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is Taim an impostor?


herid
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  1. 1. Is the current Taim the original Taim who declared himself the Dragon?



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relatively unnoticed? how does that follow? but my main point was that he specifically said that he shaved because it's too hot here. he didn't mention some other reason that you are trying to come up with. and the reason he gave was a false one. there is no way around that.

 

Him lying about why he shaved the beard is not surprising. I'm just saying that it is not necessarily untrue. The Aes Sedai and Asha'man don't run around naked just because they can ignore the cold. So shaving the beard based on climate doesn't have to be a lie. That said, I believe it is a lie which is why I gave the different reason for it - He wanted to escape notice, likely because he was up to other shenanigans in Andor before he presented himself to Rand. This is more believable to me than his being a completely different person.

 

so what you are saying is that he shaved to blend in (he didn't really have to btw - Caemlyn is full of foreigners), lied about his real reason for shaving, his lie was exposed twice in the very scene that he gave it and it means nothing.

I'm sorry I don't find this reasonable at all.

besides, as I said, if this is the real Taim, why write in something so strange and convoluted (provided your explanation is correct) at all? RJ said that very little in the books is by accident.

 

I agree, like the little detail of Danelle smirking when Siuan was deposed. I always took that as her being Mesaana because it's such an odd detail to add and never explain.

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It is called a red herring.

 

You are intended to catch on to it, but it does not lead anywhere.

aha, finally an argument that i can't completely refute! well, that could be a red herring but I just can't believe that it is. it's too elaborate and it doesn't feel like an honest red herring. Other red herrings RJ used are very different. there might be a prophecy which seems to have one meaning at first glance but turns out to mean something else in the end. They never involve actually deceiving the reader as this would be doing if it were a red herring.

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the current Taim need not know the original Taim's mannerisms.
Well, if he didn't, this guy acting different to Taim would surely be commented on.
That can be easily obtained by an interrogation and that's what this Taim delivers to prove that he is the real Taim.
Or, more simply, by being Taim.
so out of your three "looks like Taim, acts like Taim, knows what Taim knows" only one is true. one is definitely false (looks like Taim) and one is simply unknown (acts like Taim).
Clearly he does look like Taim - close enough, at least, or no amount of "I shaved" would cover it. Due to the rigours of his journey, Rand overestimated his age by several years, and that coupled with the loss of the beard was enough to throw Bashere off, but it is very quickly disposed with in a way that leaves no doubts - minor differences aside, this guy does look an awful lot like Mazrim Taim.
and you still didn't give any explanation for the lie.
I did in my first post: "we see in the scene he's intorduced that he's willing to tweak Bashere's nose." Try reading.
how is it "in character" ?!
Your response was: "that should be the last thing for him to do in this situation. he almost gets killed as the result." True, but what do we see him do? He taunts Bashere. Should be the last thing for him to do, but it isn't. It is, in fact, exactly what he does - and therefore is in character. Further, you say "Bashere doesn't get angry because of the shaving thing." That's not relevant to anything, really. But after he speaks, his eyes flick to Rand and then back to Bashere "whose face was growing darker by the minute." So Taim's mockery is provoking a reaction from Bashere, even before mention of Musar and Hachari.
and more importantly why it's hidden from the reader and then subtly revealed?
Can you think of a better way to reveal it? "I shaved, Bashere." Liar! thought Rand, that's clearly a TP disguise, you don't fool me imposter.

 

as for why this Taim didn't use a power created beard disguise. He probably could have. But a beard is a physical object and likely harder to maintain as a perfect illusion without some accidents.
He doesn't need to maintain it, not for any length of time - he needs to look most like Taim when he first meets Rand, in order to establish his identity. If Taim wears a beard and this guy shows up beardless, then there's a clear difference. If he shows up bearded, and shaves before we next see him on the other hand, it avoids this issue entirely. Of course, there are other explanations, but they only overcomplicate the issue. All the Taim is an imposter evidence can also be used as Taim is not an imposter evidence - it solves nothing that cannot be solved otherwise, and simpler. There is no reason to accept this theory.

 

But mainly I think that the reason is not an in-story one but an out of story one. This is a deliberate device by the writer to subtly indicate that Taim is an impostor. After all he could have simply said that he shaved in order to make himself less recognizable. It's a perfectly reasonable explanation and it would raise none of the issues I mentioned. Instead he gives a lie, that lie is emphasized twice in the very same scene and later definitely confirmed as a lie. Nothing you said explains any of that.
Actually, I explained all of it - he could have said why he shaved, but he was trying to annoy Bashere (as the quote in your opening post shows), the lie is subtly revealed because that's the best way to do it, and the difference in appearance can be seen as evidence that this is the real Taim - it takes more than an Illusion to cover all the similarities, the plot must grow ever more convoluted. Bashere, someone who has some knowledge of Taim, knows this man is Taim, and identifies him by more than just appearance. The doubts he had are dropped, never mentioned again, as Bashere confirms this man really is Taim. To counter that, you need kidnapping, interrogation, shaving, lies, an excuse for a near perfect disguise, to ignore things RJ said about why Taim came to Caemlyn (such as him being hunted). Actually, I think that might be a good point: "Rand misjudges Taim’s age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted — along with other reasons — and that has a wearing effect on anyone." "Zaela: Did Taim have motives for coming to Andor after he escaped the Aes Sedai?

