notes after rereading tEoTW

[herid]

Just finished rereading tWoTW and I noticed a few things that I haven't noticed before.

 

 

• 
   
  In the prologue:
   
  Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.
   
  I guess this a reference to Hawkwing's sword Justice that Rand now carries?
   
  
• 
   
  when Rand fights Ba'alzamon:
   
  His sword was in his hand. Not the heron-mark blade, but a blade of light, a blade of the Light.
   
   
  Could it possibly be that the blade of light in "He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one" means this (ie. a blade of saidin) and and not Callandor? Seems very unlikely but still...
   
  
• In his twitter feed BS remarks that many of the things the Green Man said are foreshadowings.
   
  BrandonSandrson Wed Jan 12
  Also, the foreshadowing in this sequence is brilliant. The Green Man speaks of things that become important thousands of pages away. #wotrr
   
  Among other things the Green Man says:
  “Strange clothes you wear, Child of the Dragon. Has the Wheel turned so far? Do the People of the Dragon return to the First Covenant? But you wear a sword. That is neither now nor then.”
   
  could it mean that the Aiel have to go back to the way of the leaf (1st covenant=way of the leaf) after the last battle? Seems somewhat unlikely but Avi's visions in Rhuidean do make it perfectly clear that the Aiel need to change somehow.
  

[Morsker]

I guess this a reference to Hawkwing's sword Justice that Rand now carries?

Definitely. Although I'm a bit boring in my expectations of Justice; I think it's solely a mythological parallel, so Excalibur can be a mix of two swords lost to myth, instead of just Callandor. Justice was found in water after all. I don't expect Rand to do anything pivotal with the sword.

[blazetheearth]

Returning the Aiel to the First Covenant does in fact refer to the idea that Aiel will again take up the WotL, at least in my opinion. This gets reinforced by the Prophecy of Rhuidean when it says "He will take them back, and he will break them." Many, including characters in the series, believe that this line refers to the 'taking them back' to the Wetlands, but I have long thought that it referred to returning them to the Way.

[Terez]

In the prologue:Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.I guess this a reference to Hawkwing's sword Justice that Rand now carries?

Yup. It was noticed many years ago, and some even theorized Rand would wield Justice. It was considered to be a pretty loony theory, for obvious reasons.

 

Did you notice Perrin's reference to it in the Hawkwing stedding?

 

when Rand fights Ba'alzamon:His sword was in his hand. Not the heron-mark blade, but a blade of light, a blade of the Light.Could it possibly be that the blade of light in "He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one" means this (ie. a blade of saidin) and and not Callandor? Seems very unlikely but stilll.

Maybe. There are a few possibilities.

 

BrandonSandrson Wed Jan 12

Also, the foreshadowing in this sequence is brilliant. The Green Man speaks of things that become important thousands of pages away. #wotrr

Among other things the Green Man says:“Strange clothes you wear, Child of the Dragon. Has the Wheel turned so far? Do the People of the Dragon return to the First Covenant? But you wear a sword. That is neither now nor then.”could it mean that the Aiel have to go back to the way of the leaf (1st covenant=way of the leaf) after the last battle? Seems somewhat unlikely but Avi's visions in Rhuidean do make it perfectly clear that the Aiel need to change somehow.

Yup, many have thought this for a long time. Some even think that they have to go back to the Way before the Last Battle, though I think that unlikely.

 

 

I guess this a reference to Hawkwing's sword Justice that Rand now carries?

Definitely. Although I'm a bit boring in my expectations of Justice; I think it's solely a mythological parallel, so Excalibur can be a mix of two swords lost to myth, instead of just Callandor. Justice was found in water after all. I don't expect Rand to do anything pivotal with the sword.

This I doubt. I would mean a great deal to Tuon, for example. I suspect in some cases that prophecies seemingly referring to Callandor actually refer to Justice. Which, of course, makes a great deal of sense considering the dual Excalibur parallel. 'Into the heart' in particular makes me wonder.

[herid]

In the prologue:Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.I guess this a reference to Hawkwing's sword Justice that Rand now carries?

Yup. It was noticed many years ago, and some even theorized Rand would wield Justice. It was considered to be a pretty loony theory, for obvious reasons.

 

Did you notice Perrin's reference to it in the Hawkwing stedding?

No, I didn't. I'm still not sure what you mean. Hawkwing's justice is frequently mentioned in that chapter and Perrin thinks about it while hiding in Hawkwing's hand. but I haven't seen the sword mentioned. I did notice when Lan mentions it to Rand in chapter 1 of TGH, I never understood what he was talking about before.

