Taim vs. Logain

[akira.taylor]

And what of Min's reading? Logian is destined for greatness, its been stressed many times in the books.

 

Ol' Gainy is going to kick taims ass left right and centre!

 

As already stated, his glory does not have to come from serving the light.

 

At the end of KOD, Taim only had about 100 men. He started turning people soon after that, but he can't have increased his numbers by much. Let's say he has 300 max men. Add his 100 or so Black Ajah to that, and maybe he managed to turn all 50 or so women to his side. He's still ginormously outnumbered.

 

Androl can weave a gateway to get help. It's only a matter of time. He probably needs to link with Pevara to do it, maybe more, but it seems to me like it's the reverse of the unweaving business that the Aiel do. Ishamael thought that was impossible. As we saw with Elayne, the flows are hard to hold on to - it's unnatural-seeming to her. That's what happened to Androl - his weave came together, and he tried to hold it together, but then the flows slid from his grip.

 

So, say Androl gets help before they manage to turn the whole population inside. That would probably take quite a while, so it's probably safe to assume they won't even get close. Taim is toast; he has 20-30% of the Asha'man/Aes Sedai numbers at best.

 

I'm betting Androl will only manage to make a gateway large enough to send a note through or something like that. A paper airplane.

 

 

Why does everyone think that it is as simple as linking to defeat a dreamspike? Men and women working together was common during the A.O.L. and the dreamspike was very effective, else morridin and Graendal wouldn't be so excited about them. Or is it just supposed to be Androl's ability to weave gateways that makes it work? In which case i still find it hard to believe... Was there really nobody who was good with gateways during the A.O.L.?

 

Also - with Callandor - Logain or Rand (or Narishma?) wouldn't need to play fair. One could kill every soul on the BT's grounds in a second. Of course, that will never happen, as we know Pevara still has some awesomeness to perform.

 

I think that a full circle of 72 led by Taim would still beat Logain or Narishma even with Callandor. Not to mention it has been mentioned many times that a woman must lead a circle while using Callandor for it to be safe, in which case, I think it would have to be Alivia to have any shot against Taim (Taim is a weapon), Nyn or Cadsuane would still be eaten for breakfast.

 

 

More than external help, I think the kernel lies in the above split of forces in the BT itself. Taim has a small focussed minority of DF supporters. The majority are not pulling together. If Androl-Pevara put together a "resistance" and pull the "neutrals" to their side, it won't even need too much external help to sort the emergency aspects of the situation out (open the BT in normal space, prevent lightfriend channelers being turned, etc.

Help would be required to negate 13x13 and remove the Dspike of course but it may not actually be required to KO Taim's forces.

Everyone in this thread is assuming that Logain's glory pertains to bashing Taim; it may not. (He might bash Taim but that might not be why Min viewed glory in his future)

Rand obviously suspects the use of a DSpike and he would presumably know what to do to find and negate it. IF he talks to Perrin (a big If) or Nynaeve, his suspicions will be confirmed.

 

ok, I will give you that if Logain's people can gather all the 'nuetrals', there chance goes up, but what about the fact that Taim's are for the most part, the strongest, that has to even the playing field with the numbers. Plus IF Taim is working for Moridin (Obviously) then he is probabally stacked with angreal (and maybe a sa'angreal or two). Once again you discount the travelling advantage. Even if Androl can make it work, Taim still has a tactical advantage in that all of his men can travel (assuming he has the key to share with them, which i think he does).

And lastly why would Rand know of a way to negate the dreamspike? LTT most likely didn't or once again Moridin and Graendal would not have been as excited. I also took Rand's suspicion of a dreamspike as another reason that he would leave it alone. Knowing it would cost too much to deal with the tower now. Maybe the tower is one of the 'other' things Rand failed at, like the truce with the Seanchan that he tells Ituralde about.