RJ: Ta-eem, (he said it phonetically) sure, he is a man who can channel. The Aes Sedai see him as a man who can channel. They will hunt him down and gentle him if they can. He has one safe haven in the world. A place where there are more men like him. Just maybe, if there are enough men like him, the Aes Sedai wont be able to come after him." "Sodas: Is there anything you can tell us about Taim's choice to head to Andor after his escape?

RJ: Well, he really didn't have much other choice. He's a man who can channel. At that time, as far as he knows, any Aes Sedai that gets their hands on him will try to gentle him again. But the word is getting around: there are men gathering near Caemlyn, men just like him, and maybe there are enough of them that if they stick together the Aes Sedai will not be able to take them down. So he has no other choice. He can either spend a life on the run or he can enlist. He decided to enlist." So Taim went to Caemlyn because of Rand's amnesty, because that was his only safe haven. If the Shadow captured Taim, interrogated him, and then sent an imposter, why would that imposter be hunted by Bashere's forces, with only one safe haven? He's a man on the run. Unless you want us to think RJ flat out lied three times?

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the current Taim need not know the original Taim's mannerisms.
Well, if he didn't, this guy acting different to Taim would surely be commented on.

 

commented on by whom? there is nobody there who knew the old Taim well.

 

 

and more importantly why it's hidden from the reader and then subtly revealed?
Can you think of a better way to reveal it? "I shaved, Bashere." Liar! thought Rand, that's clearly a TP disguise, you don't fool me imposter.

what are you talking about?! he could have said I shaved because I didn't want to get recognized. that's it. instead he lies (whatever for?) his lie is unnoticed by Rand and by the reader and later revealed in a convoluted way. what is a purpose of all of this from writer's perspective? it has zero bearing on the plot according to you and 99% of the reader should miss the whole thing altogether. That was my question.

 

 

Actually, I explained all of it - he could have said why he shaved, but he was trying to annoy Bashere (as the quote in your opening post shows), the lie is subtly revealed because that's the best way to do it,

ah great, the whole highly elaborate construction was to let Taim annoy Bashere at the first meeting. That makes a lot of sense to me. I think I'll go take lunch then.

 

if he wanted to annoy Bashere he could have said, "hey Bashere, how is it shaking? How are the guys you sent to kill me doing? I'm worried they are not being good servants."

Edited by herid
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the current Taim need not know the original Taim's mannerisms.
Well, if he didn't, this guy acting different to Taim would surely be commented on.

 

commented on by whom? there is nobody there who knew the old Taim well.

 

 

and more importantly why it's hidden from the reader and then subtly revealed?
Can you think of a better way to reveal it? "I shaved, Bashere." Liar! thought Rand, that's clearly a TP disguise, you don't fool me imposter.

what are you talking about?! he could have said I shaved because I didn't want to get recognized. that's it. instead he lies (whatever for?) his lie is unnoticed by Rand and by the reader and later revealed in a convoluted way. what is a purpose of all of this from writer's perspective? it has zero bearing on the plot according to you and 99% of the reader should miss the whole thing altogether. That was my question.

 

 

Actually, I explained all of it - he could have said why he shaved, but he was trying to annoy Bashere (as the quote in your opening post shows), the lie is subtly revealed because that's the best way to do it,

ah great, the whole highly elaborate construction was to let Taim annoy Bashere at the first meeting. That makes a lot of sense to me. I think I'll go take lunch then.

 

if he wanted to annoy Bashere he could have said, "hey Bashere, how is it shaking? How are the guys you sent to kill me doing? I'm worried they are not being good servants."

 

Somewhat telling that you didn't even try to address the last part of Mr Ares post above. The part that just so happens to pretty much tear this theory to shreds.

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the current Taim need not know the original Taim's mannerisms.
Well, if he didn't, this guy acting different to Taim would surely be commented on.

 

commented on by whom? there is nobody there who knew the old Taim well.

 

 

and more importantly why it's hidden from the reader and then subtly revealed?
Can you think of a better way to reveal it? "I shaved, Bashere." Liar! thought Rand, that's clearly a TP disguise, you don't fool me imposter.

what are you talking about?! he could have said I shaved because I didn't want to get recognized. that's it. instead he lies (whatever for?) his lie is unnoticed by Rand and by the reader and later revealed in a convoluted way. what is a purpose of all of this from writer's perspective? it has zero bearing on the plot according to you and 99% of the reader should miss the whole thing altogether. That was my question.

