Egwene Compelled by Aran'gar?

[mikael]

I don't know either way, but I'll add an answer to why she would be compelled to be the Amyrlin rather than to never hunt the BA. Compulsion works much better if the victim is compelled to do something they really want to do rather than something thats the opposite of what they want, Lex Liandrin.

[FarShainMael]

So here we see Eg thinking that not just Rand, but the Pattern itself, has got it wrong!!!!

This is more than just arrogance, more than megalomania. It's up there with Lanfear's wish to challenge the Creator Himself.

 

Not exactly. The ta'veren effect could just as likely be negative than positive (it can be either a miraculous escape or a freak fatal accident, for example). Just because someone is caught by it, doesn't mean he'd make the right decision under its influence. So it's not that arrogant really.

 

And we know that at least once before Egwene herself felt Rand's ta'veren effect on her, which led to her almost telling him the location of the Tower in Exile. Yet she didn't consider "Wait, obviously the Pattern wants me to tell Rand about Salidar, so I better do it". She stuck to her guns and kept the secret. That was before she met Halima.

 

The ta'veren effect only manifests itself when the ta'veren is physically present. When Eg is thinking about Nynaeve, it's long after Rand has departed, so her thought processes should have returned to normal.

 

 

@herid: I do agree that if Eg is indeed under compulsion, it must be very light. Not because Halima is useless at the weave; I don't agree with your comments about BS, since Graendal did not in fact see Aran'gar's weave:

 

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

Graendal would have deduced that a weave was being used from its effect on the man. She did not have to see the weaves themselves.

 

Halima would have used very light compulsion because she could not risk its effects on Eg being similarly detected by people around her - Rand, for example. And no, the Compulsion would not have caused headaches, but I said earlier that messing with Eg's dreams was likely not the only thing that Halima was doing. Also, I agree about her character growth. Neither of these excludes the possibility of Compulsion having been used on her.

 

I'm not finding excuses for Egwene - I've met a few control-freaks in my time - but making deductions from the text. One could even make the point that Halima did not have to try very hard in using Compulsion to make Egwene even more of a control-freak than she already was!

[David Selig]

The ta'veren effect only manifests itself when the ta'veren is physically present. When Eg is thinking about Nynaeve, it's long after Rand has departed, so her thought processes should have returned to normal.

OK, but how does contradict what I said? My point was that Egwene herself resisted a ta'veren effect by Rand and that didn't make her think of herself as too arrogant or in the wrong for the not going along the way Rand's ta'veren powers tried to push her. So for Egwene Rand's ta'veren effect doesn't necessary leads to right decisions, and she was of that opinion before she ever came close to Halima, since the incident in question was in Cairhien before Egwene went to Salidar.

[herid]

 

 

 

The ta'veren effect only manifests itself when the ta'veren is physically present. When Eg is thinking about Nynaeve, it's long after Rand has departed, so her thought processes should have returned to normal.

 

There are many ways to explain this which are a great deal more natural that assuming that this somehow implies that Egwene is under compulsion

 

1. the simplest explanation is that Egwene might not know exactly how the ta'veren effect works.

2. Rand's position was at least somewhat reasonable and his ta'veren nature just helped him along to convince Nynaeve. once convinced she didn't necessarily have to start doubting her decision once away from him.

3. somewhat sloppy writing. there is enough of that in the books. characters argue with less than perfect logic all the time.

 

@herid: I do agree that if Eg is indeed under compulsion, it must be very light. Not because Halima is useless at the weave; I don't agree with your comments about BS, since Graendal did not in fact see Aran'gar's weave:

 

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

Graendal would have deduced that a weave was being used from its effect on the man. She did not have to see the weaves themselves.

I don't agree with this. that's not at all how it is described. It says

 

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

I read it as saying that she saw the process not just the end result. and how would she know that it was both sick and complex? she could see nothing about the weaves. at the very least something would have been said about how she is able to see it. This is a clear mistake. The arguments to the contrary are just excuses.

Halima would have used very light compulsion because she could not risk its effects on Eg being similarly detected by people around her - Rand, for example.