 

I believe Jordan stated that there were counters to Traveling (before we learned of Dreamspikes, obviously), and counters to the counters, etc. So, the Dreamspike (implicitly) is not unbeatable, but Rand would be the only one who would know how to get around it without trial and error.

 

Now, would linking get around the Dreamspike? That is an assumption I'm not willing to make, although I'm not inclined to assume that it wouldn't work. A Memory of Light will (probably) tell us.

[Terez]

I'm with Mane of Chaos on this one, the simplest answer is usually the right one and in this case that means that removing the dreamspike from T'A'R will most probably be how this situation is resolved, no matter how good Androl may be at weaving gateways.

That makes no sense. We wouldn't have been given Androl's POV if his Talent with gateways wasn't going to be important in some way. Using Occam's Razor doesn't mean that you get to pretend like certain evidence isn't important.

[Ashandarei]

That makes no sense. We wouldn't have been given Androl's POV if his Talent with gateways wasn't going to be important in some way. Using Occam's Razor doesn't mean that you get to pretend like certain evidence isn't important.

 

Easy there, no need to bite my head off... Concerning Androl, BS/RJ had to pick someone currently at the BT, none of which besides Taim we as readers know, so who better to pick than Androl, who's supposed to be brilliant with gateways to demonstrate and emphasize the problem with the Dreamspike? I didn't ignore his PoV, I specifically mentioned how that could be interpreted:

I'm with Mane of Chaos on this one, the simplest answer is usually the right one and in this case that means that removing the dreamspike from T'A'R will most probably be how this situation is resolved, no matter how good Androl may be at weaving gateways. His effort might even have been an example of how even Androl who has gateways down nearly to a Talent can't bypass the dreamspike's Traveling block.

 

That being said, I do agree that if there is a way the DS can by bypassed, Androl will be instrumental in doing so. I'm not discounting that as a possibility, just saying that I think it's more likely the DS will have to be physically removed.

[GregDietzFla]

Why does everyone think that it is as simple as linking to defeat a dreamspike?

Because Androl's Talent with them is unprecedented, probably. Or near to it. Logain calls it 'impressive', and Taim calls it 'impossible'. Take that for what it's worth. Also, the description is similar to the unweaving (sort of in reverse); it probably follows the same principle, and again, unweaving was so unknown in the Age of Legends that Moridin freaked out when he realized he had been within range of an unweaving gateway (the one that Aviendha successfully unwove).

 

What does that have to do with linking? Does the amount of power affect how 'slippery' the weaves feel? I would imagine not. Just like it wouldn't have been easier for Avi to 'unweave' if she had been leading a circle, would it??

[yoniy0]

Ooh, you're in trouble now, you are

[Terez]

That makes no sense. We wouldn't have been given Androl's POV if his Talent with gateways wasn't going to be important in some way. Using Occam's Razor doesn't mean that you get to pretend like certain evidence isn't important.

 

Easy there, no need to bite my head off...

What exactly about the above qualifies as biting your head off?

 

Concerning Androl, BS/RJ had to pick someone currently at the BT, none of which besides Taim we as readers know, so who better to pick than Androl, who's supposed to be brilliant with gateways to demonstrate and emphasize the problem with the Dreamspike?

It wasn't necessary to pick someone with a Talent for gateways to show that gateways don't work.

 

Why does everyone think that it is as simple as linking to defeat a dreamspike?

Because Androl's Talent with them is unprecedented, probably. Or near to it. Logain calls it 'impressive', and Taim calls it 'impossible'. Take that for what it's worth. Also, the description is similar to the unweaving (sort of in reverse); it probably follows the same principle, and again, unweaving was so unknown in the Age of Legends that Moridin freaked out when he realized he had been within range of an unweaving gateway (the one that Aviendha successfully unwove).

 

What does that have to do with linking?

Only strength. It's probably easier to hold onto the weaves with a little backup. Aviendha didn't ask for help because she didn't need it, and besides that, Aiel didn't know how to link before the Aes Sedai taught them so they wouldn't have explored that possibility.

