Discuss the Inclusion of a Gay Character

[mikael]

... and a slightly heightened sense of fashion.

 

My brothers best friend and a friend of mine is gay, and I asked him why he dresses like a slob and he said the gay-fashion thing is a lie, lol. He is more anti-fashion then any I have ever met.

 

 

 

From Cannis Rufus (edited to include this since for some reason the name wasn't in the quote)

 

What is strange to me is that this is an issue at all. The story is about the select group of characters and their interactions and devel;opment with this metaphysical world and the insuing end of it. I do not see how the sexuality either enhances or distracts from the story. I get that people like to relate to personas in a book but then I do not define myself by my sexuality but rather my moral and ethical standing. Personally I relate to Mat not because the character flirts a lot but because the attitude and since of honor he carries towards his people. If Mat was gay I would still feel the same its Character the defines him not sexuality.

 

I believe the real issue here is that it is brought up at all. Too often I think that young people desperate to define themselves latch onto a group and seek to define themselves with that rather then look inward and understand who they are for a definition. So your gay/straight/Bi are you so narrow minded that you think every book must represent you? Or so conceited to think that any book should? And If you believe that strongly then I would recommend you start writing. Does it matter if David Copperfield grows up to be gay? No that’s not what the story is about. Just as here' date=' this is not what the story is about. [b']Looking for an issue does not make it an issue. It’s as silly as if you complained there are no heterochromia’s in the book just because you happen to be one. Then just because the author, in a fit to make a few more dollars adds it in, you want to know how it affects the grander picture of the world. Nothing personal but it doesn’t improve anything and only makes it worse, because now it’s a marketing ploy preying on insecure people that want other people to pay attention to them. Just my two cents. [/b]

 

As to CR, I fully agree and have been making the same points, especially the bolded parts.

 

 

This is so true! I can't believe I didn't realise earlier how much money they are going to make by including a gay guy 10.000 pages into the story. Finally WoT can turn a profit!

[Canis Rufus]

So because RJ said…

 

I have gay and lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven’t been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi. For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course.

 

- The Official Robert Jordan Blog, October 6, 2005

 

 

 

This is the quote you are referring to correct?

[SethBaker]

Canis - what Mark said. RJ said they're out there. It's reasonable to assume that the incidence of homosexuality in WoT is at least as high as it is in our world, since it's perfectly acceptable there. So we're talking at least 3%. Given the number of male characters we've seen in some detail (either through lengthy association with a lens character, like Nalesean or Talmanes; or through description of his family, like Wit Congar, Bael or Jur Grady) - it's become more and more absurd to believe that all of our characters are heterosexual. In light of that, it's reasonable to think that it should come up in one way or another.

 

... and a slightly heightened sense of fashion.

 

My brothers best friend and a friend of mine is gay, and I asked him why he dresses like a slob and he said the gay-fashion thing is a lie, lol. He is more anti-fashion then any I have ever met.

 

 

 

From Cannis Rufus (edited to include this since for some reason the name wasn't in the quote)

 

What is strange to me is that this is an issue at all. The story is about the select group of characters and their interactions and devel;opment with this metaphysical world and the insuing end of it. I do not see how the sexuality either enhances or distracts from the story. I get that people like to relate to personas in a book but then I do not define myself by my sexuality but rather my moral and ethical standing. Personally I relate to Mat not because the character flirts a lot but because the attitude and since of honor he carries towards his people. If Mat was gay I would still feel the same its Character the defines him not sexuality.

 

I believe the real issue here is that it is brought up at all. Too often I think that young people desperate to define themselves latch onto a group and seek to define themselves with that rather then look inward and understand who they are for a definition. So your gay/straight/Bi are you so narrow minded that you think every book must represent you? Or so conceited to think that any book should? And If you believe that strongly then I would recommend you start writing. Does it matter if David Copperfield grows up to be gay? No that’s not what the story is about. Just as here' date=' this is not what the story is about. [b']Looking for an issue does not make it an issue. It’s as silly as if you complained there are no heterochromia’s in the book just because you happen to be one. Then just because the author, in a fit to make a few more dollars adds it in, you want to know how it affects the grander picture of the world. Nothing personal but it doesn’t improve anything and only makes it worse, because now it’s a marketing ploy preying on insecure people that want other people to pay attention to them. Just my two cents. [/b]

 

As to CR, I fully agree and have been making the same points, especially the bolded parts.

