one of their number to the Inn as soon as they saw her turn into the alley. they could not time it beforehand.

 

Another possibility is that it was Black Ajah. There were rumors mentioned of an Aes Sedai healing cats in Caemlyn and in the previous chapter before the attack scene Vilnar (one of Bashere's men) mentions seeing an Aes Sedai who looks Marillin Gemalphin. Coupled with the cats thing that was clearly her. Moggy must have sent her to Caemlyn in FoH (that was after Rand took Caemlyn, so Moggy knew about him being there). Driving a wedge between Aes Sedai and Rand would be just the kind of thing Black Ajah would do.

[yoniy0]

I always thought it was one of the wise ones that ordered them to do it. That would lead me to think that one of the wise ones are a df. Does anything in the description of these aiel lead to thinking they aren't aiel?

the guy that stabbed Demira is described as squat. there are no short Aielmen so he was not Aiel.

If memory serves, there was also the issue of eye color. And the fact that they used the term 'Dragon Reborn'.

[herid]

I always thought it was one of the wise ones that ordered them to do it. That would lead me to think that one of the wise ones are a df. Does anything in the description of these aiel lead to thinking they aren't aiel?

the guy that stabbed Demira is described as squat. there are no short Aielmen so he was not Aiel.

If memory serves, there was also the issue of eye color. And the fact that they used the term 'Dragon Reborn'.

I checked before posting and I didn't see any eye color references. But you are right about them using the term "Dragon Reborn". That's a good point. This is not something an Aiel would say.

[yoniy0]

I checked before posting and I didn't see any eye color references. But you are right about them using the term "Dragon Reborn". That's a good point. This is not something an Aiel would say.

That remembered face was thrust into hers, black eyes mocking, growling something she ignored as she tried to reach saidar, tried to.... Darkness closed in.

[herid]

I checked before posting and I didn't see any eye color references. But you are right about them using the term "Dragon Reborn". That's a good point. This is not something an Aiel would say.

That remembered face was thrust into hers, black eyes mocking, growling something she ignored as she tried to reach saidar, tried to.... Darkness closed in.

oops, you are quite right. I think I need to get thicker glasses.

[aaron11]

thanks guys, i'm in the middle of a reread and had just finished book 6.

[Val Mickey]

Those guys must be crazy. A non-Aiel wearing ca'dinsor in a city policed by Aiel? How do you get away with that?

[yoniy0]

Those guys must be crazy. A non-Aiel wearing ca'dinsor in a city policed by Aiel? How do you get away with that?

Quick escape: just drop the MoM when you're done (could be the reason they gave Demira so much space to cross the street to begin with), and Travel back to the BT. Oh, and if you do happen to meet Aiel just at the wrong moment, saidin might offer some consolation.

[Luckers]

The argument that Luckers suggested about using channeling to entice Demira into an alley seems too far fetched to me. Demira stayed at the city gate for a long time before going back, so whoever attacked her could not know in advance when exactly this would happen and exactly when they could attack. so presumably her attackers simply sent one of their number to the Inn as soon as they saw her turn into the alley. they could not time it beforehand.

 

 

Actually, if you look, the man spoke of this happening before Demira's warder sensed the attack, which, combined with the fact that the attackers were waiting in the alley means the attackers somehow knew that Demira would take the alleyway--despite the fact that she never did, and had no intention of doing so until being smirked at.

 

Indeed without compulsion forcing her into that alley, at that time, it makes no sense.

[yoniy0]

To be fair, Fain has his own methods of persuasion. They tend to be uncomfortable for the one being persuaded, but perhaps he's capable of more subtle work as well.

Still, I like Taim better for it.

[Luckers]

To be fair, Fain has his own methods of persuasion. They tend to be uncomfortable for the one being persuaded, but perhaps he's capable of more subtle work as well.

Still, I like Taim better for it.

 

We've never seen him display the ability to compel, despite scenes where it would have helped him, and in addition his invasive powers have alwaysed involved direct physical contact i.e. [LoC; 28, Letters], [ToM; Prologue, Destinctions]. Indeed, in situations where such skills would have availled him, he has not used them.

 

The interaction exactly matches Theodrin's self-taught skill. We have Verin's comment that this style of compulsion is the most common self-taught skill around. We have Taim, who at that time was specifically stated to be against Rand and the Aes Sedai's interaction. We have Taim's men, who were trained in the skills needed to inflict wounds without them being fatal.

