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is Taim an impostor?


herid
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  1. 1. Is the current Taim the original Taim who declared himself the Dragon?



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ok, about the RJ quotes. as I said, they are perfectly logical from his point of view and prove nothing. He is not lying to us. he is simply telling us that a real Taim would have a good reason behave as he did.
RJ was asked about Taim - that is, the guy who shows up in LoC by that name. His responses were also about that person. Whether or not that person was born Mazrim Taim or Elan Morin, RJ was talking about that person. Now, while it might be true that Moridin "has one safe haven in the world", that one place is not Caemlyn. Nor can it be said of him that he "really didn't have much other choice". Nor do the reasons why Bashere was able to follow him over hundreds of miles or his appearance being older than it should be make sense for a man who can Travel (which we know Moridin can do). On the other hand, they make perfect sense for Taim. The explanation you give does not fit with the facts of what was asked, nor of what was answered. That's no top of the fact that the books themselves shed serious doubt on your theory, and the simple fact that it solves nothing.

 

On the other hand we have the following BS quote
Towers of Midnight book tour 6 November 2010, Bailey's Crossroads, VA - Robert Mee reporting

 

Taim may not be a standard Third-Ager. Brandon wouldn’t say any further because he has about 5 chapters revolving around the Black Tower to write for the beginning of the next book and he didn’t want to spoil, so it was half a RAFO.

If Taim is just Taim then according to you BS is lying here? why would he ever say anything like that if Taim was just Taim?
How could BS be lying? May not be a standard Third Ager. Nothing solid there. He could be a non-standard Third Ager, in the way others have already pointed out - trained by a Chosen.

 

And your explanation about mocking still doesn't make sense. So Taim wants to mock Bashere even though it's a stupid thing to do and he ought to know it.
Well, that actually happened. It's in the book. So either it's Moridin being an idiot and risking his life for some cheap mockery of Bashere, or it's Taim who's being stupid and risking his life for some cheap mockery of Bashere.
why doesn't he say that he shaved to make himself less recognizable and then proceed to mock bashere in exactly the same way as he did?
Doesn't make any difference either way, really. He wanted to mock Bashere - does it really matter how?
what is gained from writer's perspective by making him lie, accentuate the lie twice in the same scene and then finally reveal it as a lie in such a way that most readers would not notice?
The point is, what is said is clearly intended as mockery, from that paragraph itself. There is therefore no reason to accept that Taim ever gave a real reason for having shaved (not that he was actually asked). You don't have to be a genius at close reading, it's clear for everyone - Taim was mocking Bashere when he said it, why would you think it was the truth?

 

lastly, why would Moridin masquerade as Taim? that's quite obvious. Taim is an experienced channeler willing to help and Rand is certainly looking for help at this point. he wants to be Rand's advisor when he shows up. that's made pretty clear. It's Rand's idea to make him train Asha'man. Taim knows nothing about it when he shows up. being an advisor is a perfectly good role. it's also in total agreement with Ishy's MO. He did the exact same thing with Hawkwing. Posing as Taim would also explain his great strength in OP which he wouldn't have to hide then. Such powerful channelers as Taim don't come around too often. Coming to Rand as a farmer from Black Hills is laughable. why would Rand take him on in any role of importance or even give him an audience?
Don't get too hung up on the Black Hills part. The point was, by posing as a real person, anyone who has met that real person has the potential to harm your disguise. By inventing a new person, that can't happen. Dashiva (actually Osan'gar) was a strong channeler who spent quite a while in close proximity to Rand. Why couldn't Moridin do the same? What does he gain from being Taim? Nothing at all. He could have done exactly that with no issues about appearance. The Taim persona has few, if any, advantages, and as many flaws.