[GregDietzFla]

That makes no sense. We wouldn't have been given Androl's POV if his Talent with gateways wasn't going to be important in some way. Using Occam's Razor doesn't mean that you get to pretend like certain evidence isn't important.

 

Easy there, no need to bite my head off...

What exactly about the above qualifies as biting your head off?

 

Concerning Androl, BS/RJ had to pick someone currently at the BT, none of which besides Taim we as readers know, so who better to pick than Androl, who's supposed to be brilliant with gateways to demonstrate and emphasize the problem with the Dreamspike?

It wasn't necessary to pick someone with a Talent for gateways to show that gateways don't work.

 

Why does everyone think that it is as simple as linking to defeat a dreamspike?

Because Androl's Talent with them is unprecedented, probably. Or near to it. Logain calls it 'impressive', and Taim calls it 'impossible'. Take that for what it's worth. Also, the description is similar to the unweaving (sort of in reverse); it probably follows the same principle, and again, unweaving was so unknown in the Age of Legends that Moridin freaked out when he realized he had been within range of an unweaving gateway (the one that Aviendha successfully unwove).

 

What does that have to do with linking?

Only strength. It's probably easier to hold onto the weaves with a little backup. Aviendha didn't ask for help because she didn't need it, and besides that, Aiel didn't know how to link before the Aes Sedai taught them so they wouldn't have explored that possibility.

 

Is there any evidence in the text of it being easier to unweave with more strength or are you just assuming? I would imagine it has more to do with talent, as in Avi has the talent (She says not every WO can do it), and yes i imagine he would use somebody who has a talent for gateways to show how effective the dreamspike is, who better to show that gateways don't work. When no-one else can travel, they say go get Androl, he can make it work. Turns out he can't. Great scene, shows the BT is untravellable.

This topic has also gotten away from my original question, can Logain evict Taim? While the travelling is a disadvantage, it is not the be all end all to that fight. Androl gives you one person who can travel, what happens when Taim figures it out and kills Androl. Not to mention the fight realies on the 'nuetrals' as someone else said. Why would they follow Logain over Taim? Taim was appointed by the Dragon, Logain is just another Asha'man, Unless Rand goes himself, which i dont see happenening, too risky, and if he did I think Taim would just leave with his people rather than confront Jesus-Rand. If Androl can't make a gateway work then some are stuck inside while Logain is on the outside, and i think it was stated that attacking the walls once they were manned was suicide. So if Androl cant travel the BT is Taim's...

[Terez]

Is there any evidence in the text of it being easier to unweave with more strength or are you just assuming?

Neither. I said he'll probably have to link with Pevara to manage it.

 

I would imagine it has more to do with talent, as in Avi has the talent (She says not every WO can do it)

Actually, she says any woman can do it, though some are better at it than others. However, she does say that other Wise Ones can't read residue (that is a rare Talent), which is the whole point behind the unweaving (those who can read residue can copy the weave without seeing the actual weave).

 

and yes i imagine he would use somebody who has a talent for gateways to show how effective the dreamspike is, who better to show that gateways don't work.

Again, it's totally unnecessary to show a talented person to demonstrate that gateways don't work. You saying otherwise repeatedly doesn't change the fact. We weren't even aware that there was such a Talent until TOM.

[GregDietzFla]

Is there any evidence in the text of it being easier to unweave with more strength or are you just assuming?

Neither. I said he'll probably have to link with Pevara to manage it.

 

I would imagine it has more to do with talent, as in Avi has the talent (She says not every WO can do it)

Actually, she says any woman can do it, though some are better at it than others. However, she does say that other Wise Ones can't read residue (that is a rare Talent), which is the whole point behind the unweaving (those who can read residue can copy the weave without seeing the actual weave).

 

and yes i imagine he would use somebody who has a talent for gateways to show how effective the dreamspike is, who better to show that gateways don't work.

