Matrim Cauthon

[ckennedy1982]

Hello all

Thought i would start a topic about Mat and hope it hasn't been done before. This post by the way concerns the last 3-4 books of The Wheel of Time so hopefully it won't spoil it for anyone, anyway my theory is this. You know in the Seanchan propherecy they say Rand will " Bow to the the Daughter of the Nine Moons". I think he will, although it won't be the Daughter of the Nine Moons it will be Mat. I have to admit my theory is shaky but the story is pushing towards Rand bowing towards the Seanchan. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to take into account that Mat has been "touted" as a noble throughtout the later books in the series and maybe Rand will not bow to Toun but to Mat as he will become the Emperor of the Seanchan, remember the original leaders of the Seachan were all men!............. I know it seems absurd and it's ok if im ridiculed but im just going of what i've seen from RJ books far.

[Terez]

The actual wordings are 1) that Rand will 'bind the nine moons to serve him' and 2) that Rand will 'kneel to the Crystal Throne'. Many people have tried to twist this into Rand bowing only to Mat over the years (because they are Mat fanboys, but they hate the Seanchan, usually), but it doesn't really make a great deal of sense. In order for Mat to represent either the nine moons or the Crystal Throne in any real way, he and Tuon are going to have to come to some kind of agreement, and in that case, there's probably no harm in Rand bowing to Tuon anyway. Aviendha's vision of the future indicated that Rand bowed to her. And why not, if she meets his terms? The only thing he will not accept is the collaring of channelers, and while Mat might throw in the da'covale, it's not hard to see her being persuaded to abolish slavery altogether. There are many indications that she will get her Consolidation after all, and no real indication that Mat will be emperor, or that he would even want to be. Tuon was raised to rule; Mat was not. Obviously, his influence is necessary for her to be the best ruler possible, but I doubt it will go beyond that.

[Evoke]

Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne is a bad thing. This event will forever haunt the Aiel and become a slight they'll want to rectify. Resulting in the Aiel-without-a-cause to start this unwinnable war. Rand can't kneel to the Throne. It's Ishamael's work.

[randsc]

Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne is a bad thing. This event will forever haunt the Aiel and become a slight they'll want to rectify. Resulting in the Aiel-without-a-cause to start this unwinnable war. Rand can't kneel to the Throne. It's Ishamael's work.

 

^^^ This.

 

The Seanchan prophecies are corrupted. The last thing we want is to see them fulfilled.

 

There seems to be a developing meme that Rand will kneel to the Crystal Throne, and that it will be no big deal. It strikes me as a big deal. Can someone explain how Elayne acknowledging the obvious truth that Rand had more than a little to do with her accession to the throne of Andor is political suicide, and Perrin's "rebellion" is a massive crisis that would cause great instability, and yet the Dragon Reborn bowing to a power with the stated objective of conquering the world is "no big deal"?

 

If the symbolism matters in the ultimately trivial matter of Andoran succession politics, it sure as hell matters when the Dragon Reborn is involved.

[mb]

In past threads I speculated that both prophecies would come true. At that time I speculated that it would be through a male adam; I still consider that.

Other possibilities I now consider::

-Either or both getting a copy of the other's prophecies then deciding to bow down after reading them.

-Others (like respective followers/advisers) convincing either or both to bow down to the other.

-One bowing down first (through one of the above processes) then persuading/convincing/etc the other. And/or if Rand first, using his tavereness and/or newly given powers/abilities/etc to get Tuon/Fortuona to bow down.

 

 

Even if Seanchan's prophecies is Ishamael's work, it seems to me that the Dark side unknowingly serves the Light. Pattern's balance tendency could be an indicator of that.

[Suttree]

Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne is a bad thing. This event will forever haunt the Aiel and become a slight they'll want to rectify. Resulting in the Aiel-without-a-cause to start this unwinnable war. Rand can't kneel to the Throne. It's Ishamael's work.

 

^^^ This.

 

The Seanchan prophecies are corrupted. The last thing we want is to see them fulfilled.