 

He has way too much Second Age knowledge/mannerisms about him: so-called Aiel, anti-sweating trick, can test for the power. Plus the hole Sigil thing. If he isn't Moridin (which I doubt), then he's a proxy of some sort.
The anti-sweating trick is known to Third Agers. Him knowing how to test for the Power is no more inexplicable than any other self-taught Wilder trick, and doesn't require anything other than Taim being a channeler. So-called Aiel is an oddity, but one as easily explained by him being taught by Ishy as by him being Ishy. The sigil is one not used by Moridin. It is a link to the Shadow, to the Chosen, a sign of him being a Dreadlord - I can accept any of these. But it counts against the idea that he is Moridin.
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Anybody who's fluent in the Old Tongue and knows some AoL history might wonder about the "Aiel". Moiraine comes close to saying something very similar when she speaks to the WOs about the "Dedicated" in TSR.

The M'hael is clearly a bit of an OT scholar and quite possibly knows some AoL history (the two would tend to go together).

Is it even necessary for him to be trained by Ishy to wonder why a bunch of warriors would name themselves the "Dedicated" when they have nothing in common with the AoL peaceniks?

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Anybody who's fluent in the Old Tongue and knows some AoL history might wonder about the "Aiel". Moiraine comes close to saying something very similar when she speaks to the WOs about the "Dedicated" in TSR.

The M'hael is clearly a bit of an OT scholar and quite possibly knows some AoL history (the two would tend to go together).

Is it even necessary for him to be trained by Ishy to wonder why a bunch of warriors would name themselves the "Dedicated" when they have nothing in common with the AoL peaceniks?

nobody is that familiar with AoL history. That's made perfectly clear in early books. Aes Sedai don't know anything about Aiel's pacifist roots or about any peaciniks who called themnselves Dedicated in AoL and neither do the Ogier. And if anybody should know about AoL history they should. Neither Moiraine nor Verin (who is a Brown) have any clue about that. same goes for Cadsuane who is very surprised to hear of the rumors about Aiel pacifist past. how is it that Taim figured all of that out when nobody else could?

on a separate issue, how does Taim know Old Tongue anyway? is he a noble? that's not mentioned anywhere.

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When Taim made the comment, the origins of the Aiel were already widespread. It is possible his knowledge came from that method.

ok that might be possible. still, nobody but Taim calls Aiel so-called Aiel. That implies a great deal of familiarity with the subject.

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When Taim made the comment, the origins of the Aiel were already widespread. It is possible his knowledge came from that method.

ok that might be possible. still, nobody but Taim calls Aiel so-called Aiel. That implies a great deal of familiarity with the subject.

 

That very realistically comes from being around a chosen who would know their history and refer to them as such.

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When Taim made the comment, the origins of the Aiel were already widespread. It is possible his knowledge came from that method.

ok that might be possible. still, nobody but Taim calls Aiel so-called Aiel. That implies a great deal of familiarity with the subject.

 

That very realistically comes from being around a chosen who would know their history and refer to them as such.

yes, possibly, although his boss would have to educate him pretty well on the subject. but I was referring to the argument made by Sharaman who said that we don't even have to assume that Taim is a pupil of Moridin to justify him using that phrase. I definitely disagree with that. If Taim is not Moridin himself he is his close associate.

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Robert Jordan told that Demandred's "alter ego" has not been on screen (I think up through Crossroads of Twilight). Sanderson confirmed it telling up through Knife of Dreams.

Taim being just Taim would not change the story.

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Taim is Demandred. I know it, you know it and Robert Jordan damn well knew it. If Sanderson writes it wrong in the last book and has Taim just be Taim, it means he changed the story.

 

I'm going to assume you're just joking around here, so I'm not going to worry about providing all the RJ quotes against Taim=Demandred.

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When Taim made the comment, the origins of the Aiel were already widespread. It is possible his knowledge came from that method.

ok that might be possible. still, nobody but Taim calls Aiel so-called Aiel. That implies a great deal of familiarity with the subject.

