Alivia

[murf2011]

Hey guys,

 

I've just realised, that Alivia isn't in ToM (Or i just somehow skipped over her) and i was wondering, did BS make a mistake and leave her out? Or is there just going to be a lot more about her in AMoL?

[gambril]

Good question. I have no idea where Alivia was (and not even mentioned in the book that I can recall). I also haven't seen much mention about it and no questions about it really. Along with Cadsuane, I see Alivia as someone who sticks to Rands side almost always. As in, if she's not going to be present in a scene with Rand, RJ usually seemed to specifically mention where she was, that kinda of thing. So to have not even the slightest mention of her is kinda odd.

 

Did she just sit in the Stone the whole time (along with the Wise One's...I guess if Aviendha's not around Wise One's kinda get pushed back off screne generally it seems) while Rand was Traveling around. I would figure she at least went with him to Bandar Eban.

 

Lol, was Harine even mentioned? Isn't Harine another one of those characters that's supposed to be stuck to Rand's side...

[murf2011]

Good question. I have no idea where Alivia was (and not even mentioned in the book that I can recall). I also haven't seen much mention about it and no questions about it really. Along with Cadsuane, I see Alivia as someone who sticks to Rands side almost always. As in, if she's not going to be present in a scene with Rand, RJ usually seemed to specifically mention where she was, that kinda of thing. So to have not even the slightest mention of her is kinda odd.

 

Did she just sit in the Stone the whole time (along with the Wise One's...I guess if Aviendha's not around Wise One's kinda get pushed back off screne generally it seems) while Rand was Traveling around. I would figure she at least went with him to Bandar Eban.

 

Lol, was Harine even mentioned? Isn't Harine another one of those characters that's supposed to be stuck to Rand's side...

 

Haha nope, there was no mention of her whatsoever. I assume they're both just sitting in the Stone twiddling their thumbs... must be pretty boring for someone who is going to help Rand die.

[LukeDriscoll]

maybe there's just nothing for them to do rand is well looked after by cadsuane lol

[OptimusPrime]

Hey guys,

 

I've just realised, that Alivia isn't in ToM (Or i just somehow skipped over her) and i was wondering, did BS make a mistake and leave her out? Or is there just going to be a lot more about her in AMoL?

 

I reckon she'll be in AMoL a fair bit. I think Narishma Alivia and Nynaeve will be the ones who use Callandor, and they'll kill Rand with it, while Rand has the Dark One in him. Narishma will hold the sword and dance the blades with Randzamon, Alivia will be guiding the flows, and Nynaeve will be ready to stab Alivia in the back if she does something shes not meant to, which she wont

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I was think about this. Isn't there a part in the beginning when Rand says to Nineav that he wants her to be a part of his battle with the dark one but isn't sure if he wants Elayne or Avendha? It seems to me that it will be Alivia because Avendha will be pregant and so like Elayne her channelling will not be reliable enough. Elayne could have the kids by this point and Avendha still needs to get pregnant but we won't know until the last book. Also, I was think about Min's transaltion of the prophecy about Callindor where it mentions a betrayal. So Alivia 'helps' Rand die and there is some kind of betrayal when using Callindor. Would Alivia be the betrayor? How could she be the betrayor since Rand can see all Dark Friends?

[Guest DRE DEMOS]

Nice catch. I didn't notice Alivia was missing from TOM, she is one of my favorites. She is not a threat to Rand, she has shown to be a devoted ally. Alivia will help Rand fake his death, how who knows. Besides the DO and the forsaken, who will be dealt with in the Last Battle, Rand is the greatest threat to the world. At least that is how the monarchs, Seanclan, and Aes Sedai will see it.

The Dragon reborn holds Randland, the Aiel, the White and Black towers and will bind the nine moons to him. Some might believe he'll try to hold on to that power after the Last Battle, and try to assassinate him.