 

Against that we have Fain, who has never utilized this power, we have his whitecloaks who were stated to have become sloppy and ill-disciplined--ruled by fear. We have an ambush that is pulled of perfectly, with discipline and control.

[yoniy0]

I agree with most all of your points, but Fain does have a way with rulers. He did his thing in Aridhol, with Turak, Niall, Elaida and Toram. All but Toram presumably without touch. Nor did he need to touch Rand to induce an hallucination in WH.

[Luckers]

I agree with most all of your points, but Fain does have a way with rulers. He did his thing in Aridhol, with Turak, Niall, Elaida and Toram. All but Toram presumably without touch. Nor did he need to touch Rand to induce an hallucination in WH.

 

Those illusions did not make Rand decide to suddenly turn aside from his attack, or drop his sword--there were no compulsions at all. Indeed, this is a part of what I mean by situations in which the use of such powers would have been helpful. By the same note there was the 'flies flashback' in tGH. Neither of these things actively influenced Rand's mental state--Demira's mind completely changed. She wasn't just upset at the smirk, she changed her path. If Fain could do that, why not make Rand drop his sword, or turn and run (exposing his back). Instead he made an illusion, no compulsive elements involved, just the old school diversion.

 

And I did state 'invasive powers'. The slow corruption of the rulers took weeks, this happened in an instant. The only times Fain's powers have manifested in this way they have involved direct touch. Otherwise he has used illusions and torture.

[herid]

The argument that Luckers suggested about using channeling to entice Demira into an alley seems too far fetched to me. Demira stayed at the city gate for a long time before going back, so whoever attacked her could not know in advance when exactly this would happen and exactly when they could attack. so presumably her attackers simply sent one of their number to the Inn as soon as they saw her turn into the alley. they could not time it beforehand.

 

 

Actually, if you look, the man spoke of this happening before Demira's warder sensed the attack, which, combined with the fact that the attackers were waiting in the alley means the attackers somehow knew that Demira would take the alleyway--despite the fact that she never did, and had no intention of doing so until being smirked at.

 

Indeed without compulsion forcing her into that alley, at that time, it makes no sense.

as I said, the inn seems to be pretty close to the gate. the timeline doesn't work otherwise even if one assumes your explanation. the plan of the attack would have to be put in motion after she left the gate. she stayed at the gate a long time waiting for her contact. they didn't know when she would leave and couldn't spring the warning in the inn too early.

 

Given this fact there is no need to look for convoluted explanations. The guy smirked at her to annoy her, she turned into the alley and they took an opportunity to act. also, the action takes place near the gate to the inner city so, apparently pretty close to the palace. Channeling saidin near palace where Rand might feel it would be rather risky. He expressly prohibited it:

“No! How many times do I have to say, no! If I feel a man channel in Caemlyn, I will come for you, Taim. I swear I will. And don’t think you can stay far enough from the Palace that I won’t feel it and be safe. If one of those Aes Sedai keels over dead for no reason, I will know who to blame. Mark me!”

-LoC, ch 42

 

this quote makes it somewhat unlikely those guys were Taim's men at all. Demira could have easily died. They could not be sure. Even if it was Taim's men I don't see them risking both using saidin and Demira dying near Rand.

[Luckers]

as I said, the inn seems to be pretty close to the gate. the timeline doesn't work otherwise even if one assumes your explanation. the plan of the attack would have to be put in motion after she left the gate. she stayed at the gate a long time waiting for her contact. they didn't know when she would leave and couldn't spring the warning in the inn too early.

 

Yup, that sounds about right--the timing definately indicates that the person who approached the inn was signalled when she left the gates, or else ran ahead of her--either way it makes no difference. The warning was initiated before the attack. This means they knew she would turn into the alley. Simple as that.

 

She had no intention of doing so. She'd never done so before. She did--randomly, this one, specific time, where coincidentally an ambush was waiting for her--and ambush that was in place before she made this strangely random choice.

 

Given this fact there is no need to look for convoluted explanations. The guy smirked at her to annoy her, she turned into the alley and they took an opportunity to act.

 

They 'took an opportunity'... so what you are suggesting is that they were standing around in that alleyway going 'jeeze, I'd sure like to stab Demira today. I really hope she with no reason decides to deviate her normal course and enter this alley, otherwise that dude we sent to tell people we'd attacked her will sure look foolish. Oh look, there she is. Phew!'

 

They didn't 'take an opportunity'. They were in the alley waiting for her. They knew she would take it, though they had no reason to. It is the suggestion that this occured without compulsion that is convuluted.