 

There seems to be a developing meme that Rand will kneel to the Crystal Throne, and that it will be no big deal. It strikes me as a big deal. Can someone explain how Elayne acknowledging the obvious truth that Rand had more than a little to do with her accession to the throne of Andor is political suicide, and Perrin's "rebellion" is a massive crisis that would cause great instability, and yet the Dragon Reborn bowing to a power with the stated objective of conquering the world is "no big deal"?

 

If the symbolism matters in the ultimately trivial matter of Andoran succession politics, it sure as hell matters when the Dragon Reborn is involved.

 

It may be Ishamael's work and we do know the Seanchan prophecies are corrupted. If bowing to the Crystal Throne would help however, I can't see how perception of others would ultimately matter all that much to Rand at this point in the story if he gains what he needs for TG. We have seen him totally change his mannerisms and interactions with others post DM, he is secure in his power and rule. Ready to do anything needed to win the Last Battle.

 

Elayne on the other hand was a young Queen with little support that needed to play the game to stabilize her power base and gain legitimacy.

[FarShainMael]

People have played with the idea of Rand 'kneeling before tha Crystal Throne' in parody; he meets Mat, learns that he married the DotNM, and - knowing Mat's opinion of nobility - kneels before him in gentle mockery. (Unfortunately I can't quite see Rand Sedai being quite that light-hearted. Pity..) Or, there's the point that Mat has in his possession at least one Seanchan coin, which has an image of the Empress (mslf) on one side and of the CT on the other (WH18). Mat tosses this coin, and Rand kneels to pick it up, thus fulfilling the prophecy.

 

Of course, there's the possibility that Rand may kneel to Mat as rep of the CT in order to defuse the prophecy - and then set about 'binding the Nine Moons' to serve him.

[Wantanswers]

People have played with the idea of Rand 'kneeling before tha Crystal Throne' in parody; he meets Mat, learns that he married the DotNM, and - knowing Mat's opinion of nobility - kneels before him in gentle mockery. (Unfortunately I can't quite see Rand Sedai being quite that light-hearted. Pity..) Or, there's the point that Mat has in his possession at least one Seanchan coin, which has an image of the Empress (mslf) on one side and of the CT on the other (WH18). Mat tosses this coin, and Rand kneels to pick it up, thus fulfilling the prophecy.

 

Of course, there's the possibility that Rand may kneel to Mat as rep of the CT in order to defuse the prophecy - and then set about 'binding the Nine Moons' to serve him.

 

How will this fulfill the prophesie? As Terez already mentioned: "He will kneel before the Chrystal Throne".

Tuon thinks that it means he will bow for her. That's her assumption. But, there is a great difference between "kneeling before the Chrystal Throne" and "bowing for the Nine Moons". Rand might even kneel before the Chrystal Throne while it is empty.

[FarShainMael]

People have played with the idea of Rand 'kneeling before tha Crystal Throne' in parody; he meets Mat, learns that he married the DotNM, and - knowing Mat's opinion of nobility - kneels before him in gentle mockery. (Unfortunately I can't quite see Rand Sedai being quite that light-hearted. Pity..) Or, there's the point that Mat has in his possession at least one Seanchan coin, which has an image of the Empress (mslf) on one side and of the CT on the other (WH18). Mat tosses this coin, and Rand kneels to pick it up, thus fulfilling the prophecy.

 

Of course, there's the possibility that Rand may kneel to Mat as rep of the CT in order to defuse the prophecy - and then set about 'binding the Nine Moons' to serve him.

 

How will this fulfill the prophesie? As Terez already mentioned: "He will kneel before the Chrystal Throne".

Tuon thinks that it means he will bow for her. That's her assumption. But, there is a great difference between "kneeling before the Chrystal Throne" and "bowing for the Nine Moons". Rand might even kneel before the Chrystal Throne while it is empty.

 

Tuon has got it wrong, as you point out. But do read my post again - I haven't mentioned 'bowing' anywhere.

[Wantanswers]

Your correct. Sorry.

[teutonic]

People have played with the idea of Rand 'kneeling before tha Crystal Throne' in parody; he meets Mat, learns that he married the DotNM, and - knowing Mat's opinion of nobility - kneels before him in gentle mockery. (Unfortunately I can't quite see Rand Sedai being quite that light-hearted. Pity..)

 

Actually, if I may build on that...

