We know that Ishamael was spun out from time to time...but - WHY was he???

[The Fisher King]

I see 4 possibilities:

 

 

1 The DO was able to do it occasionally and just used Ish as his occasional ''Troublemaker/Wild Card'' now and then that He loosed on 3rdAge Randland to stir the pot?

 

2 Ish himself was just SO inherently strong that he was able to will himself to 'bust loose'' every so often?

 

3 There were just weakened ''holes'' in the Forsaken's Prison nearer to where Ish was slumbering. In other words: Elan just got lucky; coincidence.

 

4 The Pattern itself - maybe even the Wheel itself - is just randomly causing events like this to happen?

 

 

My thoughts: Well, for years I think I probably thought it was maybe a combination of 2 and 3, but recently I find myself more and more feeling quite strongly that the answer is more Number 1...which of course opens up a whole NEW Pandora's Box of disturbing questions regarding just what the DO's TRUE ability to affect things all these years has really been.

 

 

- Fish

[Jon Paul]

The Forsaken were trapped by a weave of the Power I assume (the same weave as the Seal). Perhaps it was a simple case of Ishy thinking on his feet and countering it to some extent?

[The Fisher King]

The Forsaken were trapped by a weave of the Power I assume (the same weave as the Seal). Perhaps it was a simple case of Ishy thinking on his feet and countering it to some extent?

 

Well, I do not know about that, but I agree that Ishy is far and away smarter than all the other Saken.

 

 

- Fish

[Evoke]

I believe the case was that the Seal on the Bore pulsated with about a thousand year intervals giving Ishamael a 40 year window during which he could walk the world. While other forsaken were trapped in deep slumber or waking nightmares he was in a position which gave him limited freedom every millenia.

[Finnssss22]

Right from the beginning we are informed that Ishamael, unlike the other 12, was only partially caught in the seal.

Obviously he was not at his full power during this time but he was still powerful enough to start the Black Ajah, had a hand in both Hawkwing's war with the White Tower and sending his armies across the ocean, corrupting the Seanchan prophecies after wards as well. He also ran the Trolloc wars.

We also know that he manipulated Jain Farstrider in some way and is very likely the one responsible for the merging of Luc and Isam.

Not to mention appearing in front of LTT and clearing his madness to see what he had done right before he killed himself.

 

Who knows what else he managed to do and what other threads he laid in the pattern for the shadow.

[The Fisher King]

Some interesting stuff I'm not sure I'd heard before - Thanks all.

 

 

 

- Fish

[coolpool]

i think it is because of the wheel. Like the wheel is neither good or evil, light or shadow, right or wrong... it is a mechonism that it always in balence, and tries to keep balence.. ( like it spins out taveren to restore balence to the pattern when it needs it)

 

so to the wheel... ihsy is just another soul, the wheel doesn't make him join the shadow... it it ishy choice to go to the shadow it is up to him..

 

also i think it is to do with balence aswell... so for there to be balence the wheel has to spin out a champion that will probally choose the light and a champion that will probally chose the shadow... so it would be unbalenced to just spin out rand's soul all the time... so there needs to be a counter balence and that is ishy..

 

your probally thinking why does the wheel want balence?? the reason i think it does is that everything in the WoT world has an oposite, there can't be one thing without something to be oposite to it such as saidin and saidar, light and darkness the DO and the Creator, th TP and th DP (Divien power). Everything in the WoT world has an oposite to balence it out...

 

with ishy and the bore, i just think he got out of that from the small sucess margin LLT had to work with (and LLT priority was sealing the DO as best as possible, not sealing th FS, they were just an added bonus), and the fact that the DO wanted to still be able to ley a finger on the world so he might have pushed ishy out more (maybe because he was already closer to the surface or maybe he thought ishy was the most loyal FS?) and then be desperarate enough do his deeds through ishy with hes weird DO-Ishy link thing he had going on with ishy..

[Tiinker]

your probally thinking why does the wheel want balence?? the reason i think it does is that everything in the WoT world has an oposite, there can't be one thing without something to be oposite to it such as saidin and saidar, light and darkness the DO and the Creator, th TP and th DP (Divien power). Everything in the WoT world has an oposite to balence it out...

 

Divine Power?? You mean OP right? Or am I seriously missing something?

[The Fisher King]

i think it is because of the wheel. Like the wheel is neither good or evil, light or shadow, right or wrong... it is a mechonism that it always in balence, and tries to keep balence.. ( like it spins out taveren to restore balence to the pattern when it needs it)

 

so to the wheel... ihsy is just another soul, the wheel doesn't make him join the shadow... it it ishy choice to go to the shadow it is up to him..

 

also i think it is to do with balence aswell... so for there to be balence the wheel has to spin out a champion that will probally choose the light and a champion that will probally chose the shadow... so it would be unbalenced to just spin out rand's soul all the time... so there needs to be a counter balence and that is ishy..

 

your probally thinking why does the wheel want balence?? the reason i think it does is that everything in the WoT world has an oposite, there can't be one thing without something to be oposite to it such as saidin and saidar, light and darkness the DO and the Creator, th TP and th DP (Divien power). Everything in the WoT world has an oposite to balence it out...

