who has Gaidal Cain been reborn as?

[tiffany1984]

im new to this site, so if this topic has already been discussed my apologies.

 

Does anyone think that maybe Olver is Gaidal Cain reborn?

My reasons are:

 

Olver is not the best looking kid around, and hes quite reckless.

 

Gaidal can be born older or younger than Birgitte when they are reborn in past lives.

 

Time moves differently in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

 

anyone have a different opinion? any welcome

[Incom]

IIRC, RJ confirmed Olver is not Cain.

 

I don't think we'll see him onscreen, since he's probably barely a toddler (Olver's a little older IIRC).

[Monte]

Supposedly Gaidal Cain will make an appearance before the series is done though? Did RJ not confirm that? Just a question. One thing that gets me...Mat always says when he remembers all his past lives, he can never remember being a child. So what I'm wondering is, when the souls get spun out, are they normally spun out into bodies that are more mature? If that's the case, Olver could BECOME Gaidal Cain and RJ was just misleading us? Immediately though, Rand being born on the slopes of Dragonmount contradicts that theory, and the fact that RJ was so vehement opposing it also contradicts it. Still it is curious why Mat can't remember any childhood memories.

[chinnma]

I think it has more to do with the Finns giving him memories that would be useful like military strategies. I cant realy see hundreds of memories of hide-and-seek, or dozens of different ways to catch a badger being overly helpful. He does remember songs from other memories on occasion though..

[Ihasavowel]

Supposedly Gaidal Cain will make an appearance before the series is done though? Did RJ not confirm that? Just a question. One thing that gets me...Mat always says when he remembers all his past lives, he can never remember being a child. So what I'm wondering is, when the souls get spun out, are they normally spun out into bodies that are more mature? If that's the case, Olver could BECOME Gaidal Cain and RJ was just misleading us? Immediately though, Rand being born on the slopes of Dragonmount contradicts that theory, and the fact that RJ was so vehement opposing it also contradicts it. Still it is curious why Mat can't remember any childhood memories.

There is no reason to believe that souls are spun out in bodies that are mature. Birgette initially remembered all her past lives, and she has never claimed as much. I think that if Artur Hawkwing just sprang into the world fully formed, that this would at least rate a passing mention in some Gleeman's tale.

 

I suspect the reason Mat's acquired memories do not include any childhood ones, is that they probably come from visitors to the world of the Aelfin/Eelfin, and I suspect that not too many children end up there.

[tiffany1984]

i didnt know Jordan had said that, havent had internet long.

do you know where it says about it?

[Monte]

No I seriously doubt Mat's memories come from the Finns. All of his past memories are battle commanders, he is a battle commander, those are HIS past lives.

[Nooska]

No I seriously doubt Mat's memories come from the Finns. All of his past memories are battle commanders, he is a battle commander, those are HIS past lives.

You are incorrect. The memories are given by the finns - clearly illustrated in series, and by word of god.

[Finnssss22]

No I seriously doubt Mat's memories come from the Finns. All of his past memories are battle commanders, he is a battle commander, those are HIS past lives.

You are incorrect. The memories are given by the finns - clearly illustrated in series, and by word of god.

 

 

Actually you are both correct. He has both.

He has memories of his own past lives or possibly just one in paticular because of the dagger and he has memories of others past lives from the Finns.

 

He IS Aemon reborn, the last king of Manetheren whose personal army btw during the Trolloc Wars was called....drum roll... The Band of the Red Hand!

TDR Chptr 19 confirms this in spades long before the Finns "filled his holes".

 

Should also be noted that he doesn't just have the memories of Generals, there are definitely some in there for sure but he has the memories of men of all ranks.

Just because he wasn't the general of a certain battle, that doesn't mean he doesn't understand how that battle was won or lost.

 

As far as Olver being GC, either RJ is lieing or he just enjoys torturing us with red herrings like this one and Demandred/Taim.

 

GC is darker skinned, shorter than most, has a big nose, a too wide for his face mouth, ugly as hell and is known to be quite swarthy IE: Just like Matt...the exact same description of Olver.

 

It's the same thing with Demandred and Taim, they are both hook nosed, just a hair shorter than Rand/LTT, high cheek bones, never holds a smile that touches their eyes and are full of cold fury.

 

Red Herring, lie or maybe even Aes Sedai "truth"...find out in just over a year

[Agitel]

Olver is how old? 8? 9? 10?