I disagree. Halima channeled saidin. Rand was not anywhere around nor was he likely to come by any time soon. She did not hesitate to channel saidin when it suited her. She killed a number of people and she definitely used saidin on Egwene. I'm not sure what the story is with those headaches but in the scene when Egwene orders her out those headaches start right away. that likely means that Halima channeled at her right then with Siuan present. She never seemed to worry about anybody noticing any of that. why should she be afraid to compel Egwene a bit more if she could? she was burning to find out what Egwene was scheming to do. The likelihood of the Aes Sedai detecting anything would be extremely small. Graendal says that the ability to read compulsion is very rare and Halima channels saidin which would make it even more difficult. Nynaeve and Elayne were compelled by Moggy (who channels saidar unlike Halima) and none of the Aes Sedai in Salidar noticed anything at all about either of them in all the time they were there.

[Hyronimus]

Is it possible that the headaches (caused through the dream) were JUST a way for Halima to get closer to Egwene?

 

In a former life she was quite the observer of social interaction, it seems more in her mo to try and pull political strings.

which we know she succeeded at, look at the state of the rebels from Salidar to Murandy.

Also, egwene was the shadows choice, they were happy to have the 'girl' amyrlin as it helped to split an already devided tower. I think Lelaine and Romanda would have been the targets as the aes sedai trying to fix things (however misguided as we know them to be) Egwene has been a surprise. no one thought she would succeed except for a desperate ex-amyrlin.

 

All I'm thinking is that cumpulsion might not have been considered nessesary. As far as the shadow was concerned there was no major change of heart needed, like Elza's loyalty, Morgase's love, Grendael's pets etc.

 

I've been looking for more, but I don't think it's there.

 

Also Egwene has a right to be wary (even if it does result in some -in character-stubborness) considering the meeting in the tower and the uslessness of the sitters when faced with Rand.

 

I'm guessing her world of dreams training saved her there.

[Didgya]

Two things:

 

The past tense is not "compulsed," it is "compelled." It's an irregular verb form. Sorry, but seeing "compulsed" over and over again was making my eyes bleed.

 

Secondly, I think it's fairly obvious that Aran'gar did compel Egwene during those massages, but I don't think the insistence on being Amyrlin is a reflection of that compulsion. IIRC, we're all but told that Aran'gar switched Egwene's opinions on the Oaths... which limits the AS both in their lifespans and in what they're capable of doing... and I think other minor things were twitched. Egwene's didn't really insist on remaining Amyrlin... she even told Elaida that if they both would step down, and the Tower would be Healed, Egwene would do so... which is why she was better than Elaida. Egwene was willing to step aside if there were a better option.

 

The insisting that Nynaeve and Elayne recognize her authority, and even Gawyn, made sense. She had to get them to recognize her authority in public because they've been ignoring her authority, undermining her position.

I could'nt agree more!

One other thought, Jordan could have had another plot thread originally. Having Egwene's compulsion factor more into the story but it ended up not fitting. Sometimes we forget that this is fiction :)

[Phelix]

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

I read it as saying that she saw the process not just the end result. and how would she know that it was both sick and complex? she could see nothing about the weaves. at the very least something would have been said about how she is able to see it. This is a clear mistake. The arguments to the contrary are just excuses.

 

You are forgetting that Aran'gar was weaving together with Delana (right? Not one of the other BA?)... Aran'gar used the AS's connection to saidar and wove her compulsion with both sides of the Power. Graendal, as an expert in issues of the Mind, including Compulsion, would have recognized the mixing of saidar and the gaps that implied saidin.

 

I'm not misremembering the scene, am I?

[herid]

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

I read it as saying that she saw the process not just the end result. and how would she know that it was both sick and complex? she could see nothing about the weaves. at the very least something would have been said about how she is able to see it. This is a clear mistake. The arguments to the contrary are just excuses.

 

You are forgetting that Aran'gar was weaving together with Delana (right? Not one of the other BA?)... Aran'gar used the AS's connection to saidar and wove her compulsion with both sides of the Power. Graendal, as an expert in issues of the Mind, including Compulsion, would have recognized the mixing of saidar and the gaps that implied saidin.