Rand will fake his death and sail on a boat with his three future-wives to the Land of the Madmen. He'll live there with Min and raise their children. I always thought Verin would figure this out and try to kill Rand. Unless Verin send someone a letter to kill him.

[OptimusPrime]

Nice catch. I didn't notice Alivia was missing from TOM, she is one of my favorites. She is not a threat to Rand, she has shown to be a devoted ally. Alivia will help Rand fake his death, how who knows. Besides the DO and the forsaken, who will be dealt with in the Last Battle, Rand is the greatest threat to the world. At least that is how the monarchs, Seanclan, and Aes Sedai will see it.

The Dragon reborn holds Randland, the Aiel, the White and Black towers and will bind the nine moons to him. Some might believe he'll try to hold on to that power after the Last Battle, and try to assassinate him.

Rand will fake his death and sail on a boat with his three future-wives to the Land of the Madmen. He'll live there with Min and raise their children. I always thought Verin would figure this out and try to kill Rand. Unless Verin send someone a letter to kill him.

 

Ah, but the prophecy or whatever said there will only be three on that boat. Die Min die!

[Mashiara Sedai]

I think it's "Three on the boat with he who is dead yet lives." So there will be four total. I don't see anything tragic happening to any of Rand's girls.

 

 

~Mashiara

[Kalm]

I was think about this. Isn't there a part in the beginning when Rand says to Nineav that he wants her to be a part of his battle with the dark one but isn't sure if he wants Elayne or Avendha? It seems to me that it will be Alivia because Avendha will be pregant and so like Elayne her channelling will not be reliable enough. Elayne could have the kids by this point and Avendha still needs to get pregnant but we won't know until the last book. Also, I was think about Min's transaltion of the prophecy about Callindor where it mentions a betrayal. So Alivia 'helps' Rand die and there is some kind of betrayal when using Callindor. Would Alivia be the betrayor? How could she be the betrayor since Rand can see all Dark Friends?

 

Well, there is no evidence suggesting Aviendha will get pregnant during the last battle. And it is during, because it has started already. I don't see Rand having much time to bed her. Not to mention, Elayne's channeling didn't become truly spotty till months or so into the pregnancy. I don't think the LB is gonna last that long. Rand wants to go straight to Shayol Ghul from the looks of things.

 

 

Rand will fake his death and sail on a boat with his three future-wives to the Land of the Madmen. He'll live there with Min and raise their children. I always thought Verin would figure this out and try to kill Rand. Unless Verin send someone a letter to kill him.

 

I don't think he'll sail off to live somewhere else. That's just too...LotRish. Rand is not an elf! When I see that scene, I think more of the floating funeral pyres certain cultures send off, except Elayne, Avi and Min are there for some reason. Maybe Rand's pyre floats down river and they want to accompany him on his "final" journey. Though there are shades of Boromir in that as well...Quite the dilemma really. I also think the Land of Madmen will have its place in the final book. Demandred's army could be pulled from there. It's there or Shara IMO. Though Shara has more of a precedent established already. I mean, the place is bound to have strong channelers if you only survive by avoiding death by mad Saidin-wielders. A little Dark One magic and presto! Previously unseen dreadlords who use the power in dangerous new ways.

 

How do we know about the Land of Madmen again? What characters have mentioned it in the books? All I remember is seeing it on the maps and reading about it on the (unreliable) Wiki...Shame no one has gone there. Wonder what it will be like now Saidin is cleansed? I know the madness that's already there remains but still...if anyone resisted, it would be interesting to see what kind of culture those conditions brought about. Provided there are still people there.

[moratcorlm]

How do we know about the Land of Madmen again? What characters have mentioned it in the books?

None have. It doesn't even have a hint of a mention in the Wheel of Time. It is mentioned briefly in the Guide, which is kinda-sorta-canon but not part of the series. It would be terrible writing to suddenly introduce that element in the final book.