 

However old he is, Gaidal Cain was in Tel'aran'rhiod up until some point in this series, which has only spanned a couple of years. Jordan has confirmed that time may flow oddly in the World of Dreams, quick for some, fast for others (it flows the same for people when they're together), but never backwards. Gaidal's only just been born into the world, likely to make new stories for the start of a new Age.

 

As for Mat, the only memory of a past life he's had was when he was Healed of the taint of Shadar Logoth, and that was just a brief moment. All his memories as a general were given to him by the Finn's, and they are memories collected from people who passed into the their world. The Finn's only 'record' the memories of those who've been there, and can only see events AFTER they leave, however they do it. That's why all the memories Mat has are those of adults. Mat himself confirms that multiple memories all happened at the same time, meaning that one of the men he remembers lived at the same time as another one of his memories, the lives overlap, they're not his own, they're not his soul.

 

These questions come up fairly often on the boards.

[randsc]

Olver is how old? 8? 9? 10?

 

However old he is, Gaidal Cain was in Tel'aran'rhiod up until some point in this series, which has only spanned a couple of years. Jordan has confirmed that time may flow oddly in the World of Dreams, quick for some, fast for others (it flows the same for people when they're together), but never backwards. Gaidal's only just been born into the world, likely to make new stories for the start of a new Age.

 

As for Mat, the only memory of a past life he's had was when he was Healed of the taint of Shadar Logoth, and that was just a brief moment. All his memories as a general were given to him by the Finn's, and they are memories collected from people who passed into the their world. The Finn's only 'record' the memories of those who've been there, and can only see events AFTER they leave, however they do it. That's why all the memories Mat has are those of adults. Mat himself confirms that multiple memories all happened at the same time, meaning that one of the men he remembers lived at the same time as another one of his memories, the lives overlap, they're not his own, they're not his soul.

 

These questions come up fairly often on the boards.

 

 

It wouldn't need to flow backward.

 

What we know about Cain is that he was "spun out" some relatively short time before, by Birgitte's reckoning. But that "short time" could have been years in the real world, just perceived as a short time by Birgitte in TAR.

 

Gaidal Cain is Uno.

[Agitel]

Olver is how old? 8? 9? 10?

 

However old he is, Gaidal Cain was in Tel'aran'rhiod up until some point in this series, which has only spanned a couple of years. Jordan has confirmed that time may flow oddly in the World of Dreams, quick for some, fast for others (it flows the same for people when they're together), but never backwards. Gaidal's only just been born into the world, likely to make new stories for the start of a new Age.

 

As for Mat, the only memory of a past life he's had was when he was Healed of the taint of Shadar Logoth, and that was just a brief moment. All his memories as a general were given to him by the Finn's, and they are memories collected from people who passed into the their world. The Finn's only 'record' the memories of those who've been there, and can only see events AFTER they leave, however they do it. That's why all the memories Mat has are those of adults. Mat himself confirms that multiple memories all happened at the same time, meaning that one of the men he remembers lived at the same time as another one of his memories, the lives overlap, they're not his own, they're not his soul.

 

These questions come up fairly often on the boards.

 

 

It wouldn't need to flow backward.

 

What we know about Cain is that he was "spun out" some relatively short time before, by Birgitte's reckoning. But that "short time" could have been years in the real world, just perceived as a short time by Birgitte in TAR.

 

Gaidal Cain is Uno.

 

Gaidal Cain has appeared in the series, though. When Birgitte first start following Nynaeve or Egwene or whoever, Gaidal comes after her and talks to her about the 'precepts' and stuff. He was in tel'aran'rhiod up until like Book 4 or Book 5.

[randsc]

You're right, it can't be Uno.

 

That doesn't mean that it can't be someone older than Olver, however.

[Finnssss22]

Olver is how old? 8? 9? 10?

 

However old he is, Gaidal Cain was in Tel'aran'rhiod up until some point in this series, which has only spanned a couple of years. Jordan has confirmed that time may flow oddly in the World of Dreams, quick for some, fast for others (it flows the same for people when they're together), but never backwards. Gaidal's only just been born into the world, likely to make new stories for the start of a new Age.