 

with ishy and the bore, i just think he got out of that from the small sucess margin LLT had to work with (and LLT priority was sealing the DO as best as possible, not sealing th FS, they were just an added bonus), and the fact that the DO wanted to still be able to ley a finger on the world so he might have pushed ishy out more (maybe because he was already closer to the surface or maybe he thought ishy was the most loyal FS?) and then be desperarate enough do his deeds through ishy with hes weird DO-Ishy link thing he had going on with ishy..

 

 

Interesting thoughts. I totally agree that one of the long-running and dominant these for WOT is and has been ''Balance.''

 

 

Great post.

 

 

 

- Fish

[coolpool]

The DP is just what some people call the Creator's power (but it is theoretical). Like i thought to metion it because the creator did create the world so he must have his own personal power, just like the DO has his own power.. maybe i shouldn't have said anything as it's exsistance isn't confirmed... soz about confusing you Tiinker..

[Nooska]

The DP is just what some people call the Creator's power (but it is theoretical). Like i thought to metion it because the creator did create the world so he must have his own personal power, just like the DO has his own power.. maybe i shouldn't have said anything as it's exsistance isn't confirmed... soz about confusing you Tiinker..

Saidar and Saidin are not enough? even though they drive the wheel and keep the world going - what channelers can do with the power does not refelct on what the Creator could do with it 'when' he created the wheel (which he never did, as the world has, by definition, always existed and always will)

[DigDatDyler]

Right from the beginning we are informed that Ishamael, unlike the other 12, was only partially caught in the seal.

Obviously he was not at his full power during this time but he was still powerful enough to start the Black Ajah, had a hand in both Hawkwing's war with the White Tower and sending his armies across the ocean, corrupting the Seanchan prophecies after wards as well. He also ran the Trolloc wars.

We also know that he manipulated Jain Farstrider in some way and is very likely the one responsible for the merging of Luc and Isam.

Not to mention appearing in front of LTT and clearing his madness to see what he had done right before he killed himself.

 

Who knows what else he managed to do and what other threads he laid in the pattern for the shadow.

 

Yup ishy wasnt fully caught and every few turnings of the wheel he was allowed free from his prison for a certain period of time

[coolpool]

View PostBookworm101, on 16 January 2011 - 05:40 PM, said:

The DP is just what some people call the Creator's power (but it is theoretical). Like i thought to metion it because the creator did create the world so he must have his own personal power, just like the DO has his own power.. maybe i shouldn't have said anything as it's exsistance isn't confirmed... soz about confusing you Tiinker..

 

Nooska, Posted 16 January 2011 - 11:36 PM

Saidar and Saidin are not enough? even though they drive the wheel and keep the world going - what channelers can do with the power does not refelct on what the Creator could do with it 'when' he created the wheel (which he never did, as the world has, by definition, always existed and always will)

(soz if i did this wrong, new to the DM community and this is the first time i have tried doing it :/)

 

i never said he created the wheel, i said he created the world... they are different things :P

 

look maybe i shouldn't have metioned the DP but using your logic why whould the DO have the TP when he could just use the OP, like you said, shouldn't that be enough? it drives the all might wheel? (like you could say that he is sealed of from the OP in his prizon so the DO has to use the TP for things but if u think this then when the prizon was breeched, the gap would allow the DO to channel the OP but he doesn't... he still uses the TP and gives use of his power to his specials.. he doesn't go "right the OP is good enough for you worms as it is the force that drives the wheel..)

 

To the question a posed above.. the answer i think is that the TP is almost like the essence of the dark one, like in TGS LLT tells rand something along the lines of (i can't remeber exactly soz soz for any inacruacies).. it is darkness and death it is him... (when rand channels the TP) but the TP is just an almost twisted form of the OP right so why would LLT say it is him when he chanels it if it was just a power... it is more than that for LLT to say that...

 

so the creator would have an essence of his own... a power that that feels of goodness instead of death, etc.. (like VoG.. it is refering to veins of light.. rand feels a bright spark that grows... so what is this bright spark that grows??? it isn't the one power and not the TP... that's why i think it is the DP... when rand sees the way and beats the shadows personal atttack to turn him... i believe that the creator granted rand the light (the DP) to be a beacon in the darkness maybe? .. (but the last bit about creator granting the DP is therortically like so :/)

 

sorry for the long reply... thats just how i see it and i hope i didn't offend you.. :S i know there are alot of asumtions but it seems logical to be like this... and RJ had a physics degree right.. and lots of physics involves equilbriums and balences.. like netwons (3rd i think) law is that for every reaction there is an oposite and equal reaction.. and quite a lot of phyicsy stuff have been decreetly slotted into the WoT world..

 

(soz fish for going of topic :/)

[mb]

title, "spun out" seems to be the wrong term. "spun out" in this series seems to apply to just these:: the rebirth of a soul (the soul born as a baby), the making of a taveren.

"released" might be more accurate, though that term does not really fit either.

 

 

As for why/how, I would guess it relates to the Pattern.

The books tell that Ishamael was not fully bound.

And the Pattern is neither good nor evil.

 

Had it been the Dark One, the Dark One might have been able to also release the other Forsaken and perhaps himself.

 

Slight chance of it being Ishamael himself since the other Forsaken seemed unable.

 

Slight chance also on the holes.