 

I'm not misremembering the scene, am I?

there is zero indication that Aran'gar and Delana are linked when they do this. They simply do it one after the other. first, Delana, then Aran'gar. Delana sureley could not have done it linked as a man must lead in a circle of two. That would mean that they'd have to link after Delana was done. here is how the process is described.

 

"You next," she said to Aran'gar once Delana had finished. "Something

convoluted. I want al'Thor and his Aes Sedai to find the touch of a man

on the mind." That would confuse them further.

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex

Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

There is clearly no linking involved.

[Terez]

Yup, you're misremembering. They weren't linked.

 

Edit: missed herid's post somehow.

[Phelix]

Memory fail on my part.

 

Though, it doesn't make sense based on what we already know. *shrug* Meh.

[FarShainMael]

The ta'veren effect only manifests itself when the ta'veren is physically present. When Eg is thinking about Nynaeve, it's long after Rand has departed, so her thought processes should have returned to normal.

OK, but how does contradict what I said? My point was that Egwene herself resisted a ta'veren effect by Rand and that didn't make her think of herself as too arrogant or in the wrong for the not going along the way Rand's ta'veren powers tried to push her. So for Egwene Rand's ta'veren effect doesn't necessary leads to right decisions, and she was of that opinion before she ever came close to Halima, since the incident in question was in Cairhien before Egwene went to Salidar.

 

But did she resist it? Isn't she doing exactly what Rand (and the Pattern) want - assembling armies?

[FarShainMael]

 

 

 

The ta'veren effect only manifests itself when the ta'veren is physically present. When Eg is thinking about Nynaeve, it's long after Rand has departed, so her thought processes should have returned to normal.

 

There are many ways to explain this which are a great deal more natural that assuming that this somehow implies that Egwene is under compulsion

 

1. the simplest explanation is that Egwene might not know exactly how the ta'veren effect works.

2. Rand's position was at least somewhat reasonable and his ta'veren nature just helped him along to convince Nynaeve. once convinced she didn't necessarily have to start doubting her decision once away from him.

3. somewhat sloppy writing. there is enough of that in the books. characters argue with less than perfect logic all the time.

 

1. Eg's PoV demonstrates that she knows exactly how it works - the Pattern shapes itself around the person.

2. It's Eg's thought processes I was talking about, not Nyn's.

3. Anything people don't agree with can be dismissed as 'sloppy writing'!

 

@herid: I do agree that if Eg is indeed under compulsion, it must be very light. Not because Halima is useless at the weave; I don't agree with your comments about BS, since Graendal did not in fact see Aran'gar's weave:

 

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

Graendal would have deduced that a weave was being used from its effect on the man. She did not have to see the weaves themselves.

I don't agree with this. that's not at all how it is described. It says

 

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

I read it as saying that she saw the process not just the end result. and how would she know that it was both sick and complex? she could see nothing about the weaves. at the very least something would have been said about how she is able to see it. This is a clear mistake. The arguments to the contrary are just excuses.

 

You read it one way, I read it another. Who's right? Perhaps we'll find out in AMoL.

 

Halima would have used very light compulsion because she could not risk its effects on Eg being similarly detected by people around her - Rand, for example.

I disagree. Halima channeled saidin. Rand was not anywhere around nor was he likely to come by any time soon. She did not hesitate to channel saidin when it suited her. She killed a number of people and she definitely used saidin on Egwene. I'm not sure what the story is with those headaches but in the scene when Egwene orders her out those headaches start right away. that likely means that Halima channeled at her right then with Siuan present. She never seemed to worry about anybody noticing any of that. why should she be afraid to compel Egwene a bit more if she could? she was burning to find out what Egwene was scheming to do. The likelihood of the Aes Sedai detecting anything would be extremely small. Graendal says that the ability to read compulsion is very rare and Halima channels saidin which would make it even more difficult. Nynaeve and Elayne were compelled by Moggy (who channels saidar unlike Halima) and none of the Aes Sedai in Salidar noticed anything at all about either of them in all the time they were there.

 

Halima could be sure that Rand and the Amyrlin would meet, sooner or later. The Shadow wanted Eg to be Amyrlin, so they could use her as a puppet; and they knew the Dragon would face the Amyrlin and know her anger. (ACoS Prologue, Alviarin present with Elaida.)