 

 

Actually, I explained all of it - he could have said why he shaved, but he was trying to annoy Bashere (as the quote in your opening post shows), the lie is subtly revealed because that's the best way to do it,

ah great, the whole highly elaborate construction was to let Taim annoy Bashere at the first meeting. That makes a lot of sense to me. I think I'll go take lunch then.

 

if he wanted to annoy Bashere he could have said, "hey Bashere, how is it shaking? How are the guys you sent to kill me doing? I'm worried they are not being good servants."

 

Somewhat telling that you didn't even try to address the last part of Mr Ares post above. The part that just so happens to pretty much tear this theory to shreds.

I read that part. I has no bearing on my theory and certainly doen't tear it to shreds. It simply explains why it would be natural for the real Taim to head to Caemlyn and enlist with Rand. I have absolutely no beef with that. Yes, it would be very natural and that's all that's RJ is saying. He is not saying that this Taim is the real Taim.

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the current Taim need not know the original Taim's mannerisms.
Well, if he didn't, this guy acting different to Taim would surely be commented on.

 

commented on by whom? there is nobody there who knew the old Taim well.

 

 

and more importantly why it's hidden from the reader and then subtly revealed?
Can you think of a better way to reveal it? "I shaved, Bashere." Liar! thought Rand, that's clearly a TP disguise, you don't fool me imposter.

what are you talking about?! he could have said I shaved because I didn't want to get recognized. that's it. instead he lies (whatever for?) his lie is unnoticed by Rand and by the reader and later revealed in a convoluted way. what is a purpose of all of this from writer's perspective? it has zero bearing on the plot according to you and 99% of the reader should miss the whole thing altogether. That was my question.

 

 

Actually, I explained all of it - he could have said why he shaved, but he was trying to annoy Bashere (as the quote in your opening post shows), the lie is subtly revealed because that's the best way to do it,

ah great, the whole highly elaborate construction was to let Taim annoy Bashere at the first meeting. That makes a lot of sense to me. I think I'll go take lunch then.

 

if he wanted to annoy Bashere he could have said, "hey Bashere, how is it shaking? How are the guys you sent to kill me doing? I'm worried they are not being good servants."

 

Somewhat telling that you didn't even try to address the last part of Mr Ares post above. The part that just so happens to pretty much tear this theory to shreds.

I read that part. I has no bearing on my theory and certainly doen't tear it to shreds. It simply explains why it would be natural for the real Taim to head to Caemlyn and enlist with Rand. I have absolutely no beef with that. Yes, it would be very natural and that's all that's RJ is saying. He is not saying that this Taim is the real Taim.

 

So when RJ says that Taim "has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn" and "has been rode hard and put away wet" he actually means the "fake" Taim, that no one has any reason to be hunting whatsoever!?!? Or are you implying that your theory is even more convoluted in that the individual posing as Taim would allow himself to be hunted for the sake of his appearance when he reaches Caemlyn? It really just doesnt hold up.

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the current Taim need not know the original Taim's mannerisms.
Well, if he didn't, this guy acting different to Taim would surely be commented on.

 

commented on by whom? there is nobody there who knew the old Taim well.

 

 

and more importantly why it's hidden from the reader and then subtly revealed?
Can you think of a better way to reveal it? "I shaved, Bashere." Liar! thought Rand, that's clearly a TP disguise, you don't fool me imposter.

what are you talking about?! he could have said I shaved because I didn't want to get recognized. that's it. instead he lies (whatever for?) his lie is unnoticed by Rand and by the reader and later revealed in a convoluted way. what is a purpose of all of this from writer's perspective? it has zero bearing on the plot according to you and 99% of the reader should miss the whole thing altogether. That was my question.

 

 

Actually, I explained all of it - he could have said why he shaved, but he was trying to annoy Bashere (as the quote in your opening post shows), the lie is subtly revealed because that's the best way to do it,

ah great, the whole highly elaborate construction was to let Taim annoy Bashere at the first meeting. That makes a lot of sense to me. I think I'll go take lunch then.

 

if he wanted to annoy Bashere he could have said, "hey Bashere, how is it shaking? How are the guys you sent to kill me doing? I'm worried they are not being good servants."

 

Somewhat telling that you didn't even try to address the last part of Mr Ares post above. The part that just so happens to pretty much tear this theory to shreds.

I read that part. I has no bearing on my theory and certainly doen't tear it to shreds. It simply explains why it would be natural for the real Taim to head to Caemlyn and enlist with Rand. I have absolutely no beef with that. Yes, it would be very natural and that's all that's RJ is saying. He is not saying that this Taim is the real Taim.