 

 

This is so true! I can't believe I didn't realise earlier how much money they are going to make by including a gay guy 10.000 pages into the story. Finally WoT can turn a profit!

 

LOL

[yoniy0]

Not to open Pandora's box here, but can someone please remind me where we've seen a gay woman in tWoT who isn't a complete misandrist? Surely Galina wasn't the best RJ had to offer by way of lesbianism?

[SethBaker]

So because RJ said…

 

I have gay and lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven’t been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi. For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course.

 

- The Official Robert Jordan Blog, October 6, 2005

 

 

 

This is the quote you are referring to correct?

 

That's the one that came to mind. There's more on the topic, though.

[SethBaker]

Not to open Pandora's box here, but can someone please remind me where we've seen a gay woman in tWoT who isn't a complete misandrist? Surely Galina wasn't the best RJ had to offer by way of lesbianism?

 

I can never remember their names, but the married Windfinder that hooked up with one of Rand's Cairhienen crew.

[yoniy0]

I can never remember their names, but the married Windfinder that hooked up with one of Rand's Cairhienen crew.

See, that's not a true example, same as Moiraine and Siuan (unless there's a case to be made for her husband merely being a 'beard', but I think she actually loved him, the way a woman loves a man. Ailil also had an affair with her Lance-Captain, didn't she?). I'm looking for someone who's simply not interested in men that way, but doesn't want to kill every last one of them.

[Canis Rufus]

So because RJ said…

 

I have gay and lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven’t been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi. For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course.

 

- The Official Robert Jordan Blog, October 6, 2005

 

 

 

This is the quote you are referring to correct?

 

That's the one that came to mind. There's more on the topic, though.

 

Then please elaborate, give me the exact text you referring to.

[Hold On To The Night]

Not to open Pandora's box here, but can someone please remind me where we've seen a gay woman in tWoT who isn't a complete misandrist? Surely Galina wasn't the best RJ had to offer by way of lesbianism?

 

Arrela (sp?). Some man whose name I don't remember was described as wanting to marry her even though she "didn't like men that way". She also had a relationship to a maiden while in Malden.

[capuga]

I can never remember their names, but the married Windfinder that hooked up with one of Rand's Cairhienen crew.

See, that's not a true example, same as Moiraine and Siuan (unless there's a case to be made for her husband merely being a 'beard', but I think she actually loved him, the way a woman loves a man. Ailil also had an affair with her Lance-Captain, didn't she?). I'm looking for someone who's simply not interested in men that way, but doesn't want to kill every last one of them.

 

While a can't think of a strictly lesbian character that isn't a complete man-hater, I think the example of Ailil and the Windfinder is actually truer to what RJ envisioned. Each of them had relationships with men and women. They felt romantic feelings for each gender. And nobody viewed this as strange. It was just the normal course of the world that these women could have feelings and physical contact with either sex. Its this view point and level of acceptance that we should all be working towards.

[capuga]

So because RJ said…

 

I have gay and lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven’t been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi. For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course.

 

- The Official Robert Jordan Blog, October 6, 2005

 

 

 

This is the quote you are referring to correct?

 

That's the one that came to mind. There's more on the topic, though.

 

Then please elaborate, give me the exact text you referring to.

 

Why? The quote provided is plenty for the answer to your question as to why it could be felt that a gay (male) character was overdue.

[yoniy0]

Arrela (sp?). Some man whose name I don't remember was described as wanting to marry her even though she "didn't like men that way". She also had a relationship to a maiden while in Malden.

Arrela (and possibly Marthea) seems a good example, thanks.

[Goramier]

It's literally a reply to everyone. At the risk of oversimplifying, I still think that if someone opposes this, there are two possibilities. One, that person is a bigot, and doesn't like it because they don't want to get any homosexuality in their stories. Two, that person perceives this as some kind of PC pandering by the author in one way or another.