[herid]

 

 

 

The ta'veren effect only manifests itself when the ta'veren is physically present. When Eg is thinking about Nynaeve, it's long after Rand has departed, so her thought processes should have returned to normal.

 

There are many ways to explain this which are a great deal more natural that assuming that this somehow implies that Egwene is under compulsion

 

1. the simplest explanation is that Egwene might not know exactly how the ta'veren effect works.

2. Rand's position was at least somewhat reasonable and his ta'veren nature just helped him along to convince Nynaeve. once convinced she didn't necessarily have to start doubting her decision once away from him.

3. somewhat sloppy writing. there is enough of that in the books. characters argue with less than perfect logic all the time.

 

1. Eg's PoV demonstrates that she knows exactly how it works - the Pattern shapes itself around the person.

 

 

I'm talking about the effects of a ta'veren lingering once out of his presence. why wouldn't they? How would Egwene know that they wouldn't? come to think of it how do you know that they never would? Mat trussed Verin around when he needed her when he was hundreds of miles away.

 

2. It's Eg's thought processes I was talking about, not Nyn's.

Me too. I'm describing how Egwene would think about Nynaeve's thought process. Egwene thinks that Nynaeve was nudged to her decision by Rand's ta'veren nature. but the decision itself was not so outrageous as for example the windfinders agreeing to Mat's demands to help Nynaeve and Elayne or being tied up to pack horses. So Nynaeve would not necessarily recognize this decision as not her own natural choice. and she is nothing if not stubborn and Egwene knows it very well. Once she decided something should would stick to it. That's how Egwene might think.

 

3. Anything people don't agree with can be dismissed as 'sloppy writing'!

 

sure. but this is a very minor logic imperfection (which might not be a logic imperfection at all) and you are drawing extremely far reaching conclusions out of it. I gave you examples of much stronger logic imperfections like Gawyn's presumption of guilt that Rand killed Morgase. Here is another one that makes me wince every time I read it. When Karede talks to Loune in " A cup of kaf"

 

 

"Over the last week." Loune said, "there have been four sizeable engagements and upwards of sixty ambushes, skirmishes and raids, many quite large, all spread out across three hundred miles." That encompassed almost the entire map. His voice was stiff. Plainly, given a choice, he would have told Karede nothing. That half-step gave him none, however. "There must be six or eight different armies involved on the other side. The night after the first large engagement saw nine major raids, each forty to fifty miles from the site of the battle. Not small armies, either, at least not taken altogether, but we can't find them, and nobody has any eyeless idea where they came from. Whoever they are, they have damane, those Aes Sedai, with them, and maybe those cursed Asha'man. Men have been torn apart by explosions our damane say weren't caused by the Power."

 

Karede sipped his kaf. The man was not thinking. If the enemy had Aes Sedai and Asha'man, they could use the thing called Traveling to move as far as they wished in a step. But if they could do that, why had they not used it to step all the way to safety with their prize?

 

-KoD, Ch 34

Uhm, no, Karede (or rather mr Jordan), it's you who is not thinking. what prize?! Loune knows nothing about Tuon's kidnapping. his argument is completely logical from his point of view.

 

 

 

@herid: I do agree that if Eg is indeed under compulsion, it must be very light. Not because Halima is useless at the weave; I don't agree with your comments about BS, since Graendal did not in fact see Aran'gar's weave:

 

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

Graendal would have deduced that a weave was being used from its effect on the man. She did not have to see the weaves themselves.

I don't agree with this. that's not at all how it is described. It says

 

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

I read it as saying that she saw the process not just the end result. and how would she know that it was both sick and complex? she could see nothing about the weaves. at the very least something would have been said about how she is able to see it. This is a clear mistake. The arguments to the contrary are just excuses.

 

You read it one way, I read it another. Who's right? Perhaps we'll find out in AMoL.

of course. But I'd just like to add one thing. even if one can contrive some argument such as the one you suggest explaining this away, it will be just that - pretty contrived. the vast majority of WoT readers don't hang around any websites such as this one and would just think this a really bad mistake. that was my immediate reaction the very first time I read this scene. all the current wording does is make the writer look foolish. If this subject was carefully thought out more explanation would have been given to what it is that Graendal is actually seeing. That's why I'm certain this was a mistake. but as you say, hopefully, we'll see what's what in AMoL.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Halima would have used very light compulsion because she could not risk its effects on Eg being similarly detected by people around her - Rand, for example.

