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Goodies and Baddies


Sharaman
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Just an enumeration of the major characters near the Three Ta'veren who we know are lightside, the ones we believe are Lightside with high confidence, and the ones who might be Darkside.

This assumes that at some stage, there will be a bit of backstabbing in AMoL, so it might help to know where it's coming from.

I'm relying heavily on PoVs where they exist for the absolute confidence section.

I'm sure there are errors and omissions in the following but it's a start.

 

Lightside groups of characters - based on PoV in the main

Absolute confidence that the following are lightside

a) The Three Ta'veren

b) The 4 Supergirls + Min

c) Moiraine

d) Lan

e) Tuon

f) Cadsuane, Pevara, various AS

g) Siuan, Byrne, Gawaine, Galad, Morgause, Ituralde, Brigitte

h) Egeanin, Bayle,

 

High confidence but slight question marks

i) Thom? Juilin? Hurin? Faile? Tam? No reason to assume otherwise but no absolutely clear PoVs either

j) Rhuarc, Darlin, Dobraine, Bashere, assorted Tear High Lords (because they could meet Rand's eyes but no PoVs)

k) Borderland monarchs (they did meet Rand's eyes), Alsalam,

 

 

Larger question marks about

1) The three WO Dreamwalkers, Sorilea,

2) Other Aiel chiefs,

3) Norry, Balwyn, Alliandre, Berelain,

4) Talmanes, Daerid

5) Various AS who may have slipped past Verin's list, beaten the Oath Rod, or been out of the Tower/ Salidar camp and hence not been tested.

 

Who else?

Edited by Sharaman
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Good topic. I'd highly recommend checking our the 13th Depository, who has lists of who IS and ISN'T a DF, and the rationales for all of them, rescued and update from the old wotmania/FAQ days.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/shadow-and-darkfriends-who-is.html

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/01/topical-index-all-things-under-shadow.html

 

That's for who is and is suspected of being a DF, Chosen and Channelers first, then Non.

 

As for who ISN'T a DF.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/02/who-is-not-darkfriend.html

 

Linda's list:

1) Three ta'veren

2) Egwene & Nynaeve

3) Elayne, Aviendha, and Min.

4) Significant others: Faile, Moiraine, Lan, Siuan, Loial, Thom, Galad, Gawyn, Garyth Byrnne, Leane, Logain, Morgase, Tam.

4) AS Members of Elaida's expedition to the BT (remember, Alviarin wanted no Black sisters there because she thought it was doomed). Though it is possible some have been turned against their will at this point.

 

It's a long list, too long for me to list, but some notables: Androl, Domon, Birgitte, Cadsuane, Dain Bornhald, Damer Flinn, King Darlin, Davram Bashere, Doesnine, King Easar, Egeanin, Elaida, Queen Ethenielle, Narishma, Naeff, King Paitar, Niall, Pevara, Rhuarc, Ilturalde, Romanda, Seanie.

 

And of course, Verin, who was Black, but not a Darkfriend.

 

Biggest name I didn't see on the list: Tuon/Fortuona. Though I could have missed her.

Edited by TheAngryDruid
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the 13th depository link that The AngryDruid gives is a very good one. As for those "question mark" people you mention. Alsalam is definitely not a DF. Rand would have blown his cover quickly if he was one. I'm also quite sure that Talmanes is not a DF. We've seen quite a bit of him especially lately and he never gives off any DF vibes that I can tell. darkfriends are supposed to have some strange character traits after all and I can find none in Talmanes. I would say the same thing about Amys and Bair. Melaine is not a DF either. Min saw nice future about her (kids and all). That means she lives through the LB. I'd say that makes her not a DF.

Berelain is something of a strange case. She is often an unpleasant character and comes off as something of an idiot in ToM in her discussions with Faile but this just might be Sanderson'a take on her. But she'd done too much good work for Rand. Lastly her love story with Galad makes it exceedingly unlikely that she is a DF. I'm quite sure Alliadre is not a DF either. Her character is quite straightforward which comes through particularly well in her POV in ToM.

 

Aiel Chiefs might have Dfs among them. we haven't seen enough of them onsceen unfortunately. some of them did advocate dangerous decisions to Rand at various points so perhaps some are DFs. The ones I would exclude are Rhuarc, Bael (he is Melaine's husband and it would really be a strange story if he were a DF but not her) and Bruan. Avi saw him survive the LB in her visions. That would mean that if he were a DF he never switched sides in the LB. That does not seem to make sense. Dfs have to hide of course but they have to come out in the open in the end, right?