 

So when RJ says that Taim "has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn" and "has been rode hard and put away wet" he actually means the "fake" Taim, that no one has any reason to be hunting whatsoever!?!? Or are you implying that your theory is even more convoluted in that the individual posing as Taim would allow himself to be hunted for the sake of his appearance when he reaches Caemlyn? It really just doesnt hold up.

RJ was asked to explain Taim's appearance. what was he expected to say? "yeh, guys, this Taim is a fake, you got me?" he gives a reasonable explanation why real Taim would behave and look that way. I see absolutely nothing in his explanation that bears on my theory.

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He would have said RAFO is Taim was fake.

this is a very subjective argument. RJ certainly said a lot about Taim in interviews. He even went so far as to openly deny that Taim is Demandred on multiple occasions. He never denied that he is Moridin though. how are we supposed to interpret that then? He might have been better off just saying RAFO in regard to Taim's identity at all times. since he didn't and spoke of Taim so often, his willingness to answer this question is really not indicative of anything IMO.

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I cannot think of any situation where RJ said this much which would be deliberately misleading (and could even be seen as lying). It seems to me that he would simply RAFO it if it was important. Clearly, it wasn't.

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the current Taim need not know the original Taim's mannerisms.
Well, if he didn't, this guy acting different to Taim would surely be commented on.
commented on by whom? there is nobody there who knew the old Taim well.
You don't need to know him well, only to have met him.

 

and more importantly why it's hidden from the reader and then subtly revealed?
Can you think of a better way to reveal it? "I shaved, Bashere." Liar! thought Rand, that's clearly a TP disguise, you don't fool me imposter.

what are you talking about?!

The reason for the subtle reveal.
he could have said I shaved because I didn't want to get recognized.
He could, but I direct you to the fact he was mocking Bashere.
that's it. instead he lies (whatever for?) his lie is unnoticed by Rand and by the reader and later revealed in a convoluted way.
Again, he is mocking Bashere. That is explicitly stated in the text. One could take from that that he was serious in what he said, but not why he said it (as you clearly did, hence your brilliance in stumbling across this subtle revelation), or you could take it that the whole thing was mockery - the comment on the heat was never intended to be a serious answer, and no one takes it as such. Including Rand, hence the "lie" never being noticed. Rand never thought this was a serious reason, and therefore there was no lie for him to notice.
what is a purpose of all of this from writer's perspective?
Taim's mockery or his lack of beard? As I say, the differences in appearance are to reinforce certainty of Taim's identity - it cannot simply be an Illusion, it has to be more than that as this guy knows stuff Taim knows. Either that's explained by Taim being Taim, exactly as he claims to be and all the evidence indicates, or it requires he be kidnapped, tortured, impersonated, by Moridin, all of this with nothing, not one hint, not one line in the text to support it - and still requires you explain the absence of a beard! The mockery is Taim's character. 99% of the readers wouldn't notice because there is nothing to notice - everything is exactly as it appears, Taim really is Taim.

 

Somewhat telling that you didn't even try to address the last part of Mr Ares post above. The part that just so happens to pretty much tear this theory to shreds.
I read that part. I has no bearing on my theory and certainly doen't tear it to shreds. It simply explains why it would be natural for the real Taim to head to Caemlyn and enlist with Rand. I have absolutely no beef with that. Yes, it would be very natural and that's all that's RJ is saying. He is not saying that this Taim is the real Taim.
It is telling that you didn't even bother to address it, not even to say it wasn't relevant, not until someone called you on that "oversight." What RJ is saying is why the guy in Caemlyn went to Caemlyn. His answers make sense if it the real Taim. They make no sense at all if he is Moridin. After all, Moridin can Travel, he has a fortress in the Blight, he has armies of Trollocs, Dreadlords, Darkfriends. The idea that he might decide to disguise himself as Taim and flee across half a continent is, to put it mildly, completely bloody ridiculous. RJ was asked why Taim went there, to the response I quoted. If the real reason was "because he's Moridin and was looking to get close to Rand" then I can understand RJ wanting to cover that up with a RAFO, but the answers he gave make no sense in that context - it requires, essentially, that RJ flat out lied about Taim's reasons for going to Caemlyn. He wasn't talking about hypothetical reasons why he might have gone there, he was asked why Taim went there. If Taim is an imposter, then he didn't go there, if he is really Moridin the reasons given don't make sense. You have to ignore that in favour of an elaborate theory that actually explains nothing. No, I'm not buying it. RJ's quotes, coupled with the evidence in the book, seriously count against this theory.

 

 

He would have said RAFO is Taim was fake.
this is a very subjective argument. RJ certainly said a lot about Taim in interviews. He even went so far as to openly deny that Taim is Demandred on multiple occasions. He never denied that he is Moridin though. how are we supposed to interpret that then? He might have been better off just saying RAFO in regard to Taim's identity at all times. since he didn't and spoke of Taim so often, his willingness to answer this question is really not indicative of anything IMO.
I've just checked through the interview database, and maybe I missed it, or Terez missed a quote somewhere, but I didn't see any questions on Taim being Moridin. If RJ was never asked, he never had the opportunity to shoot it down, so that's how I would interpret it - Taimidin was never put to RJ. I did only check the RJ quotes, not the Sanderson stuff.