I disagree. Halima channeled saidin. Rand was not anywhere around nor was he likely to come by any time soon. She did not hesitate to channel saidin when it suited her. She killed a number of people and she definitely used saidin on Egwene. I'm not sure what the story is with those headaches but in the scene when Egwene orders her out those headaches start right away. that likely means that Halima channeled at her right then with Siuan present. She never seemed to worry about anybody noticing any of that. why should she be afraid to compel Egwene a bit more if she could? she was burning to find out what Egwene was scheming to do. The likelihood of the Aes Sedai detecting anything would be extremely small. Graendal says that the ability to read compulsion is very rare and Halima channels saidin which would make it even more difficult. Nynaeve and Elayne were compelled by Moggy (who channels saidar unlike Halima) and none of the Aes Sedai in Salidar noticed anything at all about either of them in all the time they were there.

 

Halima could be sure that Rand and the Amyrlin would meet, sooner or later. The Shadow wanted Eg to be Amyrlin, so they could use her as a puppet; and they knew the Dragon would face the Amyrlin and know her anger. (ACoS Prologue, Alviarin present with Elaida.)

several things about this. First, Alviarin only told Mesaana about it. Mesaana could have easily kept that info to herself.

 

 

The Forsaken don't tell each other more than they must and just love to keep secrets from each other. This is particularly true in case of Mesaana and Aran'gar who are working in close proximity and are quite hostile to each other.

 

 

"Jealous?" Aran'gar murmured, and laughed lightly at his scowl. "Where is the girl kept. Mesaana? She didn't say."

 

Mesaana's big blue eyes narrowed. They were her best feature, yet only ordinary when she frowned. "Why do you want to know? So you can 'rescue' her yourself? I won't tell you."

 

KoD, Ch 3

I would think it's more likely that Mesaana kept such important info as that foretelling to herself.

But even if Halima did know about this foretelling, why would it stop her? It speaks of some indeterminate time in the future and she has quite pressing issues at hand right now. By your argument she is using some light compulsion on Egwene. how does she know that Rand can read it at all? and if he can read it he might be able to read light compulsion that she is using already. also, compulsion that Moggy used on Elayne and Nynaeve was quite mild. She just made them tell her what they know and then made them forget their meeting. Halima should have done the same if she could.

[FarShainMael]

I'm talking about the effects of a ta'veren lingering once out of his presence. why wouldn't they? How would Egwene know that they wouldn't? come to think of it how do you know that they never would? Mat trussed Verin around when he needed her when he was hundreds of miles away.

 

While I agree that the ta'veren effect occurred while Mat was not physically present, it was a direct effect, not a lingering one from a previous encounter between Mat and Verin.

 

I'm describing how Egwene would think about Nynaeve's thought process. Egwene thinks that Nynaeve was nudged to her decision by Rand's ta'veren nature. but the decision itself was not so outrageous as for example the windfinders agreeing to Mat's demands to help Nynaeve and Elayne or being tied up to pack horses. So Nynaeve would not necessarily recognize this decision as not her own natural choice. and she is nothing if not stubborn and Egwene knows it very well. Once she decided something should would stick to it. That's how Egwene might think.

 

But Egwene should be thinking 'The Pattern wants Nynaeve to support Rand, so that's OK. Perhaps I'd better think again.' She didn't. She thinks what the Pattern 'wants' is secondary to what Egwene wants. And as I said before, that goes way beyond simple arrogance.

 

First, Alviarin only told Mesaana about it. Mesaana could have easily kept that info to herself.

 

The Forsaken don't tell each other more than they must and just love to keep secrets from each other. This is particularly true in case of Mesaana and Aran'gar who are working in close proximity and are quite hostile to each other.

 

I agree that the Forsaken are selfish and hoard their secrets. But do we know that Alviarin only told Mesaana? She has SH's mark on her (CoT 21), and SH is also Aran'gar's 'boss' (LoC Prologue), so he is probably extracting information from both of them. (If he isn't, he's not doing his job!)

