a timeline issue in ToM

[herid]

I found a timeline issue in ToM which I can not reconcile. I don't think it has been mentioned yet.

(I originally posted this in the general WoT forum by mistake for which I apologize).

 

In CH8 Mat walks in Caemlyn and observes this

 

The paving stones were damp from a recent shower, though those clouds had passed by

and—remarkably—left the sky open to the air.

 

This pegs the moment to Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount. That happened at least a day (maybe more) after the reunification of the Tower. Later that day Mat talks to Teslyn and they talk of the rumors of the tower reunification and the seanchan attack on the Tower. That means that actually at least a few days have passed since the reunification for those rumors to reach Caemlyn.

The next day Mat sees the Aes Sedai off and tells Joline that he is going to write a letter to Elayne.

Some time later (CH 11) (presumably at least a day, as I don't think post in those times was that efficient) Elayne gets that letter from Mat. However, in the same scene where she gets the letter she also discusses Duhara's shenanigans and acts as if the Tower has not been unified yet and Elaida is still in charge.

 

Aes Sedai or not, she was a representative of Elaida, and

Elayne intended to have nothing to do with her.

Duhara wasn't likely to return to the White Tower, no

matter how often Elayne suggested that she do so. To go back would be to

present Elaida with empty hands and a hostile Andor.

yet, at this time Elayne should be well aware that the Tower has been unified. Even Teslyn and Joline (who don't have a gateway connection to the Tower) heard of it already. It's beyond reason that Elayne has not.

[moratcorlm]

Chapter 8 needs to have happened before Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount, since we know that the dragons were test-fired at approximately that time (and probably beforehand, since the clouds were around then). Sanderson gave a strange and possibly nonsensical answer to the question of the prescient rumors about the Tower and the invasion of the Borderlands (which I'm pretty damn sure happened following Rand's victory over the Shadow's seduction strategy on Dragonmount, and we know, per Ituralde, couldn't have started more than a few days earlier at the most) that essentially boiled down to 'sometimes rumors get things right.'

 

2) I said something to the effect that many on the forums have challenged (I think the exact words I used were “giving him crap”) about the chronology, especially with regards to Mat. I guess it wasn’t a question as much as an interrogative lilt to my voice…

 

He responded by saying that he has a “detailed and precise” chronology off of which he works. He admitted however that he is not the real “chronology person” on Team Jordan, but those people assure him that “I am right on” with regards to the chronology. He then addressed a number of the concerns:

-first- Rumors: he said that rumors are just rumors. About Trolloc attacks, specifically, he said that “Trollocs have been attacking, or invading in various places for months” and that rumors abound in all sorts of forms about them.

 

With regard to the White Tower attack- I prompted this one a little, and he said that they are simply rumors which have coalesced from multiple rumors together, nothing related specifically to the real attack adding that “in the Wheel of Time rumors sometimes have a tendency to double-back on themselves” turning into truth eventually.

As for the horse riding in Caemlyn, I asked him specifically about Rand seeing Mat and Thom on horses in Caemlyn, but Mat in Chapter 8 not taking his horse into the city, and he responded by saying that Rand didn’t see Mat in this specific scene and assured me that all that would work out in the rest of the book.

 

He did admit that there has been one “hitch” found in The Gathering Storm as per chronology that will be changed in upcoming editions. If I remember correctly he said Mat is roughly two weeks behind where he was meant to be and explained that Mat’s position in time at the end of The Gathering Storm was supposed to be two weeks earlier than it was portrayed as being.

It's been noted elsewhere that we know the Blight was, in fact, suspiciously quiet for months.

[herid]

Chapter 8 needs to have happened before Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount, since we know that the dragons were test-fired at about that time (and probably beforehand, since the clouds were around then). Sanderson's people gave a strange answer to the question of the prescient rumors about the Tower and the invasion of the Borderlands that essentially boiled down to 'sometimes rumors get things right.'