 

Sorilea seems to be a DF. There is a recent thread about her so I won't repeat the arguments.

 

One person you have not mentioned that I'm not sure about is Alanna. She was always a strange character and she fled right before the new Rand with his x-ray eyes came back. She left because of Verin's letter but still... Of course if she is a DF then Verin didn't know about it. But Verin did say that she did not know all Blacks and may have missed Alanna.

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Alanna is a question mark certainly. I don't think she is a DF because of several reasons. But she isn't absolutely ruled out.

Similarly you cannot absolutely rule out people like Talmanes, etc, because there are no PoVs for him and he hasn't passed the Rand eye-balling test.

Ditto the WO Dreamwalkers - there are no PoVs and there were suspicious incidents that they might have engineered before Sorilea entered the narrative.

I see no explicit reason why spouses of DFs "must" be DFs as well. If a DF can get into a long-term relationship with a non DF (Mat-Melindhra as an example), no reason why a DF would not marry a non-DF particularly if he/she was influential.

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the 13th depository link that The AngryDruid gives is a very good one. As for those "question mark" people you mention. Alsalam is definitely not a DF. Rand would have blown his cover quickly if he was one. I'm also quite sure that Talmanes is not a DF. We've seen quite a bit of him especially lately and he never gives off any DF vibes that I can tell. darkfriends are supposed to have some strange character traits after all and I can find none in Talmanes. I would say the same thing about Amys and Bair. Melaine is not a DF either. Min saw nice future about her (kids and all). That means she lives through the LB. I'd say that makes her not a DF.

Berelain is something of a strange case. She is often an unpleasant character and comes off as something of an idiot in ToM in her discussions with Faile but this just might be Sanderson'a take on her. But she'd done too much good work for Rand. Lastly her love story with Galad makes it exceedingly unlikely that she is a DF. I'm quite sure Alliadre is not a DF either. Her character is quite straightforward which comes through particularly well in her POV in ToM.

 

Aiel Chiefs might have Dfs among them. we haven't seen enough of them onsceen unfortunately. some of them did advocate dangerous decisions to Rand at various points so perhaps some are DFs. The ones I would exclude are Rhuarc, Bael (he is Melaine's husband and it would really be a strange story if he were a DF but not her) and Bruan. Avi saw him survive the LB in her visions. That would mean that if he were a DF he never switched sides in the LB. That does not seem to make sense. Dfs have to hide of course but they have to come out in the open in the end, right?

 

Sorilea seems to be a DF. There is a recent thread about her so I won't repeat the arguments.

 

One person you have not mentioned that I'm not sure about is Alanna. She was always a strange character and she fled right before the new Rand with his x-ray eyes came back. She left because of Verin's letter but still... Of course if she is a DF then Verin didn't know about it. But Verin did say that she did not know all Blacks and may have missed Alanna.

 

I am not going to get into specific people, but I would question your assertion that just surviving the LB makes you instantly not a DF. While I don't think there are going to be large, roving bands of DFs post LB, I don't think they are going to all be wiped out to a man either. So while the assumption may be safe, I wouldn't rely on it too heavily, because it definitely isn't certain.

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Just an enumeration of the major characters near the Three Ta'veren who we know are lightside, the ones we believe are Lightside with high confidence, and the ones who might be Darkside.

This assumes that at some stage, there will be a bit of backstabbing in AMoL, so it might help to know where it's coming from.

I'm relying heavily on PoVs where they exist for the absolute confidence section.

I'm sure there are errors and omissions in the following but it's a start.

 

Lightside groups of characters - based on PoV in the main

Absolute confidence that the following are lightside

a) The Three Ta'veren

b) The 4 Supergirls + Min

c) Moiraine

d) Lan

e) Tuon

f) Cadsuane, Pevara, various AS

g) Siuan, Byrne, Gawaine, Galad, Morgause, Ituralde, Brigitte

h) Egeanin, Bayle,

 

High confidence but slight question marks

i) Thom? Juilin? Hurin? Faile? Tam? No reason to assume otherwise but no absolutely clear PoVs either

j) Rhuarc, Darlin, Dobraine, Bashere, assorted Tear High Lords (because they could meet Rand's eyes but no PoVs)

k) Borderland monarchs (they did meet Rand's eyes), Alsalam,

 

 

Larger question marks about

1) The three WO Dreamwalkers, Sorilea,

2) Other Aiel chiefs,

3) Norry, Balwyn, Alliandre, Berelain,

4) Talmanes, Daerid

5) Various AS who may have slipped past Verin's list, beaten the Oath Rod, or been out of the Tower/ Salidar camp and hence not been tested.