 

But even if Halima did know about this foretelling, why would it stop her? It speaks of some indeterminate time in the future and she has quite pressing issues at hand right now. By your argument she is using some light compulsion on Egwene. how does she know that Rand can read it at all? and if he can read it he might be able to read light compulsion that she is using already. also, compulsion that Moggy used on Elayne and Nynaeve was quite mild. She just made them tell her what they know and then made them forget their meeting. Halima should have done the same if she could.

 

SH's instructions, perhaps?

[zidfrekle]

Don't think it's feasible that Egwene is under any weaves of compulsion at this point, Rand would have sensed the Saidin residue/weaves on her if this was the case. He had plenty of time to notice it in their meeting in ToM. Besides, she gives too much of an impression that she doesnt know what to do.... if she were under compulsion, she wouldnt have to worry about it she would just be pre-programmed to do whatever someone wanted.

[Terez]

Rand has little skill with Compulsion, and he can't detect it - or at least, he asks Nynaeve to do it for him in TGS. Graendal thinks that it must be Nynaeve who can detect her Compulsion probably because she knows Lews Therin couldn't have done it.

[zidfrekle]

Nynaeve is also with Egwene at the Tower now.....

[Terez]

This is true. Just saying.

[herid]

I'm talking about the effects of a ta'veren lingering once out of his presence. why wouldn't they? How would Egwene know that they wouldn't? come to think of it how do you know that they never would? Mat trussed Verin around when he needed her when he was hundreds of miles away.

 

While I agree that the ta'veren effect occurred while Mat was not physically present, it was a direct effect, not a lingering one from a previous encounter between Mat and Verin.

we don't know that there is any difference. and Rand is the strongest ta'veren ever. who knows how long his "lingering" effect last and how far they spread.

 

I'm describing how Egwene would think about Nynaeve's thought process. Egwene thinks that Nynaeve was nudged to her decision by Rand's ta'veren nature. but the decision itself was not so outrageous as for example the windfinders agreeing to Mat's demands to help Nynaeve and Elayne or being tied up to pack horses. So Nynaeve would not necessarily recognize this decision as not her own natural choice. and she is nothing if not stubborn and Egwene knows it very well. Once she decided something should would stick to it. That's how Egwene might think.

 

But Egwene should be thinking 'The Pattern wants Nynaeve to support Rand, so that's OK. Perhaps I'd better think again.' She didn't. She thinks what the Pattern 'wants' is secondary to what Egwene wants. And as I said before, that goes way beyond simple arrogance.

that is just how you think Egwene should think. as I said there are many logical interpretations of what's happened. I really don't want to keep arguing this point. all in all I consider Egwene's reasoning here to be pretty logical. It may be imperfect and she is certainly arrogant. what I don't see here is a slightest indication that this must be because Egwene is compelled and is unable to think rationally. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

First, Alviarin only told Mesaana about it. Mesaana could have easily kept that info to herself.

 

The Forsaken don't tell each other more than they must and just love to keep secrets from each other. This is particularly true in case of Mesaana and Aran'gar who are working in close proximity and are quite hostile to each other.

 

I agree that the Forsaken are selfish and hoard their secrets. But do we know that Alviarin only told Mesaana? She has SH's mark on her (CoT 21), and SH is also Aran'gar's 'boss' (LoC Prologue), so he is probably extracting information from both of them. (If he isn't, he's not doing his job!)

ok, that's a good point. but this is a chain of hypothetical. to support your argument we have to assume that Alviarin did indeed told SH (she might not have - he might not have asked her about it as the event is fairly far in the past). you further assume that SH (or the DO or, perhaps, Moridin) would tell Aran'gar. again this may or may not have happened. DO's motivations are mysterious as Verin told us and quite often even important info is not shared with everybody. That we've seen many times.

 

 

But even if Halima did know about this foretelling, why would it stop her? It speaks of some indeterminate time in the future and she has quite pressing issues at hand right now. By your argument she is using some light compulsion on Egwene. how does she know that Rand can read it at all? and if he can read it he might be able to read light compulsion that she is using already. also, compulsion that Moggy used on Elayne and Nynaeve was quite mild. She just made them tell her what they know and then made them forget their meeting. Halima should have done the same if she could.