 

As for Mat, the only memory of a past life he's had was when he was Healed of the taint of Shadar Logoth, and that was just a brief moment. All his memories as a general were given to him by the Finn's, and they are memories collected from people who passed into the their world. The Finn's only 'record' the memories of those who've been there, and can only see events AFTER they leave, however they do it. That's why all the memories Mat has are those of adults. Mat himself confirms that multiple memories all happened at the same time, meaning that one of the men he remembers lived at the same time as another one of his memories, the lives overlap, they're not his own, they're not his soul.

 

These questions come up fairly often on the boards.

 

If Mat's memories of his life of Aemon are as brief and insignificant as you infer then there is no way in hell he would be completely fluent in the Old Tongue already.

 

You're right, it can't be Uno.

 

That doesn't mean that it can't be someone older than Olver, however.

 

Except that both Perrin and Nynaeve have "met" GC in Tel'aran'rhiod and he came when Mat blew the horn.

[Agitel]

You're right, it can't be Uno.

 

That doesn't mean that it can't be someone older than Olver, however.

 

 

It has to be someone born around the time Gaidal left the world of dreams.

 

That would be less than two years ago.

[Agitel]

Olver is how old? 8? 9? 10?

 

However old he is, Gaidal Cain was in Tel'aran'rhiod up until some point in this series, which has only spanned a couple of years. Jordan has confirmed that time may flow oddly in the World of Dreams, quick for some, fast for others (it flows the same for people when they're together), but never backwards. Gaidal's only just been born into the world, likely to make new stories for the start of a new Age.

 

As for Mat, the only memory of a past life he's had was when he was Healed of the taint of Shadar Logoth, and that was just a brief moment. All his memories as a general were given to him by the Finn's, and they are memories collected from people who passed into the their world. The Finn's only 'record' the memories of those who've been there, and can only see events AFTER they leave, however they do it. That's why all the memories Mat has are those of adults. Mat himself confirms that multiple memories all happened at the same time, meaning that one of the men he remembers lived at the same time as another one of his memories, the lives overlap, they're not his own, they're not his soul.

 

These questions come up fairly often on the boards.

 

If Mat's memories of his life of Aemon are as brief and insignificant as you infer then there is no way in hell he would be completely fluent in the Old Tongue already.

 

The Old Tongue first started to come to him subconsciously. He didn't have any memories at the start. His first and only actual memory happened when he was Healed of the dagger. And while I am a supporter of him being Aemon, I'm not sure that's 100% confirmed.

 

Mat's ability with the Old Tongue has been greatly helped by the memories the Finn's gave him, because many of those memories go back to the days when the OT was spoken.

[Finnssss22]

Olver is how old? 8? 9? 10?

 

However old he is, Gaidal Cain was in Tel'aran'rhiod up until some point in this series, which has only spanned a couple of years. Jordan has confirmed that time may flow oddly in the World of Dreams, quick for some, fast for others (it flows the same for people when they're together), but never backwards. Gaidal's only just been born into the world, likely to make new stories for the start of a new Age.

 

As for Mat, the only memory of a past life he's had was when he was Healed of the taint of Shadar Logoth, and that was just a brief moment. All his memories as a general were given to him by the Finn's, and they are memories collected from people who passed into the their world. The Finn's only 'record' the memories of those who've been there, and can only see events AFTER they leave, however they do it. That's why all the memories Mat has are those of adults. Mat himself confirms that multiple memories all happened at the same time, meaning that one of the men he remembers lived at the same time as another one of his memories, the lives overlap, they're not his own, they're not his soul.

 

These questions come up fairly often on the boards.

 

If Mat's memories of his life of Aemon are as brief and insignificant as you infer then there is no way in hell he would be completely fluent in the Old Tongue already.

 

The Old Tongue first started to come to him subconsciously. He didn't have any memories at the start. His first and only actual memory happened when he was Healed of the dagger. And while I am a supporter of him being Aemon, I'm not sure that's 100% confirmed.

 

Mat's ability with the Old Tongue has been greatly helped by the memories the Finn's gave him, because many of those memories go back to the days when the OT was spoken.

 

His understanding of the old tongue hasn't been helped at all by the Finns, all they did was cause him to speak it in different accents.

He was already 100% fully fluent in the old tongue when he stepped through the first Doorway in Tear, evidenced by not needing a translator in the slightest like Rand and Mo did. Mo studied and knew quite a bit of the old tongue and even she needed a translator.

 

As far as whether or not he is Aemon, there is no doubt in this what so ever and if the vividness of his memory in TDR Chptr 19 isn't enough, the point is further punctuated by naming his army the Band of the Red Hand.