Again, it's totally unnecessary to show a talented person to demonstrate that gateways don't work. You saying otherwise repeatedly doesn't change the fact. We weren't even aware that there was such a Talent until TOM.

 

I meant 'skill' instead of talent. Sorry bad choice of words. And while she says that yes any woman can learn to do it, yet not every wise one has the ability to do it.

 

And actually i wasn't the first to say it (so not repeatedly saying it), and you repeatedly saying that because he developed a character who had a talent with traveling means he has to be able to beat the DS doesn't make it true either.

And since your not BS, forgive me for not taking your word for it.

[Terez]

I would imagine it has more to do with talent, as in Avi has the talent (She says not every WO can do it)

Actually, she says any woman can do it, though some are better at it than others. However, she does say that other Wise Ones can't read residue (that is a rare Talent), which is the whole point behind the unweaving (those who can read residue can copy the weave without seeing the actual weave).

I meant 'skill' instead of talent. Sorry bad choice of words. And while she says that yes any woman can learn to do it, yet not every wise one has the ability to do it.

Does she say that? A quote would be nice.

[GregDietzFla]

 

Does she say that? A quote would be nice.

 

I don't have my books with me right now, but if i remember correctly she first states that all wise ones can do it, but then corrects herself saying that not all wise ones can actually do it, just that it is able to be learned by all.

[yoniy0]

"It was necessary," Aviendha cut in. A babble erupted from the mounted Aes Sedai crowding around her and Vandene, but she glared at them and raised her voice over theirs. "I know the dangers, Vandene Namelle, but it was necessary. Is this another thing you Aes Sedai cannot do? The Wise Ones say any woman can learn, if she is taught, some women more and some less, but any woman, if she can pick out embroidery." She did not quite sneer. Not quite.

 

And please keep your discussion on the subject at hand. It's okay to disagree, mocking each other's views is unnecessary.

[ineedfourberfs]

This might seem daft, so forgive me.

 

But if the Dreamspike was given to Graendal, does that not imply that Taim is working with/for her? At least at surface level...

[rambling]

This might seem daft, so forgive me.

 

But if the Dreamspike was given to Graendal, does that not imply that Taim is working with/for her? At least at surface level...

 

There are two dreamspikes, one went to Graendal to help her get Perrin, the other, we assume, is the one stopping gateways at BT

[Terez]

Does she say that? A quote would be nice.

 

I don't have my books with me right now, but if i remember correctly she first states that all wise ones can do it, but then corrects herself saying that not all wise ones can actually do it, just that it is able to be learned by all.

You do not remember correctly. Again, 'not all Wise Ones can do it' was in reference to reading residues, not unweaving.

[GregDietzFla]

Ah, I stand corrected. @yoniy0- thanks for the quote...

@Terez- I would still imagine it has more to do with skill than power, but i have nothing to support that other than it would seem rather convienient if all you had to do was link to beat the dreamspike... (I think BS needs to do better.) You could quite possibly be right.

 

But back to my original question, does Androl's gateway guarentee that Logain can evict Taim?

[wvlr2]

But back to my original question, does Androl's gateway guarentee that Logain can evict Taim?

 

As mentioned above, all the bonded AS are out of the BT on Rand's directions. As well as 50% of the Ashamen. Leaving only the lower level trainees.

 

Also, my interpretation of Logain + his 3 best left suddenly during the night,

 

+ dreamspike use --- seems to indicate that with The taim opposition at a low - Taim may have taken the opportunity to grab Logain + 3.

 

Use of the Dreamspick obviously shows connection to Mordin so he could have gotten some Black AS at the same time. This reeks of 13x13s to me.

 

The Reds showing up just is providing him with some extra material and an excuse to put off the Rebal bonders until he is ready.

 

So I think that Taim has Logain. Why he is holding off doing the 13x13 on Logain though is a mystery - maybe he just wants to see him suffer first while all his "friends" are turned? Not sure.