 

I guess that puts me into the second group.

 

If you'd read my post, you'd realize that I was not implying that you were a bigot. Without completely twisting the meaning of what I said, I don't see how you could assume that I was both replying to you and calling you a bigot. I quite plainly was not.

 

Very far from clear lol. You cited something directly from what I said, and then made a statement that I would be a bigot if I don't agree with you. I agree you didn't straight out call me a bigot but you most certainly implied it, since it followed something coming directly from what I said and since I clearly know your wrong. Just because your wrong, doesn't make me a bigot believe it or not, lol.

 

No, I'm saying that if you're one of the people in the second group, this should not be such a big deal. The author's made clear what's going on. It won't hurt the story. It might make you shake your head when you read it, since you don't like pandering/forced-PC/tokenism, but it shouldn't detract from the story for you unless you have some problem with homosexuality.

 

I wouldn't even shake my head at it. I wouldn't be offended. There are gay females and it wouldn't bother me if they had more reference to gay men, or any for that matter. That is not the point. The point is that the only "pandering" going on is by a couple of readers who are making it an issue for themselves. It is harmful to the gay community and it is using them. That is the point. It isn't about the story at all. The story is fine. I will hold it against BS if he decides to include irrelevant details (earlier I referred it it as sexual escapades) just to appease a couple of people who are using the gay community to make themselves look good.

 

I don't really care what people who have a problem with homosexuality think, just like I don't care what white supremacists or chauvinists think. RJ and Brandon both made clear how this world falls, and how it will be mentioned in AMoL. That's where the buck stops for me. I think it's overdue in the story, and RJ made it clear how the world is structured. In light of that, the fact that Brandon is making a conscious decision to include it is almost irrelevant. Brandon's motivations are not important to me unless he's actually CHANGING something. Which he's not.

 

By adding in something like that because a couple of people are pretending to be the great defenders of the gay community IS changing the story. If it is to be included on its own fine, great. I have no problem with that at all. But when a reader decideds that they are going to go on a crusade and turn a non-issue into an issue and it then finds its way into the book, thats wrong and it does change the story. If people don't like the way RJ set it up, don't read it.

 

 

This is so true! I can't believe I didn't realise earlier how much money they are going to make by including a gay guy 10.000 pages into the story. Finally WoT can turn a profit!

 

What does profit have to do with anything?

[Suttree]

If people don't like the way RJ set it up, don't read it.

 

People really need to stop saying this. The way RJ "set it up" is having gay male characters in his world. It is taken as a matter of course in his world, we just have not been in the head of one yet. Not having at least one in the series is unrealistic given all the characters we have been introduced to, especially considering how it has been represented from the female perspective. BS, with the approval of Harriet(which is all that should matter to anyone) is fleshing out this detail. No big deal, end of story.

 

 

Then just because the author, in a fit to make a few more dollars adds it in, you want to know how it affects the grander picture of the world. Nothing personal but it doesn’t improve anything and only makes it worse, because now it’s a marketing ploy preying on insecure people that want other people to pay attention to them.

 

Right up there with "the gay sexual act" as possibly the most absurd post in this entire thread. BS just trying to wrangle a few more dollars out of the WoT for Tor. That insidious marketing department is up to their evil plotting once again. Way to call them out, we can not allow them to get away with this!

[yoniy0]

You cited something directly from what I said, and then made a statement that I would be a bigot if I don't agree with you.

No, he said only a bigot would be offended by the appearance of a gay character. Since you say:

I wouldn't be offended.

You're quite clearly in the clear.

[Agitel]

Is there anything at all in this topic that shows the Sanderson is including this to appease people or anything about him being pressured into it by fans? Sanderson likes to tackle issues from all sides, whether he agrees with them or not. He seems to like to give food for thought on all sides, not lecture people on what's correct or not. We've seen a number of minor characters and their romances, so what if one where going to hear about it men liking men? We've seen heterosexual relationships, lesbian relationships, polyamorous relationships. It's being included because it's been noticeably, oddly and curiously absent; something Sanderson himself noticed and not just fans. That's not necessarily pandering or appeasement. I don't see it as being a distraction from the story, more than likely it'll just be primarily in the character's thoughts?