 

As for Alivia, she's just one of a host of minor characters who have disappeared under Sanderson, except when directly plot-relevant.

[VisualPun64]

False. I don't have the exact text, but the Land of Madmen is mentioned by the Seafolk once or twice... either in LoC or FoH. I'm not sure which, but I'm on my re-readthrough and I remember that mention recently. Noal may mention in as well...

[moratcorlm]

IdealSeek shows no mentions of the Land of the Madmen except in the Guide. Nor are any of the seven usages of "madmen" in TFOH and LOC referring to anything but ordinary crazed people. If anyone can provide a citation, I'd be interested, but I can think of no references to this island in the series. Certainly none that are overt.

[VisualPun64]

I know it is mentioned... though now that I think of it, it may not be referred to as specifically the Land of Madmen, but just as an island to the south or something along those lines. I do know it is mentioned, however.

[ajfurst]

I think Alivia may be a good person for Rand to take with him to his meeting with Egwene. She's an ex-Damane, not a ex-Suldam, so you won't have any 'must kill immediately reflex' once she knows that. And with her strength she provides a very obvious reason as to why some sort of alliance with the Seanchan, to have them fight at Tarmon Gaidon is necessary.

 

Certainly I don't think it alone will push Egwene to make that large leap, but it could help.

 

It could also help with showing what Female channeling strength Rand has available. He's not Lews Therin with one group to turn to, with Egwene being able to do the Latra reborn whilst the world burns. She could help Egwene see if she just wants to block Rand, without an alternative plan, other then wait and let the Trolloc hoards continue south, she'll be left twiddling her thumbs whilst everyone else saves the world.

[moratcorlm]

Well, here's every usage of "island" in the books up to KOD. I don't see anything that even potentially refers to the "Island of the Madmen". You can look for "isle", etc., similarly fruitlessly. Perhaps you're thinking of the Sea Folk description of the far side of the Aryth Ocean as the "Islands of the Dead."

[capuga]

Well, here's every usage of "island" in the books up to KOD. I don't see anything that even potentially refers to the "Island of the Madmen". You can look for "isle", etc., similarly fruitlessly. Perhaps you're thinking of the Sea Folk description of the far side of the Aryth Ocean as the "Islands of the Dead."

 

Don't the Sea Folk make a subtle reference to an island that their men that can channel can choose to be dropped off at instead of carrying an anchor to the bottom of the ocean? I always assumed that was the Island of Madmen.

[moratcorlm]

Certainly not in TFOH or LOC.

“Men who can channel are given a choice,” Harine said. “They can either step from the bow of their ship holding a stone which is also tied to their legs, or they can be dropped off on a barren isle with no food or water. The second is considered the more shameful option, but some few do take it, to live for a brief time longer.”

The Island of the Madmen shown in the maps is a continent that apparently can sustain a population, not some dinky atoll without game or fresh water. And yes, I know the arguments that can be made about that, but I don't buy them. The Sea Folk aren't going to take a several-thousand-mile trip to the other side of the planet to drop off one channeler.

[mossman87]

How do we know about the Land of Madmen again? What characters have mentioned it in the books?

None have. It doesn't even have a hint of a mention in the Wheel of Time. It is mentioned briefly in the Guide, which is kinda-sorta-canon but not part of the series. It would be terrible writing to suddenly introduce that element in the final book.

 

As for Alivia, she's just one of a host of minor characters who have disappeared under Sanderson, except when directly plot-relevant.

 

I love people who say things so strongly yet they have no idea what's actually going on, I admire you in a way.

[moratcorlm]

Strongly? I said nothing strongly, except for the fourth sentence, which is simply an opinion. Short declarative sentences are suited to shooting down tiresome theories, and theories about the Land of the Madmen are less well-founded than just about any others that have similar purchase in the fandom. The question of whether the Land of the Madmen has been mentioned outside the Guide is one of fact, and not even particularly esoteric fact; anyone who's read the series should be able to answer it, with the excellent online resources we have nowadays. If you think that that's something which we "have no idea what's actually going on" about, we'll have to disagree.