 

Who else?

 

 

Isn't it sort of pointless to list "Various AS" among those you are positive are not darkfriends and then also list "Various AS" among those who have a big question mark? To use the word "various" at all makes the list, as a whole, completely pointless. You might as well say, "I'm positive that various charecters are light friends, while I'm not so sure about various other charecters. Also, various charecters are most definately darkfriends. Oh, and various charecters are going to do various things to various other charecters, in my humble opinion."

 

Sorry for being an ass... but I could not resist.

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I am not going to get into specific people, but I would question your assertion that just surviving the LB makes you instantly not a DF. While I don't think there are going to be large, roving bands of DFs post LB, I don't think they are going to all be wiped out to a man either. So while the assumption may be safe, I wouldn't rely on it too heavily, because it definitely isn't certain.

I totally and wholeheartedly agree, but those to survive will most likely be members of the lower ranks, those who could hide after discovering their loss. A prominent DF would most likely have to perform a task that would reveal him/her for what he/she is before TG is over. Otherwise, what's the point of being a DF? Hence, I think Bruan is probably safe. Naturally, I can't be sure of that, as you explained.

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while I wouldn't make a blanket statement that anybody surviving the LB is not a DF the reasons in case of a clan chief or a Wise one are rather obvious. the last battle is the last battle for the dark side as well as for the light side. The DO is not at all interested in preserving his tools in case he fails. they will be ordered to fight, all of them. some might refuse or try to do it covertly but that would be rather hard to do for someone in a position of authority like a clan chief. I really don't see a clan chief DF surviving the LB without blowing his cover. at least it looks highly unlikely to me.

 

oops, yoniy0 types faster than me :biggrin:

 

If Alanna is alive after Maradon she probably isn't a darkfriend. What Rand did was capable of making DF's facing the other way commit suicide to escape "the light", imagine what it would be like for someone connected to him.

I don't think it's safe to infer that. we don't really know the mechanics of whatever it is about the new Rand that affects the DFs so much. Min feels only Rand's emotions via the bond during the Maradon fight. I would guess that Alanna would feel no more than that. and we know for sure that Black Ajah Aes Sedai can have non DF warders. the opposite is likely also possible. so this is not something that can be felt through the bond.

 

Lastly, it just occurred to me that being a DF clan chief is rather tricky with dreamwalker Wise Ones around. they peek into clan chiefs dreams and would likely figure something out if the clan chief in question is a DF. When Egwene peeks into Rhuarc's dream she finds out that he sees her as a child but there is nothing dark there. she certainly finds plenty of dark stuff in Isendre's dreams and in Kadere's dreams. She should have figured something out about them based on that. The Wise Ones likely would have.

Edited by herid
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The WOs don't poke Chief's dreams all the time on a continuous basis though I agree this would be an interesting way to eliminate possible suspects.

Bael, Rhuarc couldn't be DFs for instance, unless Melaine and Amys are also DFs.

But while a Lightsider might not have Dark dreams, (even that is tenuous, since even good folks can have nightmares), there's no reason why a Darksider would not occasionally have pleasant dreams.

So dream-poking would be a hit/miss affair I'd guess.

 

The logic of classifying Bruan as Lightside because he survives TG could also break down on the basis that we don't know if other elements of Avi's vision will come true anyway. It's like Egwene's visions of marrying Rand - she doesn't.

 

About Alanna, I agree with Herid that just having a warder bond with Rand isn't enough to eliminate her.

FWIW, I don't think Alanna's a DF because she spent months in Verin's company during the TR trip and later (TSR-LoC) and Verin apparently didn't "out" her in the list she gave Egwene. (Egwene has a connection to Alanna from TGH onwards and also some fondness for Alanna and would have probably thought of her if she had been on the list). While Verin might not know every BA member, I don't think two BA members who spent months together alone would fail to figure each other out. They have signals. We have the example of Galina-Katerine, who learnt about each other while kidnapping Rand.

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Yes, Alanna is unlikely to be a DF but she can't quite be eliminated.

 

She will be an important target in the next book. Shaidar is aware of Warder bonds, I wonder if he might find out about Alannas bond to Rand? I think-HOPE!-that Alanna becomes a target. Imagine if she was 13x13ed... it could bring the Moridin back out in Rand! Ive got a theory that Moiraines role is to make Alanna pass that bond before the Forsaken get her-or deal with Rand if the Forsaken do kill Alanna (the latter please, Rand isnt as fun without the anger issues)

Edited by Drekka Mort
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