Just to throw in more, it should be mentioned that Aemon's wife and Queen of Manetheren Eldrene could channel, so can Tuon.

 

..and maybe a stretch but...

 

Aemon al Caar al Thorin--->

Caarthorin---->

Cauthon

[Agitel]

Well, the al'Caars and al'Thors obviously both got their family names for a reason. I wouldn't say Mat has to be descended from Aemon, but given that the Two Rivers is a small knit community then likely most everyone there is descended from Aemon at some point, given 2000 years. And Tuon doesn't have to be Eldrene. There's no call for that. Just as Avienda, Min, and Elayne aren't Ilyena.

 

As for Mat, I'm pretty sure that it was a subconscious thing before the Finns, and yes, he could switch into it fluently, but I could have sworn at some point after the second archway Rand notes that Mat's became suddenly more proficient in the Old Tongue, more consciously aware, and able to read it fluently (such as on the spear). I'll do some digging on this.

 

EDIT: I found what I was looking for. From The Shadow Rising - He Who Comes With The Dawn:

 

"There is no set formality," Rhuarc said. "How could there be, for a thing that will happen only once? When there must be a meeting between clan chiefs, there are places where something like the Peace of Rhuidean holds. The closest to Cold Rocks, the closest to Rhuidean, is Alcair Dal. You could show proofs to the clan and sept chiefs there."

 

"Al'cair Dal?" Mat said, giving it a subtly different sound. "The Golden Bowl?"

 

Rhuarc nodded. "A round canyon, though there is nothing golden about it. There is a ledge at one end, and a man who stands there can be heard by anyone in the canyon without raising his voice."

 

Rand frowned at the Dragons on his forearms. He was not the only one to have been marked in some way in Rhuidean. Mat no longer spoke a few words of the Old Tongue now and then without knowing what he was saying. He understood, since Rhuidean, though he did not appear to realize it. Egwene was watching Mat. Thoughtfully. She had spent too much time with Aes Sedai.

[Finnssss22]

Well, the al'Caars and al'Thors obviously both got their family names for a reason. I wouldn't say Mat has to be descended from Aemon, but given that the Two Rivers is a small knit community then likely most everyone there is descended from Aemon at some point, given 2000 years. And Tuon doesn't have to be Eldrene. There's no call for that. Just as Avienda, Min, and Elayne aren't Ilyena.

 

As for Mat, I'm pretty sure that it was a subconscious thing before the Finns, and yes, he could switch into it fluently, but I could have sworn at some point after the second archway Rand notes that Mat's became suddenly more proficient in the Old Tongue, more consciously aware, and able to read it fluently (such as on the spear). I'll do some digging on this.

 

EDIT: I found what I was looking for. From The Shadow Rising - He Who Comes With The Dawn:

 

"There is no set formality," Rhuarc said. "How could there be, for a thing that will happen only once? When there must be a meeting between clan chiefs, there are places where something like the Peace of Rhuidean holds. The closest to Cold Rocks, the closest to Rhuidean, is Alcair Dal. You could show proofs to the clan and sept chiefs there."

 

"Al'cair Dal?" Mat said, giving it a subtly different sound. "The Golden Bowl?"

 

Rhuarc nodded. "A round canyon, though there is nothing golden about it. There is a ledge at one end, and a man who stands there can be heard by anyone in the canyon without raising his voice."

 

Rand frowned at the Dragons on his forearms. He was not the only one to have been marked in some way in Rhuidean. Mat no longer spoke a few words of the Old Tongue now and then without knowing what he was saying. He understood, since Rhuidean, though he did not appear to realize it. Egwene was watching Mat. Thoughtfully. She had spent too much time with Aes Sedai.

 

 

Again you forget that the Finns only speak in the old tongue and when he went through the first Doorway in Tear he understood and spoke it without the slightest trouble. Hell, he didn't even realise he was speaking the OT till Rand said something when they came out.

100% fluent my friend, that's a fact.

 

The only difference after his holes were filled is that he speaks it in varying accents now as noted by Birgitte in aCoS. His shock that he was conversing with Birgitte in the OT is absolutely no different than the shock he felt after Rand points it out in Tear.

 

I grant you that Mat may not be Aemon's soul reborn but he IS most definitely a direct blood descendant, that is more than clear and confirmed by both RJ and BS.

His ancient memories previous to Rhuidean, if not due from being Aemon's soul itself, are at the very least the memories of his blood ancestors, also where his fluently speaking of the OT comes from.