 

 

Also, the foreshadowing in this sequence is brilliant. The Green Man speaks of things that become important thousands of pages away. #wotrr

Among other things the Green Man says:“Strange clothes you wear, Child of the Dragon. Has the Wheel turned so far? Do the People of the Dragon return to the First Covenant? But you wear a sword. That is neither now nor then.”could it mean that the Aiel have to go back to the way of the leaf (1st covenant=way of the leaf) after the last battle? Seems somewhat unlikely but Avi's visions in Rhuidean do make it perfectly clear that the Aiel need to change somehow.

Yup, many have thought this for a long time. Some even think that they have to go back to the Way before the Last Battle, though I think that unlikely.

I looked around and found this page on the thirteenth depository.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/aiel-need-to-adopt-way-of-leaf-before.html

I guess that's the theory you mean. I gives some strong arguments that the Aiel have to embrace the way of the leaf (but interestingly, it doesn't mention the quote above) but it's an old theory and I think the idea that this needs to happen before the last battle can now be dismissed. for one, there is no time for that. Also, in the conversation between Avi and Nakomi they seem to easily agree that the Aiel need to fight in the LB to meet their toh. The question seems to be what should happen after that. lastly, there is a strong theme in ToM that every man will be needed to fight in the LB.

 

 

The main problem I have with the theory that the Aiel have to return to the way of the leaf even after the LB is that I can't imagine how it can be effectively and naturally incorporated into the story. They are clearly not going back to be servants of Aes Sedai. Egwene spent a lot of screen time in ToM setting a basis of future relationship between the Wise Ones and the White Tower. there is nothing of Aiel being Aes Sedai servants in that. without this they would need to keep their national identity. How can they go to the way of the leaf in such situation?

[Terez]

Everything you need to know about Rand's sword.

[herid]

Everything you need to know about Rand's sword.

Thanks a lot. A very interesting read. Most of what you suggest there seems plausible but I must say I think you are really reaching on the idea that the seanchan woman with the sword in Egwene's dream is Tuon. It's based on several suppositions of what haven't happened yet: that Rand will give Tuon Justice and that she will carry it. Tuon is not trained with the sword (at least that's never been mentioned). when she fights it's with her bare hands as when when she fights Mat during her abduction and when she fights in Maderin.

Egeanin appears a much more likely candidate to be the seanchan woman from that dream. The fact that the woman's face is obscured might simply indicate that Egwene doesn't know her personally. Or it might indicate that Egeanin/Leilwin is still quite conflicted of who she now is.

Lastly, Tuon is extremely short. Everybody who meets her remarks on this. The dream never mentions this. Of course it doesn't have to but it's suggestive IMO. I would think that given the obscured face of that woman Egwene would look for other defining characteristics (like the sword) and unusual height would definitely be one of them. She is also very dark skinned and the dream never mentions that either.

 

Oh, one more thing. Egeanin has just arrived in Tar Valon. And she went there for no particularly good reason. The only explanation given is when she tells Mat that she always wanted to go there. kind of a lame explanation IMO. She is clearly being positioned there for further plot developments.

[moratcorlm]

Foreshadowing of Mat's role in brokering a truce using the Horn and Justice:

Do you have a Horn of Valere to sell? Or mayhap it do be the Dragon’s sword?

 

Egeanin has nothing to give.

[herid]

Foreshadowing of Mat's role in brokering a truce using the Horn and Justice:

Do you have a Horn of Valere to sell? Or mayhap it do be the Dragon’s sword?

 

Egeanin has nothing to give.

why should she have something to give? the woman in the dream doesn't give Egwene anything. she saves her from the fall. it might just mean a physical act of saving Egwene somehow (I have no idea how - we'll see in AMoL).

[moratcorlm]

No, she offers to "reach the top together", which is quite another matter.

 

And the other Dreams linking Egwene to the Seanchan, and to Tuon in particular? Egeanin doesn't have an a'dam to give Egwene. Egeanin doesn't have a hawk sigil. The parallel between COT20 and KOD8? The necessity of a truce between the Light factions going into Tarmon Gai'don?

 

Egeanin has a case, as measured against Tuon and Tylee, but it's not "really reaching" to suggest that her habit of wearing a sword is not quite enough to make her the undeniably obvious interpretation.

[herid]

No, she offers to "reach the top together", which is quite another matter.

well, she does both but yes, that part is significant and I admit, I don't know how to interpret it.

 

And the other Dreams linking Egwene to the Seanchan, and to Tuon in particular?

that's a separate dream. I agree with the interpretation that the golden hawk touching Egwene is most likely Tuon. I never said otherwise. But it doesn't have to mean that the woman with the sword is Tuon too. It's a completely separate dream and IMO it's a stretch to imply that they are.

 

Egeanin has a case, as measured against Tuon and Tylee, but it's not "really reaching" to suggest that her habit of wearing a sword is not quite enough to make her the undeniably obvious interpretation.