 

Let us look again at the points from your opening post:

1. Bashere doesn't recognise Taim. This has an explanation in text and out of it, so Taim being Taim requires fewer assumptions here. As for why this was done, the knowledge Taim has establishes his identity better than appearance alone, as it cannot be just Illusion. On the other hand, we could overcomplicate things with kidnap, interrogation and a second-rate disguise. No, Taim is Taim explains this point better.

 

2. Lack of beard and reason given. Taim is mocking Bashere, so we are not meant to take is excuse seriously. Taim being Taim explains this just fine, him being an imposter requires us to then ask why did he use a beardless disguise and lie about the lack of a beard? In other words, him being an imposter requires us to ask the exact same questions as him being Taim, so we make further assumptions and gain nothing from them.

 

3. Taunting Bashere is a stupid thing to do. Perhaps, but that is true regardless of whether he is the real deal or an imposter.

 

4. The height discrepancy. Already acknowledged as a mistake.

 

So Taim being an imposter does nothing to explain the points raised in the opening post that isn't already explained as easily, and frequently more so, by Taim being Taim. Occam's Razor says your theory is crap. In short, you present no evidence for this theory, and you are forced to twist the quotes presented to you in order to make it viable. It does not work. Taim is Taim is Taim is not Moridin.

 

I have one further question: Why Taim? I don't mean why go undercover and try to do whatever it is moridin is trying to do in your crackpot theory, I mean why is he doing so as Taim, as opposed to, say, Corlan Dashiva, a farmer from the Black Hills? The advantage of the latter is that no-one can say "he's not Dashiva!", but they can say "he's not Taim", because Taim is a real person, and anyone who knows the real Taim represents a threat to the integrity of the disguise.

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the current Taim need not know the original Taim's mannerisms.
Well, if he didn't, this guy acting different to Taim would surely be commented on.
commented on by whom? there is nobody there who knew the old Taim well.
You don't need to know him well, only to have met him.

 

and more importantly why it's hidden from the reader and then subtly revealed?
Can you think of a better way to reveal it? "I shaved, Bashere." Liar! thought Rand, that's clearly a TP disguise, you don't fool me imposter.

what are you talking about?!

The reason for the subtle reveal.
he could have said I shaved because I didn't want to get recognized.
He could, but I direct you to the fact he was mocking Bashere.
that's it. instead he lies (whatever for?) his lie is unnoticed by Rand and by the reader and later revealed in a convoluted way.
Again, he is mocking Bashere. That is explicitly stated in the text. One could take from that that he was serious in what he said, but not why he said it (as you clearly did, hence your brilliance in stumbling across this subtle revelation), or you could take it that the whole thing was mockery - the comment on the heat was never intended to be a serious answer, and no one takes it as such. Including Rand, hence the "lie" never being noticed. Rand never thought this was a serious reason, and therefore there was no lie for him to notice.
what is a purpose of all of this from writer's perspective?
Taim's mockery or his lack of beard? As I say, the differences in appearance are to reinforce certainty of Taim's identity - it cannot simply be an Illusion, it has to be more than that as this guy knows stuff Taim knows. Either that's explained by Taim being Taim, exactly as he claims to be and all the evidence indicates, or it requires he be kidnapped, tortured, impersonated, by Moridin, all of this with nothing, not one hint, not one line in the text to support it - and still requires you explain the absence of a beard! The mockery is Taim's character. 99% of the readers wouldn't notice because there is nothing to notice - everything is exactly as it appears, Taim really is Taim.

 

Somewhat telling that you didn't even try to address the last part of Mr Ares post above. The part that just so happens to pretty much tear this theory to shreds.
I read that part. I has no bearing on my theory and certainly doen't tear it to shreds. It simply explains why it would be natural for the real Taim to head to Caemlyn and enlist with Rand. I have absolutely no beef with that. Yes, it would be very natural and that's all that's RJ is saying. He is not saying that this Taim is the real Taim.
It is telling that you didn't even bother to address it, not even to say it wasn't relevant, not until someone called you on that "oversight." What RJ is saying is why the guy in Caemlyn went to Caemlyn. His answers make sense if it the real Taim. They make no sense at all if he is Moridin. After all, Moridin can Travel, he has a fortress in the Blight, he has armies of Trollocs, Dreadlords, Darkfriends. The idea that he might decide to disguise himself as Taim and flee across half a continent is, to put it mildly, completely bloody ridiculous. RJ was asked why Taim went there, to the response I quoted. If the real reason was "because he's Moridin and was looking to get close to Rand" then I can understand RJ wanting to cover that up with a RAFO, but the answers he gave make no sense in that context - it requires, essentially, that RJ flat out lied about Taim's reasons for going to Caemlyn. He wasn't talking about hypothetical reasons why he might have gone there, he was asked why Taim went there. If Taim is an imposter, then he didn't go there, if he is really Moridin the reasons given don't make sense. You have to ignore that in favour of an elaborate theory that actually explains nothing. No, I'm not buying it. RJ's quotes, coupled with the evidence in the book, seriously count against this theory.

