Was a Forsaken 13/13d?

[herid]

The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time gives a pretty detailed account of the reasons why each of the Forsaken went over to the shadow and makes it absolutely clear that each and every one of them did it of their own free will.

Here is what it says about Lanfear for example

 

From various bits of evidence it seems that Mierin was not among the first to go over to the Shadow, but when she did pledge her soul to the Dark One, it was for the most basic of reasons: love and hate.

[Majsju]

Lanfear is the least likely in my view. She was the first to turn so she could not have been turned by the 13 trick since fades did not exist when the bore was made.

 

I still think that Graendal and Ishmael are the most likely the have been turned. Graendal becuase of the obvious personality shift. Ishmael because he was regarded as the greatest mind in the AOL. And I personally think the reasoning that lead him to the DO is flawed.

 

Graendal was one of the first to turn to the Shadow, so it would be close to impossible for her to have been 13x13ed. Even if Aginor had been the very first to turn (which he was not), it would have taken quite some time for him to first successfully create trollocs, then get a fair amount of myrdraal to play with, and then discover the 13x13 trick.

Ishamel is also extremely unlikely, If you look at the titles of some of his books from before he turned, he was not exactly the posterboy for positive thinking to start with.

[Morist]

Graendal seems like she went to the Shadow honestly, and was one of the first people to do so. She was dissatisfied with the world. Most people could not meet the standards she herself lived up to, or at least this is how she saw it. Her POVs on the matter make it seem like she was disillusioned and decided ultimately to live purely for herself. Her debauched lifestyle as Graendal wasn't a reversal away from her previous asceticism so much as a rejection of the principles on which it was founded. She had withheld a lot from herself in the cause of self-betterment, and as Graendal took as much of those pleasures as she could, sometimes, I think, not merely for the pleasure of it but for the sheer defiance of it. Her mistake was that she went too far: She joined the Shadow. Either she went too far in her repudiation of society and abandoned it completely, to the point of joining the Shadow, or she went too far in her pursuit of decadence and embraced the Shadow as a means to greater indulgence.

 

I'd put her dead last next to Ishamael on the list of Forsaken for being allied with the Shadow against her will. Her personality reversal only makes it likelier that she was not turned, because the 13x13 trick merely brings out existing personality traits and suppresses others: It doesn't create new traits. Perhaps Graendal always did have the heart of a glutton, even before she was Graendal, but her judgment and worldview had been completely different. Her change of heart was an epiphany from within, not the result of others.

 

Agree with the points raised.

 

However the 180 turn in her core values still looks a bit fishy. I mean - you don't see people who give up on their moral values gain completely opposite moral values that often.

Usually rejection of moral values leads to depression etc.

 

It similar to an ascetic nun forsaking her beliefs and turning into a decadent mass murderer.

 

Besides - Graendal chose ascetism herself, as written in the BWB. Not that it was imposed on her.

 

We have a similar "transformation" in the series - Rand. However he did not change polarities, he merely changed his modus operandi. Got rid of his youth maximalism you might say. For a young adult it is quite common.

[GregDietzFla]

Well anyone who went over to the shadow before Aginor, could not possibly be 13x13 seeing as how there were no mydrall before Aginor created them. And i dont think he did that til after he went to the shadow. Anyone after him would be fair game IMO.

 

EDIT: Realizes someone beat me to it. Sorry...

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I'd say that we can safely rule out Aginor since he invented Fades. As we know, 13 Fades are necessary to preform the 13x13 thus it would be impossible for Aginor or any Forsaken who came to the shadow before him to have been turned via the 13x13 trick.

 

I'm not sure in what order the Forsaken turned to the Shadow and while he may very well be ruled out by the above I'd say that Demandred would be the most likely for several reasons:

 

-Yes, Demandred did envy LTT. None the less, he was a very high ranking individual in the AOL and among the forces of the Light during the War of the Shadow Would envy alone really be a enough of a reason for such a person to give all of that up? To turn his back on everyone and everything he knew? In and of itself it always seemed like a rather weak reason for a person of his position to turn to The Shadow, if for no other reason that it seems like an easier path to power would have been to find an opportunity to betray LTT on an individual level. Much of what has been said of Demandred's position in the AOL implies that once LTT was out of the way he would be next in line to take command of the Forces of the Light. The become the new "Dragon" perhaps. However, it is said that the 13x13 trick amplifies a person's worst qualities and given the envy seems to have been Demi's worst quality perhaps it could have been amplified to the point that it would cause him to turn.

 

-Demandred has been kept rather mysterious throughout the series, but Brandon has confirmed that he will be a major player in AMOL. The alleged affects of the 13x13 trick were seen at the end of TofM and it would make since to foreshadow the rise of a Forsaken who had undergone this treatment by finally introducing the reader to the effects of said trick.

[Terez]

We can rule out all of them. None of them look like 'a shadow stuffed into human skin'. I really don't understand why people think these turned people could hide in any way among normal people.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

We can rule out all of them. None of them look like 'a shadow stuffed into human skin'. I really don't understand why people think these turned people could hide in any way among normal people.

 

Mask of Mirrors.

[Terez]

Doesn't affect mannerisms.

[Finnssss22]

I'd say that we can safely rule out Aginor since he invented Fades. As we know, 13 Fades are necessary to preform the 13x13 thus it would be impossible for Aginor or any Forsaken who came to the shadow before him to have been turned via the 13x13 trick.

 

I'm not sure in what order the Forsaken turned to the Shadow and while he may very well be ruled out by the above I'd say that Demandred would be the most likely for several reasons:

 

-Yes, Demandred did envy LTT. None the less, he was a very high ranking individual in the AOL and among the forces of the Light during the War of the Shadow Would envy alone really be a enough of a reason for such a person to give all of that up? To turn his back on everyone and everything he knew? In and of itself it always seemed like a rather weak reason for a person of his position to turn to The Shadow, if for no other reason that it seems like an easier path to power would have been to find an opportunity to betray LTT on an individual level. Much of what has been said of Demandred's position in the AOL implies that once LTT was out of the way he would be next in line to take command of the Forces of the Light. The become the new "Dragon" perhaps. However, it is said that the 13x13 trick amplifies a person's worst qualities and given the envy seems to have been Demi's worst quality perhaps it could have been amplified to the point that it would cause him to turn.

 

-Demandred has been kept rather mysterious throughout the series, but Brandon has confirmed that he will be a major player in AMOL. The alleged affects of the 13x13 trick were seen at the end of TofM and it would make since to foreshadow the rise of a Forsaken who had undergone this treatment by finally introducing the reader to the effects of said trick.

 

I don't believe any of the Forsaken were 13x13ed, they all gave themselves over willingly.

 

Demandred went over because no matter what he did or how great he did it he was ALWAYS second to LTT in absolutely everything, height, ability in the One Power, Ilyena's affections right down to being born the day after LTT.

Demandred gains the support of 81 Aes Sedai vying to be their leader but LTT gains the support of 113 and does become their leader.

This is the last straw for Demandred, he turns to the Shadow right after this and attacks LTT.

In a Graendal POV, she notes that Demandred was almost the Dragon himself and only lost out to LTT by the slightest of margins.

It certainly wasn't a single "weak" reason, it was almost 400 years worth of them.

 

I doubt very much that anyone who has been 13x13ed is left with much free will or independent thought.

Simple weapons most likely and certainly not "generals" like the Forsaken are.