Prescient rumors?! Rumors that the tower has been reunified, Egwene was victorious AND that flying monsters have attacked the tower? that's a really lame explanation IMO. It stretches credulity beyond what should be allowed.

Also, even forgetting the rumors, what of the clouds breaking in CH8?

[moratcorlm]

Who knows. Maybe Rand got laid.

[herid]

Who knows. Maybe Rand got laid.

ROFL! I admit I don't have a comeback for that one.

[Lynander]

I think Brandon, after chapter 8 was released to the public and prior to ToM getting released, said that these were just rumors. Chapter 8 should be happening before Veins of Gold.

 

As far as the clouds go, it could be from Mat's ta'vereness - possibly an indication that their ta'veren powers are growing (just guessing here)

[TheDecline01]

Same here. I've assumed that since Rand never got to Caemlyn as far as we know, the clouds breaking over the city would be from Mat's doing. We don't have any hint to that however, but it seems to me like a reasonable explanation. The ta'verens working stronger and stronger together as the Last Battle approaches.

[herid]

I think Brandon, after chapter 8 was released to the public and prior to ToM getting released, said that these were just rumors. Chapter 8 should be happening before Veins of Gold.

 

As far as the clouds go, it could be from Mat's ta'vereness - possibly an indication that their ta'veren powers are growing (just guessing here)

This is of course a matter of opinion but I don't find this explanation reasonable at all. Everywhere else in the story clouds breaking is specifically linked to Rand and hist transformation. All of a sudden it's Mat doing it for absolutely no reason?

[rambling]

This is of course a matter of opinion but I don't find this explanation reasonable at all. Everywhere else in the story clouds breaking is specifically linked to Rand and hist transformation. All of a sudden it's Mat doing it for absolutely no reason?

 

Agree with you there - I think the patches of sunshine are caused by Rand moving around.

We know he has big gaps in his timeline and he must have been doing something all this time, take ch.15 - we're told he's gone off to fetch something but not what or where.

Usually we're told Elayne knows roughly where Rand is but there is one specific mention of a time when she does not - the bond can be blocked.

Another time she feels a sudden powerful warmth through the bond and the clouds clear but Rand does not show (ch.45)

[rand4747]

Rand probably does alot of moving round and he just visits somewhere for a short time, to do something or another, or maybe just look around.ay.

[jemron]

Yeah, I took it to mean that Mat is having an effect on the surrounding environment just like Rand but to a smaller degree. Just like how the food doesn't spoil as quickly/often around Perrin.

[Canis Rufus]

Yeah, I took it to mean that Mat is having an effect on the surrounding environment just like Rand but to a smaller degree. Just like how the food doesn't spoil as quickly/often around Perrin.

 

This is the same way I read it. I figured each of the boys carries the same affects to differing degrees.

[Guest guljons]

Does Mat not say that he has already sent one letter to Elayne?

And then in the Elayne chapter she receives that letter which would mean that that chapter happens before Mat's.

Atleast that is what I thought when I read the book, because I saw this time issue and this was my explanation for myself.

[moratcorlm]

Does Mat not say that he has already sent one letter to Elayne?

And then in the Elayne chapter she receives that letter which would mean that that chapter happens before Mat's.

I'm losing track of what all the "that"s are referring to, but the letter Mat writes in TOM9 is the same one Elayne receives in TOM11. The first letter never made it past Norry.

[Lord D]

This does look like an Oops on Sanderson's part. The book is complex with time lines, since Perrin and Mat's time lines are well behind Rand's for much of the book. Isn't there also a chapter where Egwene tells Elayne what's been going on at the WT in TAR?

[herid]

This does look like an Oops on Sanderson's part.