 

 

 

I do think that Androl will be able to make a gateway. His POV clearly showed that he was able to "get past" the point that others weaves failed, and that he was "almost" able to complete the weave. So with a little additional power, he might be able to complete it. Remember what Grady said - he did not actually use the female power - but it allowed him to "strengthen" his weave.

 

 

If he does it, I think that it will allow Logain's AS to come & they will all prepare a suprise for Taim & cronies.

[Terez]

Ah, I stand corrected. @yoniy0- thanks for the quote...

@Terez- I would still imagine it has more to do with skill than power, but i have nothing to support that other than it would seem rather convienient if all you had to do was link to beat the dreamspike... (I think BS needs to do better.) You could quite possibly be right.

It's not just linking. It's a combination of Androl's Talent - so rare that Taim called it 'impossible' - and linking. This is continuing on a running theme of the series:

 

He was about to turn away when the outlines of the gateway suddenly began to flex and tremble. Transfixed, he watched until the opening simply – melted. He had never been a man to give way to obscenities, but several rose in his mind. What had the woman done? These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except that they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?

 

"Great Master?"

 

Moridin barely turned his head from the window. "Yes, Madic?" Her soul be damned, what had the girl done?...

 

...Moridin went back to studying the stableyard below as soon as Madic spoke. Ridiculous tales of gold and cuendillar held no interest. Nothing would make a gateway behave that way. Unless... Could she actually have unraveled the web? Death held no fear for him. Coldly he considered the possibility that he had been within sight of an unraveling web. One that had been unmade successfully. Another impossibility casually offered up by these...

 

Something Madic had said caught his ear. "The weather, Madic?" The shadows of the palace spires had barely lengthened from their bases, but there was not a cloud to shield the baking city.

 

"Yes, Great Master. It is called the Bowl of the Winds."

 

The name meant nothing to him. But... a ter’angreal to control the weather... In his own Age, weather had been carefully regulated with the use of ter’angreal. One of the surprises of this Age – one of the smaller, it had seemed – was that there were those who could manipulate weather to a degree that should have required one of those ter’angreal. One such device should not be enough to affect even a large part of a single continent. But what could these women do with it? What? If they used a ring?

We don't see Logain at the Black Tower until nearly a month later, and it's only been about a week since his escape at this point, so this can't be used as evidence that Moridin is not Taim.

 

This raises the question of whether Moridin knows of Androl's Talent. I would imagine that Taim at least reports on these things, and if he is Moridin, then he surely knows of it. If he is aware of it, then he should be prepared for the possibility that Androl has a chance of getting around it, especially with women hanging around he can link with.

[GregDietzFla]

Ah, I stand corrected. @yoniy0- thanks for the quote...

@Terez- I would still imagine it has more to do with skill than power, but i have nothing to support that other than it would seem rather convienient if all you had to do was link to beat the dreamspike... (I think BS needs to do better.) You could quite possibly be right.

It's not just linking. It's a combination of Androl's Talent - so rare that Taim called it 'impossible' - and linking. This is continuing on a running theme of the series:

 

He was about to turn away when the outlines of the gateway suddenly began to flex and tremble. Transfixed, he watched until the opening simply – melted. He had never been a man to give way to obscenities, but several rose in his mind. What had the woman done? These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except that they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?

 

"Great Master?"

 

Moridin barely turned his head from the window. "Yes, Madic?" Her soul be damned, what had the girl done?...

 

...Moridin went back to studying the stableyard below as soon as Madic spoke. Ridiculous tales of gold and cuendillar held no interest. Nothing would make a gateway behave that way. Unless... Could she actually have unraveled the web? Death held no fear for him. Coldly he considered the possibility that he had been within sight of an unraveling web. One that had been unmade successfully. Another impossibility casually offered up by these...