 

There's also the possibility that Rand, as soon as he learns that Mat 'accidentally' married the Seanchan empress, will begin to laugh so hard at poor Mat's misfortune that the wound in Rand's side splits open again and he falls to his knees in front of them both, tears of both agony and hilarity streaming down his face.

 

Bingo! Prophecy fulfilled.

 

The problem with that is that while I can easily see Rand 'Coo-Coo For Cocoa Puffs' Al'Thor giggling until he falls over, I can't see it of Rand Sedai. He's far too serious.

 

(Which, incidentally, this post isn't.)

[FarShainMael]

@wantanswers - no problemo!

 

@Teutonic Titwillow:

[mb]

I haven't mentioned 'bowing' anywhere.

bowing & kneeling could probably be considered interchangeable.

[Wantanswers]

I haven't mentioned 'bowing' anywhere.

bowing & kneeling could probably be considered interchangeable.

I don't think so. Beslan doesn't have kneel. By thinking Rand have to bow she thinks of him as the equal of a king.

[Guest mike03]

I could easily see both prophecies coming true with Rand kneeling to the crystal throne in order to bind Fortuona to him. The wiser Rand seems to have more humility. However, I don't see him kneeling or bowing to Mat because I doubt that would really mean anything to the Seanchan empire. Tuon seems to be in complete control. She even talks about not having to worry about Mat scheming behind her back, which seems to imply that Mat is below her in a way.

[randsc]

The Seanchan prohpecies are also "clear" (or so we are told, in Path of Daggers) that the Dragon Reborn would SERVE the Crystal Throne. Thus rendering people's notiona about some merely ceremonial bowing/kneeling moot.

[randsc]

I could easily see both prophecies coming true with Rand kneeling to the crystal throne in order to bind Fortuona to him. The wiser Rand seems to have more humility. However, I don't see him kneeling or bowing to Mat because I doubt that would really mean anything to the Seanchan empire. Tuon seems to be in complete control. She even talks about not having to worry about Mat scheming behind her back, which seems to imply that Mat is below her in a way.

 

I think she feels she doesn't have to worry about Mat scheming because Mat wasn't brought up in the culture of the Seanchan High Blood, not because he is so far beneath her.

[randsc]

I haven't mentioned 'bowing' anywhere.

bowing & kneeling could probably be considered interchangeable.

I don't think so. Beslan doesn't have kneel. By thinking Rand have to bow she thinks of him as the equal of a king.

 

But, again, the prophecy says "kneel." So Tuon herself seems to think that bowing and kneeling are functional equivelents, for the purposes of prohecy-fulfillment.

[Guest mike03]

I could easily see both prophecies coming true with Rand kneeling to the crystal throne in order to bind Fortuona to him. The wiser Rand seems to have more humility. However, I don't see him kneeling or bowing to Mat because I doubt that would really mean anything to the Seanchan empire. Tuon seems to be in complete control. She even talks about not having to worry about Mat scheming behind her back, which seems to imply that Mat is below her in a way.

 

I think she feels she doesn't have to worry about Mat scheming because Mat wasn't brought up in the culture of the Seanchan High Blood, not because he is so far beneath her.

 

I certainly agree with the fact that she is not worried about him because he wasn't raised in the same culture, and I am not saying that he is so far beneath her. However, I still think that it implies that the Empress is the highest position. They do not seem to refer to an Emperor and Empress ruling together. Tuon refers to her mother's husband, not the Emperor. So I think that there is still a distinction in power, and the Seanchan are all about distinctions and titles.

[Suttree]

The Seanchan prohpecies are also "clear" (or so we are told, in Path of Daggers) that the Dragon Reborn would SERVE the Crystal Throne. Thus rendering people's notiona about some merely ceremonial bowing/kneeling moot.

 

"Serve" wasn't actually in the prophecies was it? If my memory is correct that was someone(Tuon?) musing on their interpretation of what the Seanchan prophecies meant.

[Wantanswers]

The Seanchan prohpecies are also "clear" (or so we are told, in Path of Daggers) that the Dragon Reborn would SERVE the Crystal Throne. Thus rendering people's notiona about some merely ceremonial bowing/kneeling moot.

 

"Serve" wasn't actually in the prophecies was it? If my memory is correct that was someone(Tuon?) musing on their interpretation of what the Seanchan prophecies meant.