Egeanin wearing a sword is not the only reason I stated. The reasons I gave are this

1. Egeanin wears a sword (yes, let's mention it). also her sigil a sword and a fouled anchor (WH, Ch. 21) (I mentioned this in other threads but not in this one).

2. Egeanin has been moved to Tar Valon for no clear reason. This indicates that she is needed there for further plot developments and fulfillment of that dream is a possible candidate.

3. I also mentioned the reasons why I think it's not Tuon: she doesn't have a sword and it's never been mentioned that she has even been trained to use it. When she fights it's always with her bare hands (and feet). Also, Tuon has several striking physical characteristics such as very small height and dark skin. They are not mentioned in the dream.

 

But at the end of the day it's all subjective and a matter of opinion of course (that includes suggesting that something is really reaching). Let's just say that IMHO the argument for it being Tuon is quite weak as it involved several unproved and unfulfilled suppositions.

[moratcorlm]

Why would we say that? The argument for it being Egeanin is quite weak as it involves a penniless fugitive 'helping Egwene reach the top.' All three interpretations require leaps of faith.

[herid]

All three interpretations require leaps of faith.

ok, that's fair enough.

[Terez]

Everything you need to know about Rand's sword.

Thanks a lot. A very interesting read. Most of what you suggest there seems plausible but I must say I think you are really reaching on the idea that the seanchan woman with the sword in Egwene's dream is Tuon.

It's okay; most noobs do. But really, she's the only one who can carry Justice properly. I don't doubt Egeanin will be involved, but it seems unnecessarily complicated to assume it's Egeanin when we already know that Egwene and Tuon are tied together. The hawk stretches out its wing to touch Egwene just as the woman in the dream reaches out her hand to help.

 

I still think Egeanin is a strong possibility, but I feel like Tuon is stronger.

 

Tuon is not trained with the sword (at least that's never been mentioned).

I imagine she was trained in a number of weapons, but it doesn't matter whether or not she can actually use a sword. Justice is an important symbol of her office (despite the fact that it's been hidden so long).

[Mandro]

The sword that rand now carries (not callandor) is HIS sword, The Dragons sword from the AOL. Was Justice the same as the dragons sword? A Relic that Hawkwing valued?

 

The Audiobook makes it clear that it's The Dragons Sword, not Justice.

 

[update] relistened, it's left ambiguous, me wrong.

[Mandro]

Egeanin has a case, as measured against Tuon and Tylee, but it's not "really reaching" to suggest that her habit of wearing a sword is not quite enough to make her the undeniably obvious interpretation.

 

For the Prophecy, but not for "Justice" Egeannin is a ships captain, and is always depicted carrying a shortsword. There is no indication of TUONS training with a sword, but it's known that egeanin carries a short sword. Justice is a Katana/Blademasters sword.

[Mandro]

3. I also mentioned the reasons why I think it's not Tuon: she doesn't have a sword and it's never been mentioned that she has even been trained to use it. When she fights it's always with her bare hands (and feet). Also, Tuon has several striking physical characteristics such as very small height and dark skin. They are not mentioned in the dream.

 

But at the end of the day it's all subjective and a matter of opinion of course (that includes suggesting that something is really reaching). Let's just say that IMHO the argument for it being Tuon is quite weak as it involved several unproved and unfulfilled suppositions.

 

And knives, didn't she finish the chick who was about kill matt in "A hell in Madarin?"

[herid]

3. I also mentioned the reasons why I think it's not Tuon: she doesn't have a sword and it's never been mentioned that she has even been trained to use it. When she fights it's always with her bare hands (and feet). Also, Tuon has several striking physical characteristics such as very small height and dark skin. They are not mentioned in the dream.

 

But at the end of the day it's all subjective and a matter of opinion of course (that includes suggesting that something is really reaching). Let's just say that IMHO the argument for it being Tuon is quite weak as it involved several unproved and unfulfilled suppositions.

 

And knives, didn't she finish the chick who was about kill matt in "A hell in Madarin?"

ok, good catch. yes she finished that one with a knife.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I guess this a reference to Hawkwing's sword Justice that Rand now carries?

Definitely. Although I'm a bit boring in my expectations of Justice; I think it's solely a mythological parallel, so Excalibur can be a mix of two swords lost to myth, instead of just Callandor. Justice was found in water after all. I don't expect Rand to do anything pivotal with the sword.

 

 

Why would it be Hawkwings sword that is meant? Correct me if I am wrong. But is that sword not the original blade of the false Dragon Amalasan who threw the continent into disarray and whose "children of the Dragon" breached the very grounds of the Tower itself? This sword then taken from it's original owner by a young General called Hawkwing either as a trophy or because he loved the Dragon designs on the blade/hilt. Seems kind of odd that a sword created and worn by a false Dragon becomes the hallmark of the Dragon's rebirth? I honestly think Callandor is meant.