[mikael]

You think there´s a difference between making dollars and making a profit?

[sleepinghour]

While a can't think of a strictly lesbian character that isn't a complete man-hater, I think the example of Ailil and the Windfinder is actually truer to what RJ envisioned. Each of them had relationships with men and women. They felt romantic feelings for each gender.

The Windfinder (Shalon) was apparently just lonely and missing her husband:

 

The Grace of the Light be upon her, she regretted Ailil, but she had been so lonely that she sailed too far before she knew it. With Harine, there were no evening talks over honeyed wine to soften the long months parted from her husband Mishael. At best, many more months would pass before she could lie in his arms.

--Winter's Heart

[capuga]

While a can't think of a strictly lesbian character that isn't a complete man-hater, I think the example of Ailil and the Windfinder is actually truer to what RJ envisioned. Each of them had relationships with men and women. They felt romantic feelings for each gender.

The Windfinder (Shalon) was apparently just lonely and missing her husband:

 

The Grace of the Light be upon her, she regretted Ailil, but she had been so lonely that she sailed too far before she knew it. With Harine, there were no evening talks over honeyed wine to soften the long months parted from her husband Mishael. At best, many more months would pass before she could lie in his arms.

--Winter's Heart

 

True, but she could have found comfort in the arms of another man. This is different from the White Tower pillow friends who don't have access to anything but other girls. She had options to ease the loneliness and ended up with a woman. And nobody thought this was unnatural.

 

Also, note that she didn't reveal the truth to Cadsuane for a long time because she did not want her husband to find out she had an affair. Obviously, her husband would not view her actions as any different whether they occured with a man or a woman. That shows equality in how these people view same sex relations.

[Terez]

This has nothing to do with the point I made so I hope this wasn't a reply to what I said. If this was a reply to what I said which it sounds like it is, then you and Terez really need to learn how to read what people are saying and reply without completely changing what was being said and making up an argument that the person your replying to was not making....and of course, we have another label being tossed around. Darn all those who don't fall in line with our thoughts! They are bigots! lol. The only "pandering" going in is the consistant and complete changing of what was said to fit it into something you can attack.

I have already addressed your accusations of wordtwisting and I have clearly shown you to be wrong. Are you going to address my actual rebuttal to your post?

[Canis Rufus]

So because RJ said…

 

I have gay and lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven’t been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi. For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course.

 

- The Official Robert Jordan Blog, October 6, 2005

 

 

 

This is the quote you are referring to correct?

 

That's the one that came to mind. There's more on the topic, though.

 

Then please elaborate, give me the exact text you referring to.

 

Why? The quote provided is plenty for the answer to your question as to why it could be felt that a gay (male) character was overdue.

 

 

To you perhaps to me this Quote is just RJ stating that yes there are gay people in this world but that’s not really the story is it? See that’s the point I am trying to make. So a character is gay so what. My point is people who keeping trying to make an issue were there isn’t one, well that makes THEM the problem, not the issue. If the story had a gay character and that was important to the plot then it would have been part of the story by now don’t you think? RJ was making a side comment not a declaration. You can wish beans where steak but at the end of the day your having beans.

 

 

The point is it doesn’t matter to anyone except those that wish people paid them a little more attention. Which ironically, if they defined themselves with something other than where they park their preverbal truck, people would likely care more about them. It is a non issue; forcing it into the story for the sake of anything other than the story is classless and this isn’t a story about sex. Argue and complain all you want it just baffles me that this is even here. You want some good stories about being gay or becoming gay or discovering your gay heck I even have a book about a guy who thinks he’s gay only to find out in the end he’s straight, but you see those books are dealing with that issue. That is the point of those books. This is a book about fighting a “Dark One” with a magic horn and sword of glass……. I really don’t see where they wind up at the end of the day effects the story for anyone other than someone desperate to find an argument for how they are under appreciated in society. Truly I can list many aspects that are “oddly” missing but then they wouldn’t have any real bearing on the story either. Sanderson is pandering, if it makes you happy to not see it that way, well then that is what he wanted, me I’ll call a duck a duck.