Randsc mixed 2 prophecies:

Karathon Cycle: "He will bind the Nine Moons to serve him."

Essanik Cycle : "The Dragon Reborn must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost."

[randsc]

The Seanchan prohpecies are also "clear" (or so we are told, in Path of Daggers) that the Dragon Reborn would SERVE the Crystal Throne. Thus rendering people's notiona about some merely ceremonial bowing/kneeling moot.

 

"Serve" wasn't actually in the prophecies was it? If my memory is correct that was someone(Tuon?) musing on their interpretation of what the Seanchan prophecies meant.

Randsc mixed 2 prophecies:

Karathon Cycle: "He will bind the Nine Moons to serve him."

Essanik Cycle : "The Dragon Reborn must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost."

 

I did no such thing.

 

Mishima states (well, thinks, actually) that the Randland prophecies must be corrupted, because they do not mention the Dragon serving the Crystal Throne.

 

It is possible, of course, that Mishima is wrong, and that the Seanchan prophecies do not actually say that the Dragon will serve the Crystal Throne. But it is clear tthat the Seanchan we have seen are far more familiar with their prophecies than the Randlanders are with theirs, so I doubt it.

[randsc]

The Seanchan prohpecies are also "clear" (or so we are told, in Path of Daggers) that the Dragon Reborn would SERVE the Crystal Throne. Thus rendering people's notiona about some merely ceremonial bowing/kneeling moot.

 

"Serve" wasn't actually in the prophecies was it? If my memory is correct that was someone(Tuon?) musing on their interpretation of what the Seanchan prophecies meant.

 

Actually, it was Mishima. But the Seanchan seem to be pretty familiar with their prophecies.

[Wantanswers]

The Seanchan prohpecies are also "clear" (or so we are told, in Path of Daggers) that the Dragon Reborn would SERVE the Crystal Throne. Thus rendering people's notiona about some merely ceremonial bowing/kneeling moot.

 

"Serve" wasn't actually in the prophecies was it? If my memory is correct that was someone(Tuon?) musing on their interpretation of what the Seanchan prophecies meant.

Randsc mixed 2 prophecies:

Karathon Cycle: "He will bind the Nine Moons to serve him."

Essanik Cycle : "The Dragon Reborn must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost."

 

I did no such thing.

 

Mishima states (well, thinks, actually) that the Randland prophecies must be corrupted, because they do not mention the Dragon serving the Crystal Throne.

 

It is possible, of course, that Mishima is wrong, and that the Seanchan prophecies do not actually say that the Dragon will serve the Crystal Throne. But it is clear tthat the Seanchan we have seen are far more familiar with their prophecies than the Randlanders are with theirs, so I doubt it.

Now you are mixing up the text of the Essanik Cycle and Mishima's interpretation. Tuon has an other interpretation. Who is wrong? Tuon, Mishima, both?

You cannot use an interpretation in a discussion.

[randsc]

Now you are mixing up the text of the Essanik Cycle and Mishima's interpretation. Tuon has an other interpretation.

 

I'm not "mixing up" anything. The fact that Tuon is shown thinking that the Dragon must bow to the Crystal Throne does not mean that the Seanchan prophecies don't make other mentions of the relationship between the Empress and the Dragon. You are falling into the trap of false dichotomy. It is simply not true that the Seanchan prophecies must include text indicating that the Dragon must bow/kneel to the Crystal Throne, or text that the Dragon must serve the Empress, but not both. It could well be both.

 

Who is wrong? Tuon, Mishima, both?

Either, neither, or both. You've set up another false dichotomy (really, an extension of the first one). They could very well both be right, just thinking of different portions of the text.

 

You cannot use an interpretation in a discussion.

 

Are you kidding me? Is this some sort of universal moral law? It sure as hell isn't a rule of logic. It doesn't even make sense. Since we don't have more than a tiny fraction of the text of the prophecy, we basically have nothing to go on EXCEPT interpretations of characters. Hell, even if we HAD the complete text of the prophecies, we lack the cultural context to interpret them. A Seanchan is more likely to correctly interpret a Seanchan prophecy than is an Dutchman (or whatever you are).