 

 

He would have said RAFO is Taim was fake.
this is a very subjective argument. RJ certainly said a lot about Taim in interviews. He even went so far as to openly deny that Taim is Demandred on multiple occasions. He never denied that he is Moridin though. how are we supposed to interpret that then? He might have been better off just saying RAFO in regard to Taim's identity at all times. since he didn't and spoke of Taim so often, his willingness to answer this question is really not indicative of anything IMO.
I've just checked through the interview database, and maybe I missed it, or Terez missed a quote somewhere, but I didn't see any questions on Taim being Moridin. If RJ was never asked, he never had the opportunity to shoot it down, so that's how I would interpret it - Taimidin was never put to RJ. I did only check the RJ quotes, not the Sanderson stuff.

 

Let us look again at the points from your opening post:

1. Bashere doesn't recognise Taim. This has an explanation in text and out of it, so Taim being Taim requires fewer assumptions here. As for why this was done, the knowledge Taim has establishes his identity better than appearance alone, as it cannot be just Illusion. On the other hand, we could overcomplicate things with kidnap, interrogation and a second-rate disguise. No, Taim is Taim explains this point better.

 

2. Lack of beard and reason given. Taim is mocking Bashere, so we are not meant to take is excuse seriously. Taim being Taim explains this just fine, him being an imposter requires us to then ask why did he use a beardless disguise and lie about the lack of a beard? In other words, him being an imposter requires us to ask the exact same questions as him being Taim, so we make further assumptions and gain nothing from them.

 

3. Taunting Bashere is a stupid thing to do. Perhaps, but that is true regardless of whether he is the real deal or an imposter.

 

4. The height discrepancy. Already acknowledged as a mistake.

 

So Taim being an imposter does nothing to explain the points raised in the opening post that isn't already explained as easily, and frequently more so, by Taim being Taim. Occam's Razor says your theory is crap. In short, you present no evidence for this theory, and you are forced to twist the quotes presented to you in order to make it viable. It does not work. Taim is Taim is Taim is not Moridin.

 

I have one further question: Why Taim? I don't mean why go undercover and try to do whatever it is moridin is trying to do in your crackpot theory, I mean why is he doing so as Taim, as opposed to, say, Corlan Dashiva, a farmer from the Black Hills? The advantage of the latter is that no-one can say "he's not Dashiva!", but they can say "he's not Taim", because Taim is a real person, and anyone who knows the real Taim represents a threat to the integrity of the disguise.

ok, about the RJ quotes. as I said, they are perfectly logical from his point of view and prove nothing. He is not lying to us. he is simply telling us that a real Taim would have a good reason behave as he did. On the other hand we have the following BS quote

 

Towers of Midnight book tour 6 November 2010, Bailey's Crossroads, VA - Robert Mee reporting

 

 

Taim may not be a standard Third-Ager. Brandon wouldn’t say any further because he has about 5 chapters revolving around the Black Tower to write for the beginning of the next book and he didn’t want to spoil, so it was half a RAFO.

 

If Taim is just Taim then according to you BS is lying here? why would he ever say anything like that if Taim was just Taim?

 

And your explanation about mocking still doesn't make sense. So Taim wants to mock Bashere even though it's a stupid thing to do and he ought to know it. why doesn't he say that he shaved to make himself less recognizable and then proceed to mock bashere in exactly the same way as he did? what is gained from writer's perspective by making him lie, accentuate the lie twice in the same scene and then finally reveal it as a lie in such a way that most readers would not notice? this makes no sense and nothing you said explains any of this.

 

lastly, why would Moridin masquerade as Taim? that's quite obvious. Taim is an experienced channeler willing to help and Rand is certainly looking for help at this point. he wants to be Rand's advisor when he shows up. that's made pretty clear. It's Rand's idea to make him train Asha'man. Taim knows nothing about it when he shows up. being an advisor is a perfectly good role. it's also in total agreement with Ishy's MO. He did the exact same thing with Hawkwing. Posing as Taim would also explain his great strength in OP which he wouldn't have to hide then. Such powerful channelers as Taim don't come around too often. Coming to Rand as a farmer from Black Hills is laughable. why would Rand take him on in any role of importance or even give him an audience?

Edited by herid
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Uh, what?