[Sid]

Gaidal Cain was seen in T'A'R on Amadaine-21, NE 999 in the Panarch's Palace in Tarabon.. (June 21)

 

By Stephen Cooper's timeline (less precise with TGS but still close) Book 12's epilogue ended on Saven-23, NE 1000. (June 2)

 

Thus, the maximum age Gaidal Cain reborn can be as of the first 12 books in the series is less than a year old.

 

Birgitte is ripped out of T'A'R by Moghedien on Sep 8, NE 999. Time doesn't follow the same rules in T'A'R, resulting in Birgitte's complete inability to determine the passage of time in the 'real world' since she last saw him. She knows this, and so makes an assumption that it's possible he could already be a small boy, but didn't know that in real world time he'd still be a baby.

[Finnssss22]

Gaidal Cain was seen in T'A'R on Amadaine-21, NE 999 in the Panarch's Palace in Tarabon.. (June 21)

 

By Stephen Cooper's timeline (less precise with TGS but still close) Book 12's epilogue ended on Saven-23, NE 1000. (June 2)

 

Thus, the maximum age Gaidal Cain reborn can be as of the first 12 books in the series is less than a year old.

 

Birgitte is ripped out of T'A'R by Moghedien on Sep 8, NE 999. Time doesn't follow the same rules in T'A'R, resulting in Birgitte's complete inability to determine the passage of time in the 'real world' since she last saw him. She knows this, and so makes an assumption that it's possible he could already be a small boy, but didn't know that in real world time he'd still be a baby.

 

I could be mistaken and I'll have to confirm it later today but I could swore there were some hints provided through Thom in tEoTW in regards to souls being "reborn". He implies that it is possible for such a soul to be "inserted" later on and doesn't have to be at birth. If I remember the conversation right, he gets interrupted during it.

Too tired right now to look it up.

[Agitel]

Oh fine it's time to start quoting Jordan.

 

Question 13

Q: Are all of Mat’s memories from his past lives?

 

RJ: No, Mat’s “old” memories are not from his past lives at all. The “sickness” he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the “doorframe” ter’angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said – not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter’angreal he had used – was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter’angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter’angreal to some other world, the memories he received were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Q%26A_From_Glimmers_Prologue

 

AND

 

RV_NL: What exactly are Mat's memories, are they from his ancestors, as they all seem to be connected to Manetheren?

 

RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said I want to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Dromen_and_Demonen_Chat_6_April_2001

 

AND

 

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

 

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

 

Q: Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

 

Q: It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in T'A'R. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.

 

http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/86

 

As for Mat speaking the Old Tongue, he would slip into it without knowing at times. He spoke it when he went to the Finns. But it was far more sporadic before he went to Rhuidean. He went from it being sporadic to being able to just understand any spoken word or written word of the Old Tongue.

[Monte]

Ok, well that shuts me up on THAT one, I was clearly wrong, but it sure as hell didn't seem that way.

[Finnssss22]

Oh fine it's time to start quoting Jordan.

 

Question 13

Q: Are all of Mat’s memories from his past lives?

 

RJ: No, Mat’s “old” memories are not from his past lives at all. The “sickness” he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the “doorframe” ter’angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said – not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter’angreal he had used – was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter’angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter’angreal to some other world, the memories he received were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Q%26A_From_Glimmers_Prologue

 

AND

 

RV_NL: What exactly are Mat's memories, are they from his ancestors, as they all seem to be connected to Manetheren?

 

RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said I want to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Dromen_and_Demonen_Chat_6_April_2001

 

 

There are other Q&A's, one with Jordan that when asked specifically about his recall of Aemon upon waking after being healed and freed of the dagger, he responded cryptically the blood of Manetheren runs strong.

 

Not long ago when Sanderson was asked if Mat was Aemon's soul reborn, he wouldn't answer straight out but he did say that there is a very strong implication of Mat's bloodline.

 

 

I have no issue with the argument that Mat is not Aemon's soul reborn but he IS a direct blood relative and his old memories and his fluency in the OT previous to Rhuidean are from that line.

There is no other way to explain it.

[mb]

Like another person posted, Oliver is not Gaidal Cain.

 

 

Though Gaidal Cain I take to be already reborn. He I take to be a baby right now.

Min's Viewings of Birgitte seem to indicate those.