 

also, the action takes place near the gate to the inner city so, apparently pretty close to the palace. Channeling saidin near palace where Rand might feel it would be rather risky. He expressly prohibited it:

 

Outside the inner city is by no means 'close to the palace'. A small web would easily escape detection, even were Rand paying attention.

 

“No! How many times do I have to say, no! If I feel a man channel in Caemlyn, I will come for you, Taim. I swear I will. And don’t think you can stay far enough from the Palace that I won’t feel it and be safe. If one of those Aes Sedai keels over dead for no reason, I will know who to blame. Mark me!”

-LoC, ch 42

 

 

this quote makes it somewhat unlikely those guys were Taim's men at all. Demira could have easily died. They could not be sure.

 

Yup. Rand told Taim that if an Aes Sedai dropped dead he'd be blaimed--and these attackers made an elaborate effort to ensure Demira survived--Demira herself realises this.

[herid]

as I said, the inn seems to be pretty close to the gate. the timeline doesn't work otherwise even if one assumes your explanation. the plan of the attack would have to be put in motion after she left the gate. she stayed at the gate a long time waiting for her contact. they didn't know when she would leave and couldn't spring the warning in the inn too early.

 

Yup, that sounds about right--the timing definately indicates that the person who approached the inn was signalled when she left the gates, or else ran ahead of her--either way it makes no difference. The warning was initiated before the attack. This means they knew she would turn into the alley. Simple as that.

 

She had no intention of doing so. She'd never done so before. She did--randomly, this one, specific time, where coincidentally an ambush was waiting for her--and ambush that was in place before she made this strangely random choice.

 

Given this fact there is no need to look for convoluted explanations. The guy smirked at her to annoy her, she turned into the alley and they took an opportunity to act.

 

They 'took an opportunity'... so what you are suggesting is that they were standing around in that alleyway going 'jeeze, I'd sure like to stab Demira today. I really hope she with no reason decides to deviate her normal course and enter this alley, otherwise that dude we sent to tell people we'd attacked her will sure look foolish. Oh look, there she is. Phew!'

 

They didn't 'take an opportunity'. They were in the alley waiting for her. They knew she would take it, though they had no reason to. It is the suggestion that this occured without compulsion that is convuluted.

 

they didn't stand in the alley waiting. It's mentioned that the came around the corner. They could have been following Demira in the main street then saw her turn into the alley and ran around to cut her off. That's much easier to imagine than an elaborate scenario with using compulsion.

 

also, the action takes place near the gate to the inner city so, apparently pretty close to the palace. Channeling saidin near palace where Rand might feel it would be rather risky. He expressly prohibited it:

 

Outside the inner city is by no means 'close to the palace'. A small web would easily escape detection, even were Rand paying attention.

perhaps yes, perhaps no. Rand was confident that he could detect male channeling in the whole Caemlyn and this was near the inner city gate. of course Rand could have been overconfident but it was still a risk. Moggy found Nynaeve and Elayne in Tanchico after Elayne channeled very briefly there.

 

“No! How many times do I have to say, no! If I feel a man channel in Caemlyn, I will come for you, Taim. I swear I will. And don’t think you can stay far enough from the Palace that I won’t feel it and be safe. If one of those Aes Sedai keels over dead for no reason, I will know who to blame. Mark me!”

-LoC, ch 42

 

 

this quote makes it somewhat unlikely those guys were Taim's men at all. Demira could have easily died. They could not be sure.

 

Yup. Rand told Taim that if an Aes Sedai dropped dead he'd be blaimed--and these attackers made an elaborate effort to ensure Demira survived--Demira herself realises this.

yes, they did make an effort but it was highly risky still. Demira could have easily died. She almost did. I'm not saying that this definitely excludes the possibility of Demira's attackers being Taim's men. But it would have been a very risky endeavor if it was them because of the possibility of Demira dying. channeling on top of that would make it riskier still. I don't see it being necessary to explain the attack scene so I don't think they channeled.

[Harvster7]

Just a thought, could it be first sight of psuedo Aiel seen in epilogue of TOM? Black eyes, cadinsor etc. Bit tenuous, granted. But a possibility!

[RyanL24]

Just a thought, could it be first sight of psuedo Aiel seen in epilogue of TOM? Black eyes, cadinsor etc. Bit tenuous, granted. But a possibility!

 

I thought those were the snakes... the Aelfinn. Did I read that wrong?