That's what I think too at least as far as clouds breaking in CH8 moment is concerned. But even then Mat's timeline is still very strained. while thinking of the above issue I noticed that if we assume that Rand's epiphany happens after the testing of the Dragons then that means that the time between Mat striking a bargain with Verin and his trip to the TG is a lot more than 30 days. By the time the dragons are tested Mat has been in Cayemlin for quite some time (I'd say at least ten days). He had to write one letter to Elayne, wait a few days and stew that there is no answer, write another letter, meet Elayne, start up Dragon production, let Aludra test the first one and then set up the test that Elayne attends. From the Dragons test it's at least 30 days till the meeting at the Field of Merrilor which happens at the same time as Mat's trip to free Moiraine. So that's at least 40 days from the time he gets that letter from Verin. This is possible but somewhat strange. Mat previously made clear that he would wait only as long as his promise to Verin required (and burn her letter afterwards). One can argue that he didn't have a gateway but he could have certainly asked Elayne or the Kin. He accepted Sumeko's gateway when fighting the gholam. why not ask her for a gateway to help save Moiraine.

 

The book is complex with time lines, since Perrin and Mat's time lines are well behind Rand's for much of the book. Isn't there also a chapter where Egwene tells Elayne what's been going on at the WT in TAR?

The one I remember is much later when Egwene tells her about the battle with Mesaana.

[TheAngryDruid]

While I agree about BS' comments about the rumours in CH8 to be complete BS, I do have a bit to add on the clouds being parted.

 

I think you guys are making a mountain out of molehill, and/or it was just some sloppy writing by BS, or the clouds aren't quite as perpetual/universal as some have thought.

 

First off, there is nothing like a ring around Rand after VoG. Or around Caemlyn after VoG because of Rand's bond with Elayne. This clearness doesn't persist. There is no ring. Notice the rain the night Mat talks to Birgitte and Elayne tries her gambit on the Black Ajah captives. And the rain on the stone that night, and Mat has been in Caemlyn a long time.

 

Again, two possible interpretations. One, it is just a fluke weather pattern, the entire sky mat not be cloud-covered ALL the time, everywhere. Just more and more. Again, in the same passage, the paving stones are wet from a recent shower. There is no ring of sunshine here. It doesn't rain when Rand is around, there are no clouds.

 

Second, BS just messed up and was a bit too loosey-goosey here.

 

I tend to go with #1. But either way, this isn't the same Rand/Elayne phenomena we've observed before. And Mat's taveren-ness doesn't seem a good explanation because it doesn't stay clear, nor does the same phenomenon happen around Perrin.

 

As per the timeline, Chapter 8 is well before VoG. There well may be a timeline issue, but it more with Verin/Egwene that with Rand. We know from Mat's POV's AFTER this that Rand is pre-VoG.

[David Selig]

First off, there is nothing like a ring around Rand after VoG. Or around Caemlyn after VoG because of Rand's bond with Elayne. This clearness doesn't persist. There is no ring. Notice the rain the night Mat talks to Birgitte and Elayne tries her gambit on the Black Ajah captives.

That's because this happened before VoG. After VoG there's a ring of clouds above Caemlyn and the sun shines over the city. And since the same happened in Teat while Min was there after VoG and before Rand came back, it's highly likely it's because of Elayne's bond to Rand.

[rambling]

That's because this happened before VoG. After VoG there's a ring of clouds above Caemlyn and the sun shines over the city. And since the same happened in Teat while Min was there after VoG and before Rand came back, it's highly likely it's because of Elayne's bond to Rand.

It's also quite easy to shoehorn Avindha's bit of sunshine in Rhuidean into the same timeframe. I'm taking it as a specific effect of VoG on Rand's women.

[herid]

While I agree about BS' comments about the rumours in CH8 to be complete BS, I do have a bit to add on the clouds being parted.

 

I think you guys are making a mountain out of molehill, and/or it was just some sloppy writing by BS, or the clouds aren't quite as perpetual/universal as some have thought.

 

First off, there is nothing like a ring around Rand after VoG. Or around Caemlyn after VoG because of Rand's bond with Elayne. This clearness doesn't persist. There is no ring. Notice the rain the night Mat talks to Birgitte and Elayne tries her gambit on the Black Ajah captives. And the rain on the stone that night, and Mat has been in Caemlyn a long time.