 

Taim is not a standard Third-Ager, no -- but that does not mean he was from the Age of Legends. It could just as easily mean he is an unusual Third-Ager... and there are a thousand different possible reasons why that would be true. Brandon could have simply meant that Taim is a self-taught channeler. That is certainly far from the standard Third-Ager. But more likely he meant something else, something which makes Taim almost unique -- such as having been trained personally by some of the Chosen, perhaps?

 

And Rand would give him an audience. He has proclaimed his amnesty. He would take him to the farm. If "Moridin" had come to him claiming to be a wilder from the Black Hills, Rand would have accepted it, and perhaps given him the same position he gave Taim -- he needed a teacher for the men and it couldn't be himself. All he would have to do to gain an audience would be to claim greater knowledge of the One Power than Rand has -- or at least longer use. There is no real need to masquerade as Taim -- yes, he gains more recognition as a channeler that way, but that does not outweigh the disadvantage in being an actual person. The other Chosen all fabricated their Third Age personae because it is far easier to do so than it is to take the place of an existing person.

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Uh, what?

 

Taim is not a standard Third-Ager, no -- but that does not mean he was from the Age of Legends. It could just as easily mean he is an unusual Third-Ager... and there are a thousand different possible reasons why that would be true. Brandon could have simply meant that Taim is a self-taught channeler.

why in the world would he refer to Taim as a non standard 3rd ager if he was simply a self taught channeler? that makes no sense. that fact that he refers to him as a 3rd ager at all is highly suggestive. this is a very strange way to describe someone if he was born in the 3rd age normally as those around him. why would he ever do that?

name one good reason out the thousands you seem to have in mind.

 

And Rand would give him an audience. He has proclaimed his amnesty. He would take him to the farm. If "Moridin" had come to him claiming to be a wilder from the Black Hills, Rand would have accepted it, and perhaps given him the same position he gave Taim -- he needed a teacher for the men and it couldn't be himself. All he would have to do to gain an audience would be to claim greater knowledge of the One Power than Rand has -- or at least longer use. There is no real need to masquerade as Taim -- yes, he gains more recognition as a channeler that way, but that does not outweigh the disadvantage in being an actual person. The other Chosen all fabricated their Third Age personae because it is far easier to do so than it is to take the place of an existing person.

 

oh please. what would happen if he showed up as a farmer from Black Hills who taught himself to channel somehow and is extremely strong in the power? do you not think that Rand would find that just a wee bit suspicious? If he showed up not being able to channel then Rand would not talk to him. showing up as Taim practically guarantees him a prominent place. Rand does the same with Logain too. It's only natural.

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Uh, what?

 

Taim is not a standard Third-Ager, no -- but that does not mean he was from the Age of Legends. It could just as easily mean he is an unusual Third-Ager... and there are a thousand different possible reasons why that would be true. Brandon could have simply meant that Taim is a self-taught channeler.

why in the world would he refer to Taim as a non standard 3rd ager if he was simply a self taught channeler? that makes no sense. that fact that he refers to him as a 3rd ager at all is highly suggestive. this is a very strange way to describe someone if he was born in the 3rd age normally as those around him. why would he ever do that?

name one good reason out the thousands you seem to have in mind.

 

He does - Taim being personally tutored by one of the Forsaken. That would make him a non-standard 3rd ager.

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Uh, what?

 

Taim is not a standard Third-Ager, no -- but that does not mean he was from the Age of Legends. It could just as easily mean he is an unusual Third-Ager... and there are a thousand different possible reasons why that would be true. Brandon could have simply meant that Taim is a self-taught channeler.

why in the world would he refer to Taim as a non standard 3rd ager if he was simply a self taught channeler? that makes no sense. that fact that he refers to him as a 3rd ager at all is highly suggestive. this is a very strange way to describe someone if he was born in the 3rd age normally as those around him. why would he ever do that?

name one good reason out the thousands you seem to have in mind.

 

He does - Taim being personally tutored by one of the Forsaken. That would make him a non-standard 3rd ager.

why would he mention the 3rd age at all if that was the case? For example, whenever I see people referring to a character to as 3rd ager or second ager on the forums it emphasizes the age they were born in. I don't believe I's seen it used in any other context. that's only natural. why would BS use it so differently? at the very least that would be pretty misleading on his part as it certainly creates an impression that Taim might not be from this age. He is already pretty special, he was a false dragon and he runs the BT. to say that he is a pretty unique individual goes without saying.

Edited by herid
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I'm still of the opinion that Taim and Bashere are both DFs (at the very least) and are acting together, and that little charade of Bashere professing not to recognise Taim without his beard was exactly that - a charade, designed to hide their alliance from Rand. I've rambled on at length about that in another thread so I won't bore the pants off you (again!) here.

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The man now calling himself Mazrim Taim is not the same man who declared himself to be the Dragon.

 

Even granting that Jordan seldom used 1 word when 5 would do, and that there are any number of dead ends and unnecessary descriptions in this series, herid is right that there is simply no reason for Jordan to go into the specifics of Taim's appearance, and the fact that people who knew the real Taim are doubtful, unless that difference in appearance matters to the plot.