 

Something Madic had said caught his ear. "The weather, Madic?" The shadows of the palace spires had barely lengthened from their bases, but there was not a cloud to shield the baking city.

 

"Yes, Great Master. It is called the Bowl of the Winds."

 

The name meant nothing to him. But... a ter’angreal to control the weather... In his own Age, weather had been carefully regulated with the use of ter’angreal. One of the surprises of this Age – one of the smaller, it had seemed – was that there were those who could manipulate weather to a degree that should have required one of those ter’angreal. One such device should not be enough to affect even a large part of a single continent. But what could these women do with it? What? If they used a ring?

We don't see Logain at the Black Tower until nearly a month later, and it's only been about a week since his escape at this point, so this can't be used as evidence that Moridin is not Taim.

 

This raises the question of whether Moridin knows of Androl's Talent. I would imagine that Taim at least reports on these things, and if he is Moridin, then he surely knows of it. If he is aware of it, then he should be prepared for the possibility that Androl has a chance of getting around it, especially with women hanging around he can link with.

 

Okay, I'm with you in that i think Taim is Moridin, I just didn't want to use that cause from everywhere else i've read i am in the minority. Which begs another question, If Moridin is aware of Androl's talent, why not just kill him?

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Taim is simply Guaire Amalasan out of a stasis box. Ishamael having manipulated and then saved him for future purposes. Probably hidden somewhere deep in the annals of the White Tower secret histories is mentioned the fact that Amalasan was not gentled but in fact escaped/was rescued when his men broke into the courtyard of the White Tower itself. Since no one ever heard a word again about Amalasan there was no need to bring up a public embarrassment to the world, which would be so very fitting to the ways of the Aes Sedai.

[Sharaman]

Plain and simple saidar-saidin linking probably cannot work - it was too well-known in AoL (along with TAR manipulation) and a DSpike would have been nearly useless if there was such an easy way around it given the fact that there were lots of channelers of both genders around.

It may be that Androl's extraordinary talent + saidar is enough.

But even without that level of gate-related Talent, surely some AoL-ites would have tried using big circles to get around DSpikes?

A further level of doubt is that Androl apparently knows zero about linking and we have no idea if it will at all occur to Pevara.

Hence, I think there's likely to be some other twist - after all, the political implications of females cooperating with males is in itself, almost as extraordinary in the EoTW context.

[Kenny Simi]

I have seen a lot of people saying that they think Logain is going to evict Taim from the black tower, but i dont see how this can possibly happen. Taim holds a superior advantage at the Black Tower, he and his can travel (I assume), and they also have manned the walls. Everyone then points out that Logain will have the help of the Aes Sedai, but i think Taim has the Black Ajah(where else would they have gone?), so circles aren't an advantage, and they are totally outnumbered IIRC, in both male and female channellers. I also think that Taim is Morridin's tool, so you can throw in angreals and what not, but even if you don't, Logain still loses.

 

 

he also has the other dream spike

[Terez]

Really?

[GregDietzFla]

Really?

 

I second that, Really?

@Aybara, if you read any part of the thread, you would realize that most of the argument on it is about the DS, so yea we got that. Thanks.

 

The Amasalam thing is interesting, but i dont think it is too likely. Although that would be sweet, Moridin shows up with every false dragon since the breaking (I include Logain, my pet theory is he is a darkfriend... I know its prolly not true, but i can hope)including Stonebow, Darksbane, etc... and we learn that the WT has epically screwed up everytime when dealing with a false dragon. It would totally fit with the vision i have of the competency of the WT... (Not a big fan of AS if you cant tell... a.k.a. i think they are completely worthless.)

 

BTW why does Rand "need" them. He has the Wise Ones. I know it would be nice to have them on your side, but it's not necessary, and never was. I think that's why he ignores them for the entire series.

[Terez]

The Amasalam thing is interesting

That's funny. It's like (Guaire) Amalasan + Alsalam (king of Arad Doman).