 

SH's instructions, perhaps?

Perhaps. But again, this is just a pure hypothetical at this point, not supported by direct evidence. When you start stacking too many of those in a row the end result is usually wrong.

 

 

 

 

Don't think it's feasible that Egwene is under any weaves of compulsion at this point, Rand would have sensed the Saidin residue/weaves on her if this was the case. He had plenty of time to notice it in their meeting in ToM. Besides, she gives too much of an impression that she doesnt know what to do.... if she were under compulsion, she wouldnt have to worry about it she would just be pre-programmed to do whatever someone wanted.

It's not totally clear to me that Rand can actually see compulsion. If he can then you are right and the whole thing is moot. Rand would never ever let Egwene run around with a mysterious compulsion on her mind doing light knows what. As I said above, at the very least he would have asked Nynaeve to remove that compulsion from Egwene when Nynaeve went to the Tower.

 

But I don't think we can assume that he can read it. It seems to be a very rare talent according to Graendal. when Rand asked Nynaeve to remove compulsion from Kerb he mentioned that he has no talent in that area.

 

"I have little skill with this kind of weaving," Rand said with a wave of his hand. "I suspect that you can remove Compulsion, if

you try. It is similar to Healing, in a way. Use the same weave that creates Compulsion, but reverse it."

 

-tGS, Ch33

 

He meant here that he can not undo compulsion but that skill seems to be related to being able to see compulsion on somebody's mind in the first place. when Rand concluded that Kerb is under compulsion he seemed to be relying on the fact that Kerb is able to withstand his ta'veren effect rather than on actually seeing anything on Kerb's mind. I'm not sure on this but that what it looks like to me.

 

Of course, Kerb was compelled by Graendal who uses saidar so perhaps that was the reason Rand didn't see her compulsion directly. It may have been different with Aran'gar's compulsion created with saidin.

[Durinax]

Nynaeve is also with Egwene at the Tower now.....

takes delving to discover it, and unless egwene takes sick nyn wont just delve her to locate it

 

thsi could be the big thing for the shadow, could cause a major rift in the light side if the orders where to oppose rand

[haloun]

i used to think the compulsion thing was true, but then I realized, the more skilled you are at with the power, the heavier compulsiono has to be, i think i even remember a quote from RJ or maybe BS saying that the stronger you are in innate poewr ability the better shield you have against compulsion, which is why instead of just walking into the aes sedai's rooms and compelling them to do something, they turned them using the 13X13 or with a mind trap. as for rand not seeing the compulsion if it was there, it was a lot older then her being compelled at that moment. the only way he could have noticed it is if he delved, or was there when it happened. but as for my original thought on their protection, that is why Morgase was able to escape rahvin. when he wasnt right there she was able to shrug it off a little, enough to get out of there. that she still has lingering effects of his last command is simply because she isnt very powerful, but the fact that she could get out in the first is because she can channel.

 

so maybe egwene is, and maybe she isnt under compulsion, I thought at first that she was, that halima'gar was compelling her, not so sure now, but either way both sides have good arguments, but as for graendel seeing halima's weaves, she didnt, that was authoric voice, not Graendel voice. he doesnt say she saw the weaves wrap around his mind, nor does it say anything like that, it doesnt have her state that she saw them, it simply states what halima did. we see that other times in the books as well even when RJ was writing, and i think that team jordan would have caught a huge mistake like a woman seeing a mans weaves. sorry. :|

[herid]

i used to think the compulsion thing was true, but then I realized, the more skilled you are at with the power, the heavier compulsiono has to be, i think i even remember a quote from RJ or maybe BS saying that the stronger you are in innate poewr ability the better shield you have against compulsion,

Have a quote on this? I can't find anything like this in the interview database.

 

 

which is why instead of just walking into the aes sedai's rooms and compelling them to do something, they turned them using the 13X13 or with a mind trap. as for rand not seeing the compulsion if it was there, it was a lot older then her being compelled at that moment. the only way he could have noticed it is if he delved, or was there when it happened. but as for my original thought on their protection, that is why Morgase was able to escape rahvin. when he wasnt right there she was able to shrug it off a little, enough to get out of there. that she still has lingering effects of his last command is simply because she isnt very powerful, but the fact that she could get out in the first is because she can channel.