 

Again, two possible interpretations. One, it is just a fluke weather pattern, the entire sky mat not be cloud-covered ALL the time, everywhere. Just more and more. Again, in the same passage, the paving stones are wet from a recent shower. There is no ring of sunshine here. It doesn't rain when Rand is around, there are no clouds.

 

Second, BS just messed up and was a bit too loosey-goosey here.

 

I tend to go with number 2. The device with clouds breaking is repeatedly used as a timeline marker for Rand's transformation and is often accentuated. For example, here is what happens during Avi's trip to Rhuidean:

The sun was high in the sky, cloud cover remarkably gone

.

 

This is very similar to how clouds breaking in Caemlyn are described in Ch 8.

The paving stones were damp from a recent shower, though those clouds had passed by

and—remarkably—left the sky open to the air.

 

Before Rand's transformation and after (except around Rand and his girls) the sky is uniformly clouded. The characters often remark on it. This is clearly an intentional plot device. Yes, the fact that the clouds break in Caemlyn in CH 8 is inconsistent with the timeline and with the fact that the sky is later described as cloudy with Elayne present (Dragon's test).

 

I'm pretty sure this is just an incorrectly placed timeline marker in Ch 8 that wasn't removed in editing. BS said that there was a lot of chapters moving around in ToM.

[herid]

An update on this thread. I managed to ask BS on twitter about clouds parting over Caemlyn in ToM, Ch 8 and he basically confirmed that it's just an incorrectly placed time marker.

 

 

@BrandSanderson:

@heridfan There COULD still be mistakes, but I think the book is more accurate than people assume because of the Tam issue.

 

@heridfan:

@BrandSanderson I don't mean Tam issue. there are for example clouds breaking in Caemlyn in Ch 8, way before Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount

 

@BrandSanderson:

@heridfan That's a good note. I'll fire that one off to Team Jordan and see if we made an error. Got any others?

 

But as I mentioned earlier in the thread there are issues with Mat's timeline even if we accept that this was just an error.

 

There seem to be contradictions in how many days passed between Mat's meeting with Verin and Rand's transformation on Dragonmount. By one calculation it should only be a few days. Verin's letter to Mat says that she intended to return in one day. so when she takes poison in the Tower it's either the same day she left Mat or the following one. the same night Verin dies the Seanchan attack the Tower, the following day Egwene reunites the Tower. Rand's transformation takes place only a couple of days after that.

 

in TGS epilogue we see Egwene reading fresh reports from Sylviana when Sylviana lets her know her of the clouds parting over Dragonmount:

 

She smiled faintly, scanning the next of Silviana's reports. Then she frowned. Most of the Black Ajah in the Tower had escaped. This report, written in Silviana's careful, flowing script, told that they had managed to seize some of the Blacks in the hours following Egwene's raising, but only the weakest of the lot. The majority of them—some sixty Black sisters—had escaped. Including one Sitter, as Egwene had noticed before, whose name had not been on Verin's list. Evanellein's disappearance indicated strongly that she was Black.

Egwene picked up another report, frowning to herself. It was a list of all the women in the White Tower, an extensive list several pages long, broken down by Ajah. Many names had a notation beside them. Black, escaped. Black, captured. Taken by the Seanchan.

 

That last group was galling. Saerin—acting with foresight—had taken a census following the attack to determine exactly who had been captured.

-TGS, Epilogue

so, Egwene tried to root out the Black Ajah in the Tower on the same day she was raised. That's understandable as this was something that had to be done as soon as possible.

Given the urgency of the issue, the reports Egwene was reading (particularly the first one) must have been prepared as quickly as possible. Also, it's mentioned that the Amyrlin's office was basically empty as it was stripped of Elaida's things but nothing has been replaced yet.

She was inside the Amyrlin's study, purged of any and all references to Elaida. That left it bare, the walls empty, the wood paneling unadorned by picture or tapestry, the end tables empty of works of art. Even the bookshelves had been emptied, lest something of Elaida's offend Egwene.

