Daft question, maybe - Moiraine and Siuan lovers?

[krislee]

Afternoon,

 

I've just read New Spring and there were a few parts of the book that suggest Moiraine and Siuan could be / have been lovers - or it could be a complete mis-interpretation by me :oops:

 

Moiraine blushing when realising the AS would have known things during her testing, a comment when Moiraine and Siuan share a bed while in the tower. I can't remember the exact parts of the book, but that kind of thing.

 

Any comments?

 

Regards,

 

Kris.

[Luckers]

Yes, Moiraine and Suine were lovers, or pillow friedns, as it is termed by the Aes Sedai. This has not only been confirmed by the texts, but by RJ.

[krislee]

Thanks Luckers. 'Pillow friends' was the term I had forgotton to mention.

 

Have there been any other 'pillow friends' mentioned in the books?

[Guest Majsju]

Quite a few. For example Elaida and Medani.

[OzzieAlThor]

Indeed. Key word to look for is "pillow friend".

 

Pillowfriend = teh lesbianz! FTW!

 

So far it's actually served no real purpose to include lesbian relationships into the world.

 

It's not a BAD thing or whatever, it just literally seems kind of thrown in their for no good reason.

[Guest Majsju]

So far it's actually served no real purpose to include lesbian relationships into the world.

 

It's not a BAD thing or whatever, it just literally seems kind of thrown in their for no good reason.

 

On the contrary, when it comes to Aes Sedai RJ throw in pillow friends when it is important to show a past relationship. Especially in the case of Elaida and Meidani.

 

And the couple Cadsuane caught in Cairhien and kidnapped for some time until she realized that they had been muffling the sheets instead of doing some plotting. That Cadsuane held them might turn out to have some importance later on, and she could not have done that if they had not been pillow friends.

 

There is almost always a political importance to be found when RJ mentions pillow friends. And as he mentioned in his blog, the reason why we haven't seen any gay men is because there have not been any such relationship important to the story, which means he has a reason every time he does mention a relationship between women.

[gaishain]

Could someone please post the link where RJ talks about this subject. I would like to read it myself.

[Guest Majsju]

In the upper right corner is a link to RJs blog. Check it out.

[taters]

I suppose there have been many instances of pillow friends in the white tower. Probably because of the isolation of the novices (and to a lesser degree accepted) from the outside world. It must get very lonely for the girls, away from men for such a long time.

 

I can't remember if it was mentioned in the books - what happens to a novice/accepted who gets pregnant?

[Guest cwestervelt]

It's definitely been mentioned that a Novice who gets pregnant will get the boot. I don't know if there is any mention of a penalty for Accepted. It may not even be necessary to have an official punishment at that point. Someone who has shown the dedication necessary to become Accepted is unlikely to allow themselves to be get into such a condition.

[SinisterDeath]

There was one reference in the books about 'gay men' and that was left to interpurtation. It had to deal with men who were allowed in the tower I think? Or at the royal palace place in caemlyn. I think it was along the lines of saying men who didn't like women or something? bah, I can't remember the exact wording but it had to deal with people who were allowed in, because they were either married or had no interest in...

[Luckers]

It was after Sierin was raised Amyrlin. Moiraine was ruminating on the fact that she could never be told of the Dragon because she was so red-like, and an example of that was that she had had all male clerks dismissed on grounds of inappropriate sexual behavious towards the Accepted, and that some of those men dismissed on that ground had no interest in women at all.

[OzzieAlThor]

 

On the contrary' date=' when it comes to Aes Sedai RJ throw in pillow friends when it is important to show a past relationship. Especially in the case of Elaida and Meidani.

 

And the couple Cadsuane caught in Cairhien and kidnapped for some time until she realized that they had been muffling the sheets instead of doing some plotting. That Cadsuane held them might turn out to have some importance later on, and she could not have done that if they had not been pillow friends.

 

There is almost always a political importance to be found when RJ mentions pillow friends. And as he mentioned in his blog, the reason why we haven't seen any gay men is because there have not been any such relationship important to the story, which means he has a reason every time he does mention a relationship between women.[/quote']

 

The only quote on his blog I have found so far is: "And for MJJ, as posted by DomA, pillow friends are not just good friends. Oh, they are that, too, but they also get hot and sweaty together and muss up the sheets something fierce. By the way, pillow friends is a term used in the White Tower. The same relationship between men or women elsewhere would be called something else, depending on the country."

 

That just confirms pillowfriends = lovers not plot devices. Again, I will look over the blog entries again to make sure I am correct. At this point it still is just kind of "there" serving no real purpose.

[Gentled Ben]

At this point it still is just kind of "there" serving no real purpose.

 

It serves to thicken, and/or advance the plot. RJ hasn't thrown in it for gratuitous sex, or to make a social/moral/political statement, or to titillate, etc. Although personally, speaking as a man, if he wants to throw in an unnecessary pillow-friends scene with Halima and Graendal, I'm okay with it. :P

 

In the Cadsuane example that Maj used, she and Verin were able to blackmail the women because of the shame/scandal of the naughty relationship. That was the only reason that RJ put it in the story--so that Cads and Verin would have a way to blackmail the women. It was a plot device. Every time that RJ has written about pillow-friends, it has been to use it as a device with which he can help the plot move along.

[Luckers]

i wont be able to provide you with links Ozzie, but i too have seen the quote Maj spoke of... they exist. He basically states that it was for the purpose of relationships nessasary for the plot progression to continue... in the same way that Seine contacts Pevara because of their previous friendship, or that Moiraine and Suine work together so readily, or to provide an avenue for Meidani to approach Elaida.

 

There is also a certain level of realism behind the decision Including people falling in love and having sex is nessasary in pretty much every story simply because thats what humans do, and a fairly large percentage do that with the same sex. And in a place like the tower, not only is going to be present, its going to be highlighted and significant. Ignoring the effect such a situation would have on the plot would be remiss of RJ as an author.

[Jonn]

I also recall in a Faile POV where she's worried about being raped by a Shaido. There are a few mentions of of homosexual relationships and behavior. I don't remember exactly the details, but there was an instance where she or someone wasn't worried about certain Aiel male warriors because they weren't interested in women. There is also Faile's followers. One of them is a lesbian, and protected herself from rape by attaching herself to one of the Maidens.

 

There's also Bain and Chiad. There seems to be a bit of a love triangle between Bain Chiad and Gaul. My read is that Chiad is reluctant to marry Gaul not only becasue she'd have to give up the Spear, but also because she is reluctant to leave Bain behind. If I'm not mistaken they seem to be on and off lovers. Chiad seems to be quite frank when she tells Gaul that it won't work out because then he'd also have marry Bain and neither of he or Bain seem too excited about that prospect.

 

RJ has the kind of respect for the reader to add these details to make his world more real. He trusts that the audience has the sophistication and the maturity to handle the subject matter.

[Gandaal]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere in the latter books that Elyane and Egwene we're pillow friends while they we're novices.

[Luckers]

Nah, Egwene and Elayne never were.

[Darthbob]

Pillow friends in the White Tower = sexy :lol:

 

Pillow biters in the Black Tower = not sexy :shock:

[Luckers]

Thanks for that highly intellectual contribution.

 

Frankly i think RJ needs to touch on the male relationships--not weave it into the story or anything, but at least have one solid one mentioned. It's a matter of balance.

[Abaddon]

Well, you finally got your wish later in the series, ha.

 

(Wow, this is an old topic.)