 

so maybe egwene is, and maybe she isnt under compulsion, I thought at first that she was, that halima'gar was compelling her, not so sure now, but either way both sides have good arguments, but as for graendel seeing halima's weaves, she didnt, that was authoric voice, not Graendel voice. he doesnt say she saw the weaves wrap around his mind, nor does it say anything like that, it doesnt have her state that she saw them, it simply states what halima did. we see that other times in the books as well even when RJ was writing, and i think that team jordan would have caught a huge mistake like a woman seeing a mans weaves. sorry. :|

team jordan missed plenty of other mistakes (like Mat telling Moiraine that Morgase is dead) so I wouldn't rely on this one. ToM was clearly rushed to publication so this was probably inevitable.

 

as for what exactly Graendal was supposed to have seen. In addition to what I said earlier, it's unclear to me that she should have seen anything even after Aran'gar was finished, at least not directly. There is no free space in a human head so we are not talking about a physical object lying on someone's brain. It must be spirit or something similar. Then she should not have seen anything at all or so it seems to me. at least it's not clear. and in any case, as I said, the subject is very murky to say the least. it should have been explained better. as it is it looks like a really bad mistake to a casual reader which is what most readers are. that makes me think that it really was a mistake or it would have been handled better.

 

Lastly, nothing I've seen suggested so far gives a satisfactory explanation why Halima so stubbornly refused to compel Egwene to tell Halima of her plans when she really really wanted to know them. Moggy did it on Elayne and Nynaeve in a similar situation with no hesitation and Nynaeve is much stronger than Egwene in the power.

[FarShainMael]

Perhaps that would have taken stronger Compulsion than Halima wanted to use.

 

On an earlier point:

 

when Rand concluded that Kerb is under compulsion he seemed to be relying on the fact that Kerb is able to withstand his ta'veren effect rather than on actually seeing anything on Kerb's mind. I'm not sure on this but that what it looks like to me.

 

Consider this:

 

Rand shook his head. 'If you ask the men at the jail, they'll tell you this one was slow of thought and rarely spoke to them. There was no real person in this head, only layered weaves of Compulsion. Instructions cleverly designed to wipe whatever personality this poor wretch had and replace it with a creature who would act exactly as Graendal wished. I've seen it dozens of times."

 

Dozens of times? Nynaeve thought with a shiver. You've seen it, or Lews Therin saw it? Which memories rule you right now?

 

So even if Rand is not able to read the presence of Compulsion directly, he can certainly recognise its effects.

[herid]

Perhaps that would have taken stronger Compulsion than Halima wanted to use.

it's a one time thing. Just make Egwene tell her of her plans. why is this supposed to be strong? she doesn't need to program Egwene to do anything.

 

 

 

 

On an earlier point:

 

when Rand concluded that Kerb is under compulsion he seemed to be relying on the fact that Kerb is able to withstand his ta'veren effect rather than on actually seeing anything on Kerb's mind. I'm not sure on this but that what it looks like to me.

 

Consider this:

 

Rand shook his head. 'If you ask the men at the jail, they'll tell you this one was slow of thought and rarely spoke to them. There was no real person in this head, only layered weaves of Compulsion. Instructions cleverly designed to wipe whatever personality this poor wretch had and replace it with a creature who would act exactly as Graendal wished. I've seen it dozens of times."

 

Dozens of times? Nynaeve thought with a shiver. You've seen it, or Lews Therin saw it? Which memories rule you right now?

 

So even if Rand is not able to read the presence of Compulsion directly, he can certainly recognise its effects.

 

I rather think this refers to Rand seeing many victims of such compulsion in the past not that he was able to read compulsion himself.

[Annia]

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

I read it as saying that she saw the process not just the end result. and how would she know that it was both sick and complex? she could see nothing about the weaves. at the very least something would have been said about how she is able to see it. This is a clear mistake. The arguments to the contrary are just excuses.

 

I actually read the bolded part as narrator's description of events.