 

That very realistically comes from being around a chosen who would know their history and refer to them as such.

yes, possibly, although his boss would have to educate him pretty well on the subject. but I was referring to the argument made by Sharaman who said that we don't even have to assume that Taim is a pupil of Moridin to justify him using that phrase. I definitely disagree with that. If Taim is not Moridin himself he is his close associate.

 

We know Taim is a close associate of Moridin as of ToM for several other reasons.

However, just the use of that one phrase doesn't automatically lead to that deduction.

As mb pointed out, Taim refers to the "so-called Aiel" as of LoC - since TSR and TFoH, the origin has become pretty well-known. There are thousands of Aiel suffering the bleakness and wandering around.

Moiraine may not have known about the Aiel's origins but she wondered about them in TSR because she knew the meaning of the word "Dedicated" and of "True Dedicated".

Taim knows OT for sure. (BTW it's not unheard of, for non-nobles to know OT - scribes, clerks, balladeers, for instance do. The cover story that a nutty Black Hills farmer (*Dashiva) could know OT isn't considered suspicious. People are only mildly surprised to discover a hick like Mat has OT fluency.)

So Taim finds it odd. Big deal. Moiraine found it just as odd.

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Guest mike03

There are certainly some interesting comments, such as the "so-called Aiel," but I think that could just be the fact that Taim became a darkfriend and has been serving Moridin or the other Chosen. It just seems to make sense that Taim and Logain, both recent false dragons, would end up battling. One chose to fight for the Light and the other chose the Dark. It seems like a nice balance. However, it would be interesting if Taim really was from a different age or had some unforeseen background.

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When Taim made the comment, the origins of the Aiel were already widespread. It is possible his knowledge came from that method.

ok that might be possible. still, nobody but Taim calls Aiel so-called Aiel. That implies a great deal of familiarity with the subject.

 

That very realistically comes from being around a chosen who would know their history and refer to them as such.

yes, possibly, although his boss would have to educate him pretty well on the subject. but I was referring to the argument made by Sharaman who said that we don't even have to assume that Taim is a pupil of Moridin to justify him using that phrase. I definitely disagree with that. If Taim is not Moridin himself he is his close associate.

 

We know Taim is a close associate of Moridin as of ToM for several other reasons.

However, just the use of that one phrase doesn't automatically lead to that deduction.

As mb pointed out, Taim refers to the "so-called Aiel" as of LoC - since TSR and TFoH, the origin has become pretty well-known. There are thousands of Aiel suffering the bleakness and wandering around.

Moiraine may not have known about the Aiel's origins but she wondered about them in TSR because she knew the meaning of the word "Dedicated" and of "True Dedicated".

Taim knows OT for sure. (BTW it's not unheard of, for non-nobles to know OT - scribes, clerks, balladeers, for instance do. The cover story that a nutty Black Hills farmer (*Dashiva) could know OT isn't considered suspicious. People are only mildly surprised to discover a hick like Mat has OT fluency.)

So Taim finds it odd. Big deal. Moiraine found it just as odd.

I didn't mean to imply that his use of that phrase alone makes certain that he is an associate of Moridin. as you say there are many clues and this is just one of them. but I definitely disagree that it's natural for a random person to call Aiel "so called Aiel" and Taim using that phrase is not a big deal. It is a big deal. Only two characters in the book use that phrase - Taim and Moridin. That fact alone is significant. To leap from the word "dedicated" to the fact that the Aiel were peaceniks in AoL is not natural and nobody else makes that connection not even Aes Sedai. Moiraine wonders about the meaning but she has no idea what the Aiel were dedicated to.

 

also, the story about Aiel origin hardly seems to be common knowledge among wetlanders even after Rand reveals it to the Aiel. the Aiel certainly don't like to talk about the subject even among themselves. Nobody else mentions it onscreen that I can recall. None of the cairhienin or andorans seem to know. they consider teh Aiel savages but that's it. and at best some vague rumors about it would have only just arrived in Caemlyn when Taim shows up. why should he believe them? He is there shortly after Rand took Caemlyn. and Rand got there via a gateway from Cairhien.

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