 

The appeals to authority, I find less than convincing. Those being cited as authorities know the text well, to be sure. But their interpretations of the text have frequently been proven wrong. More frequently than not, in fact. Go to Theoryland and see for yourself.

 

The real Taim is still out there, somewhere.

Edited by randsc
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Taim is an impostor. Or a proxy at the least. I think it is possible he could be original Taim but now he's Moridin's proxy, but I doubt that.

 

He has way too much Second Age knowledge/mannerisms about him: so-called Aiel, anti-sweating trick, can test for the power. Plus the hole Sigil thing. If he isn't Moridin (which I doubt), then he's a proxy of some sort.

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Uh, what?

 

Taim is not a standard Third-Ager, no -- but that does not mean he was from the Age of Legends. It could just as easily mean he is an unusual Third-Ager... and there are a thousand different possible reasons why that would be true. Brandon could have simply meant that Taim is a self-taught channeler.

why in the world would he refer to Taim as a non standard 3rd ager if he was simply a self taught channeler? that makes no sense. that fact that he refers to him as a 3rd ager at all is highly suggestive. this is a very strange way to describe someone if he was born in the 3rd age normally as those around him. why would he ever do that?

name one good reason out the thousands you seem to have in mind.

 

...

 

Try reading the part that you omitted quoting where I did just that. Taim has likely been trained personally by one or more of the Chosen; most probably Ishamael or Demandred, if not both, since he has mannerisms reminiscent of Demandred, and Ishamael would be the only Chosen free to teach him when he began to channel.

 

And Rand would give him an audience. He has proclaimed his amnesty. He would take him to the farm. If "Moridin" had come to him claiming to be a wilder from the Black Hills, Rand would have accepted it, and perhaps given him the same position he gave Taim -- he needed a teacher for the men and it couldn't be himself. All he would have to do to gain an audience would be to claim greater knowledge of the One Power than Rand has -- or at least longer use. There is no real need to masquerade as Taim -- yes, he gains more recognition as a channeler that way, but that does not outweigh the disadvantage in being an actual person. The other Chosen all fabricated their Third Age personae because it is far easier to do so than it is to take the place of an existing person.

 

oh please. what would happen if he showed up as a farmer from Black Hills who taught himself to channel somehow and is extremely strong in the power? do you not think that Rand would find that just a wee bit suspicious? If he showed up not being able to channel then Rand would not talk to him. showing up as Taim practically guarantees him a prominent place. Rand does the same with Logain too. It's only natural.

There is no reason why he should be "extremely strong" -- we know that channelers can hide strength in the Power; RJ confirmed it. He could claim to be of middling strength. Taim certainly hides his strength from Rand already -- there is no sense of strain when he embraces the Source at Rand's command.

 

Even then, there are male wilders of immense strength already - Logain, for one. It is not inconceivable that Rand would meet another. (Indeed, Taim's story necessitates that he is one.)

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The appeals to authority, I find less than convincing. Those being cited as authorities know the text well, to be sure. But their interpretations of the text have frequently been proven wrong. More frequently than not, in fact. Go to Theoryland and see for yourself.

 

I wasn't appealing to the authorities (Luckers or Terez) to get their view on this debate but to help provide the quote I remember regarding the Taim height discrepancy being a mistake that was corrected in later versions.

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My vote: Taim is Taim. I honestly didn't buy it when he submited to Rand during my first read through, so him being up to something sinister is not a suprise for me and doesn't require and elaborate exlplination.

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Yes, the Taim height business at first meeting in LoC was altered in later editions.

Don't have either edition of the book with me, nor am I an authority but I do remember the change.

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ok, about the RJ quotes. as I said, they are perfectly logical from his point of view and prove nothing. He is not lying to us. he is simply telling us that a real Taim would have a good reason behave as he did.

 

LOL You truly believe that RJ was given us hypothetical reasons for why the real Taim would arrive and look like he did? That is if it was actually the real Taim which it wasn't? :rolleyes:

 

Again it has already been said but Moridin has zero reason with all the means at his disposal to allow himself to be harried across a continent. RJ said flat out "Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn"

 

Towers of Midnight book tour 6 November 2010, Bailey's Crossroads, VA - Robert Mee reporting

 

 

Taim may not be a standard Third-Ager. Brandon wouldn’t say any further because he has about 5 chapters revolving around the Black Tower to write for the beginning of the next book and he didn’t want to spoil, so it was half a RAFO.

 

If Taim is just Taim then according to you BS is lying here? why would he ever say anything like that if Taim was just Taim?

 

Because most Third-Ager's are not trained by one of the Chosen, would be the simplest answer to my mind. As for the lying bit you are grasping at straws if you attempt to compare this with RJ's statement about Taim.

Edited by Suttree
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