 

 

 

 

Sorry to Seth, as it seems Mark is speaking for you, I would still love to see if there is another quote you are referring to so that we could address it directly.

[SethBaker]

Very far from clear lol. You cited something directly from what I said, and then made a statement that I would be a bigot if I don't agree with you. I agree you didn't straight out call me a bigot but you most certainly implied it, since it followed something coming directly from what I said and since I clearly know your wrong. Just because your wrong, doesn't make me a bigot believe it or not, lol.

 

For all the complaining you've done about Terez and I misreading/misinterpreting your posts, you're not putting very much effort into parsing mine. Whether deliberately or carelessly, you've misread what I wrote and are responding to something I did not say. For how much complaining you've done about others doing the same, I'm surprised.

[SethBaker]

So because RJ said…

 

I have gay and lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven’t been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi. For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course.

 

- The Official Robert Jordan Blog, October 6, 2005

 

 

 

This is the quote you are referring to correct?

 

That's the one that came to mind. There's more on the topic, though.

 

Then please elaborate, give me the exact text you referring to.

 

Why? The quote provided is plenty for the answer to your question as to why it could be felt that a gay (male) character was overdue.

 

 

To you perhaps to me this Quote is just RJ stating that yes there are gay people in this world but that’s not really the story is it? See that’s the point I am trying to make. So a character is gay so what. My point is people who keeping trying to make an issue were there isn’t one, well that makes THEM the problem, not the issue. If the story had a gay character and that was important to the plot then it would have been part of the story by now don’t you think? RJ was making a side comment not a declaration. You can wish beans where steak but at the end of the day your having beans.

 

 

The point is it doesn’t matter to anyone except those that wish people paid them a little more attention. Which ironically, if they defined themselves with something other than where they park their preverbal truck, people would likely care more about them. It is a non issue; forcing it into the story for the sake of anything other than the story is classless and this isn’t a story about sex. Argue and complain all you want it just baffles me that this is even here. You want some good stories about being gay or becoming gay or discovering your gay heck I even have a book about a guy who thinks he’s gay only to find out in the end he’s straight, but you see those books are dealing with that issue. That is the point of those books. This is a book about fighting a “Dark One” with a magic horn and sword of glass……. I really don’t see where they wind up at the end of the day effects the story for anyone other than someone desperate to find an argument for how they are under appreciated in society. Truly I can list many aspects that are “oddly” missing but then they wouldn’t have any real bearing on the story either. Sanderson is pandering, if it makes you happy to not see it that way, well then that is what he wanted, me I’ll call a duck a duck.

 

People keep saying things like this, and I think it's a straw man. The hair color of the Aiel is irrelevant to fighting the Dark One and magic crystal swords, and yet we know what it is. We know how Taraboners dress, how Illianers talk, how Shienarans bathe, how Domani trim their facial hair. We know the names of kings and queens of nations that have been dead for 2,000 years, and have a chronology of all of the Amyrlin Seats since the Breaking of the World, and people are complaining that characters' sexuality might be an unnecessary detail?

 

It's all part of the same story. It's adding detail to the world. It might not be necessary to the narrative, but there are a thousand things like that in every book. The series would have been over by 1995 if RJ just wrote what he needed to to get the main narrative out.

[Canis Rufus]

So then Seth that was the Quote you were refering to.

[yoniy0]

The part that bugs me is how some people insist that it's been 'forced' into the story. Why assume that? Brandon's been writing parts of the story himself for two years now, and in the process he's invented more than one character and included some of their thought process. One of those characters, which - as chance has it - was pushed to AMoL based on editing considerations (recall that these three books are still basically all part of the original AMoL), happens to be gay. Brandon was reminded of that fact during a Twitter conversation and mentioned it to those he was conversing with. What detail in this story screams 'tokenism' or 'pandering'? I think some people are simply fearful that such motivations might have led Brandon to that choice, and reluctant to let him have the benefit of the doubt until they can read the book and judge on their own. I can't see how someone can claim that for fact though. That very nearly amounts to slander, I think.