 

 

Altogether this puts the scene at most 2-3 days after reuniting of the Tower and at most 4-5 days after Mat-Verin meeting.

 

On the other hand, if we look at Mat's timeline in ToM it should be a lot longer than that. Mat arrives in Caemlyn and writes Elayne a letter. He then waits for her response and stews that none is coming. That's 3 days right there. Then he writes her another letter, she gets the second letter and sets up a meeting with Mat and they finally meet. That's another 3 days. Then Aludra has to start the Dragon production, test the Dragons, let Elayne know about the first successful test and set up a demonstration for Elayne.

The clouds part over Caemlyn some time after the demonstration. It's not exactly clear when but during the Dragon test the sky is still clouded and Elayne never mentions feeling anything unusual through the bond prior to that scene.

The day was muggy, the weather turning warm, the sky still dark with clouds.

-ToM, Ch 29

At least 4 days passed between her first meeting with Mat and the test of the Dragons. Mat gave her the medallion for 3 days and she gave it back to him at least one day prior to the Dragon test. All in all, that makes it at least 9 days (likely 10 or more) from Mat meeting Verin till clouds breaking over Caemlyn which is very different from the 4-5 days estimate obtained earlier.

[Puny]

About the timeline issue: (abit OT)

 

I have only read up until chapter 1 in ToM, and reading these replies makes me nervous. Will it be really hard to follow ToM? Will the timeline issue destroy my reading experience...aka me being all confused about where people are and what they are doing. Should I wait until Brandon fixes the issue? But I guess it will take time until he fixes it.

[herid]

About the timeline issue: (abit OT)

 

I have only read up until chapter 1 in ToM, and reading these replies makes me nervous. Will it be really hard to follow ToM? Will the timeline issue destroy my reading experience...aka me being all confused about where people are and what they are doing. Should I wait until Brandon fixes the issue? But I guess it will take time until he fixes it.

don't worry about it. It may be slightly confusing in a couple of spots as some timelines do shift around but mostly, you'll hardly notice it and it should definitely do nothing to your enjoyment of the book. The kind of issues that I was griping about are very hard to spot and only become apparent if you dig deep into various timelines.

[Puny]

About the timeline issue: (abit OT)

 

I have only read up until chapter 1 in ToM, and reading these replies makes me nervous. Will it be really hard to follow ToM? Will the timeline issue destroy my reading experience...aka me being all confused about where people are and what they are doing. Should I wait until Brandon fixes the issue? But I guess it will take time until he fixes it.

don't worry about it. It may be slightly confusing in a couple of spots as some timelines do shift around but mostly, you'll hardly notice it and it should definitely do nothing to your enjoyment of the book. The kind of issues that I was griping about are very hard to spot and only become apparent if you dig deep into various timelines.

 

Oki, thanks Herid. One more thing: Does anyone know a link to a site with good WoT chronology that is accurate? Then I can read up about the timelines and understand abit better what happens when in relation to what?

[herid]

About the timeline issue: (abit OT)

 

I have only read up until chapter 1 in ToM, and reading these replies makes me nervous. Will it be really hard to follow ToM? Will the timeline issue destroy my reading experience...aka me being all confused about where people are and what they are doing. Should I wait until Brandon fixes the issue? But I guess it will take time until he fixes it.

don't worry about it. It may be slightly confusing in a couple of spots as some timelines do shift around but mostly, you'll hardly notice it and it should definitely do nothing to your enjoyment of the book. The kind of issues that I was griping about are very hard to spot and only become apparent if you dig deep into various timelines.

 

Oki, thanks Herid. One more thing: Does anyone know a link to a site with good WoT chronology that is accurate? Then I can read up about the timelines and understand abit better what happens when in relation to what?

Terez lists several good ones on her WoT reference page but you have to take whatever is presented there with a grain of salt. Those chronologies are best efforts by readers. They could easily be wrong on some things and some events may not have enough time markers to place them firmly.