The hunters for the Black Ajah

[deathgate]

RJ hasn't been writing anti-feminist. He argues in his work against feminine rule (which shows to have many flaws). But the cooperation of men and women in the AoL is praised and used as an absolute ideal situation. I wonder if he re-instated this in his notes for the end of AMoL.

 

I've never thought he was anti-female either. More about revealing that absolute power corrupts any group. There are examples of abuse of power from the countries run by men (Tear) as well.

[bronnt]

RJ hasn't been writing anti-feminist. He argues in his work against feminine rule (which shows to have many flaws). But the cooperation of men and women in the AoL is praised and used as an absolute ideal situation. I wonder if he re-instated this in his notes for the end of AMoL.

 

Actually it's a counter argument for sexism in general. WoT in the TA is an example of a world built on reverse sexism (as we would see it) where the stupid stereotypes and superstitions are always undermining. There are some patriarchal societies which aren't looked up too favorably either (like Tear). The most idealized societies in the plot are always the ones where there's some shared or mixed leadership by both genders, such as the Two Rivers and the Aiel.

 

The only really society that has built-in sexism which seems to be written of favorably (or at least, mostly so) is the Sea Folk, entirely matriarchal. There's certainly flaws amongst the Sea Folk, but for the most part, you see them making fun of Aes Sedai and plenty of other continental characters.

[moratcorlm]

The most idealized societies in the plot are always the ones where there's some shared or mixed leadership by both genders, such as the Two Rivers and the Aiel.

...which are both quite sexist. Just ask Egwene and Mat. Nor are any of the so-called 'anti-sexist' societies ever particularly internally consistent or well-explained, economically. Actually, I take that back: Far Madding is, as are the Sea Folk.

 

Jordan always combined his sort of 19th, early 20th-century feminism (mixed with sexual-revolution ethics and the idea that every woman was in some way his wife) with a sizable wink at the reader. "Yeah, this is a ham-fisted allegory about real life injustices. But seriously, look what happens when you put broads into power." Which hardly goes unnoticed – either by the large number of people who loathe the series or by a decent fraction of those who love it (see any random Egwene thread).

[haloun]

as far as the BA hunters, it started with egwene, elayne, and nynaeve. that egwene finally needs help in the end doesnt surprise me, and not for the fact that it is egwene but because the BA has been hiding for 2000 years as stated earlier. as for the homosexual issues, when you decide that star wars is a horrible series because homosexuality doesnt come up, or the enders game series, then you can talk about the WOT being odd for not having homosexual relationships. it isnt a porn novel it is a fantasy novel. go buy a manga if you want that kind of stuff. it is published by tor not playboy. and for the sexism. it isnt a sexist novel either, the purpose is to show the importance of equality. NOT to say women (or men) are incompetent, just that either one in full power will have major issues.

[Mr Ares]

as for the homosexual issues, when you decide that star wars is a horrible series because homosexuality doesnt come up, or the enders game series, then you can talk about the WOT being odd for not having homosexual relationships. it isnt a porn novel it is a fantasy novel. go buy a manga if you want that kind of stuff. it is published by tor not playboy.

So heterosexual relationships and lesbian relationships (and polygamy) can crop up in a fantasy novel, but a romantic relationship between two men is exclusively the provnce of pornography or manga? WoT has a lot of characters, a lot of relationships between those characters, but while girl on girl relationships can be mentioned, the fact that some guys might like guys can only barely be alluded to in a very indirect fashion?

[Tud]

Returning to the point of the thread..The hunt for the BA...I think you have to give the hunters some slack..Remember that they had no idea who was or was not a BA (Hence everything they did had to be very circumspect), they had only been hunting the BA for a matter of weeks and the BA were set up in such a way that no outsider would have much of a chance of rooting them out. As proof, remember they enduced the Red Ajah to murder Sein Vaiyu (Siuan's predecessor) because she was getting to close to uncovering their activities. Without Verin's infiltration, the odds are very great that no one would have been able to uncover them until it was too late.

 

Also, regarding the purge..Egwene's actions were hasty, but they weren't stupid..She just found out that the BA had inflitrated her camp, she had been removed from the tower against her will (If not unjustifiably since Siuan and the others didn't know she wasn't in danger of being executed nd she did allow them that option) and now had to order an immediate attack..No way would you want to go into battle with the bA at your back. Her only sound choice was to strike hard and quickly, which she did.And she was very successful..She didn't miss over fifty sisters in the camp (That figure was for the BA in the tower who were forewarned); she missed only about 19..out of over seventy.On top of that, by her actions she managed to flush out the entire BA..Either their dead or their indentities are known.

 

To my mind, that was a very successful operation. She kills about seventy and drives the rest out of the tower. A complete decapitation with minimal losses on her side.

 

The comment about them becoming new dreadlord is a bit puzzling..They were going to be Dreadlords anyway, so what's the big deal? After all, at least this way, the forces of light know who they are and that's a lot better than having them stab you in the back in a surprise attack.

 

As for RJ being homophobic, I tend to disagree. Just because he doesn't include something doesn't mean anything at all. After all, how many straight sex scenes occur in the book? Not very many, at all. How are they written? Very, very circumspectly.It seem's to me that RJ just wasn't comfortable writing about sex, which is fine with me..If it doesn't add anything to the story, don't need it.

 

As for the sexism charge,again I've never seen it that way. For one thing, his female characters are among the strongest in all sc-fi.I always liked that he wrote his female characters as strong, confident and accomplished. The full equals of his male characters..Do the two sexes butt heads and have cliched opinions of each other? Yes...Name me anyone who doesn't. Men have irritated women and vice versa throughout all of history. Doesn't make them sexist, it makes them real.

 

Better that, then the cardboard manner in which other writers have presented their secondary actors..

 

And besides that, if you're going to hold Rj to that standard, what about all those sitcoms which have the women as the competent one and the guy as an idiot. Can you name me one such show, where the woman was the idiot (And for the record, I hated I Love Lucy for that very reason and I was a very, very small kid when I formed that opinion.).

 

All of thisis, of course, just my opinion..Except for the points that are based on known facts (taking out over seventy BA, etc).

 

tud

 

tud

[Jon Paul]

They gave Egwene a fundamental support base amongst leading members of the Tower.