 

 

Either way I find it highly curious that Rand would adorn himself with the "power-wrought/saidin created" dragon-gilded blade of the perhaps most infamous false Dragon. One would think he'd be turned off by relics of old false Dragons, if only for them simply having been false proclamations of himself.

[herid]

I guess this a reference to Hawkwing's sword Justice that Rand now carries?

Definitely. Although I'm a bit boring in my expectations of Justice; I think it's solely a mythological parallel, so Excalibur can be a mix of two swords lost to myth, instead of just Callandor. Justice was found in water after all. I don't expect Rand to do anything pivotal with the sword.

 

 

Why would it be Hawkwings sword that is meant? Correct me if I am wrong. But is that sword not the original blade of the false Dragon Amalasan who threw the continent into disarray and whose "children of the Dragon" breached the very grounds of the Tower itself? This sword then taken from it's original owner by a young General called Hawkwing either as a trophy or because he loved the Dragon designs on the blade/hilt. Seems kind of odd that a sword created and worn by a false Dragon becomes the hallmark of the Dragon's rebirth? I honestly think Callandor is meant.

 

 

Either way I find it highly curious that Rand would adorn himself with the "power-wrought/saidin created" dragon-gilded blade of the perhaps most infamous false Dragon. One would think he'd be turned off by relics of old false Dragons, if only for them simply having been false proclamations of himself.

Please check out the link that Terez provided. It argues for it being Justice much better than I could have

https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_1010fkbjwmg4&revision=_latest

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Better question. Why is the blade of a false Dragon called Justice? Was the name supposed to be ironic in some fashion?

[Finnssss22]

The problem I have with the swords-woman being Egeanin is that the dream clearly states the woman is wearing her sword on her back and Egeanin does not, she wears it across her front in the style of a sailor as noted by Karede's POV in KoD when he comes to the Bands camp.

I very much doubt she would change this, you just don't change something you have always done, trained to do and are used to doing, especially when it comes to weapons.

 

No, I think it will be Tylee, she's the only female Seanchan we have seen with a sword on her back and we already know she is already wavering on whether the Empire should actually be at war with these new lands instead of making allies.

[herid]

The problem I have with the swords-woman being Egeanin is that the dream clearly states the woman is wearing her sword on her back and Egeanin does not, she wears it across her front in the style of a sailor as noted by Karede's POV in KoD when he comes to the Bands camp.

I very much doubt she would change this, you just don't change something you have always done, trained to do and are used to doing, especially when it comes to weapons.

 

No, I think it will be Tylee, she's the only female Seanchan we have seen with a sword on her back and we already know she is already wavering on whether the Empire should actually be at war with these new lands instead of making allies.

Hmm, that's an interesting point. Yes, Tylee is the only other candidate beside Egeanin and Tuon. I'm not sure though that Egeanin never wears her sword on the back.

[Mandro]

The problem I have with the swords-woman being Egeanin is that the dream clearly states the woman is wearing her sword on her back and Egeanin does not, she wears it across her front in the style of a sailor as noted by Karede's POV in KoD when he comes to the Bands camp.

I very much doubt she would change this, you just don't change something you have always done, trained to do and are used to doing, especially when it comes to weapons.

 

No, I think it will be Tylee, she's the only female Seanchan we have seen with a sword on her back and we already know she is already wavering on whether the Empire should actually be at war with these new lands instead of making allies.

 

I used to collect swords, and I learned that there are 3 reasons you wear your sword over your shoulder than at your hip. You are too short, you are riding a horse, or you are in full armor. I might not have included all reasons, but those are the three that I know of. Egeanin is of a height with bale (though I don't know how tall that is, but you can't tell) Egeanin doesn't like horses, she's a shipwoman, but she has worn armor, though not full armor.

 

[update] I forgot about this one, took me a mo, another reason is if you are expecting attack, so that when you draw, the sword is already in high or direct guard.

[Mandro]

Random thing that I know has already been stated, but should always be referenced. While Rand could make no sense of Fel's writings, since Tear's conquest, rand has been acting, but he's also been learning. He was teaching himself, outside of AS influence since he finally proclaimed himself in tear. He needed to be informed, so he read, he read everything he could apparently, and he learned everything he could apparently. If it's justice (which makes sense after my misunderstanding of the sword was corrected yesterday) It had to be from his voracious acceptance of new info when he did accept that he was the dragon. Another reason might be a question to whichever finn it is when he asked "how do I win TG and live? and he was shown the blade as his question was answered. RJ was VERY secretive about all of Rands experience other than what was in full view, so who knows.