 

Here is the entirety of what Robert Jordan (or Teresa Patterson) wrote about the Land of the Madmen:

Approximately equidistant from Seanchan’s borders and roughly south of our land across the Sea of Storms is the third continent. Nameless, except to its inhabitants, it was discovered by the Sea Folk, who call it “the Land of the Madmen” and do their best to avoid it. Until this publication, they were the only ones even aware of its existence. The Sea Folk have not even tried to chart its shoreline, though they do state that the continent is approximately seven hundred and fifty leagues across and five hundred leagues from north to south, with its southern coast extending to within five hundred miles of the southern icecap.

 

Many active volcanoes are located along the coastline, easily visible from the sea. Earthquakes and large storms are common in these seas, and icebergs are a constant danger to any ships that travel far south of the northern edge of the continent, possibly owing to the numerous earthquakes cracking the edge of the icecap.

 

The Sea Folk tell fearsome tales of those who chanced to go ashore on the Land of the Madmen and made it back to their ships. The natives apparently never recovered from the Breaking, and never managed to reestablish order of any kind. The people are reported to live in wretched hovels in small, primitive villages. Any foreigner runs the risk of encountering channelers of either sex. The male channelers are frequently insane, of course, due to the taint, but the women are just as dangerous and unpredictable. If the stranger meets no channelers, he is simply overwhelmed by a mob of villagers who attempt to kill on sight anyone unknown to them. There seems no possibility of peaceful contact.

Here's everything that was said about the Land of the Madmen in interviews:

Andrew Sullivan on Twitter - 10 January 2011

Will far off lands like Shara or the Land of Madmen play an important role in the last book?

Brandon

RAFO. Though RJ said we'd never go to Shara, at least not in any major way. He was less firm on the Madmen.

Matthías Páll on Twitter 8 November 2010

Will we see more from Shara or the Land of the Madmen?

Brandon

RJ said there would be no major action in Shara. He was uncertain on Madmen.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Powell's Books, Portland, OR 19 November 2009 - Samadai reporting

 

Man-o-Manetheren: Will we hear anything more about Shara or the Land of Madmen?

Brandon: RAFO

 

Nightbaron: Is Shara or the Land of Madmen involved in the Last Battle?

Brandon: RAFO

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, BYU Midnight Release 27 October 2009 - Jennifer McBride reporting

 

Question (Claire): Will we see the Land of Madmen in any of the last books?

Answer: RAFO.

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

 

Q: There is one place, one continent, you wrote about it only in the Guide. It’s the Land of Madmen. What is this?

RJ: It is a place where [there] was never was a White Tower, or any other organization of Aes Sedai, to effect any control over men who could channel. Therefore, no civilization was able to rise up there again after the Breaking. It is still a place where men who can channel can be found (much more). [They are] hunted by women who can channel, because they’re very dangerous. Anybody else, for that matter, if they can find a way to kill them. It’s like, if you find out you have a tiger loose in your neighborhood and you have to kill it. You can’t leave it running loose; somebody has to kill it.

CNN Chat 12 December 2000

 

Question from Cameo_Vox: The Land of Madmen is mentioned in the coffee table book. Do you have any plans on incorporating it into one of the next books?

Robert Jordan: Read and find out! There are some things I might do that might take place there, but those things could also just as well be done in other places.

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 2000

 

David from Austin: When will the Land of Madmen (as shown in the Guide) come into play, and are you considering ever making a second edition of the Guide?

RJ: As for when or if it will come into play, read and find out.

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 1997

 

Jason Verner from TX: Do you have any plans for introducing the land of madness [Land of Madmen] into the Wheel of Time series besides its mention in the guide, and if so, can you elaborate a little?

RJ: Read and find out.

If you want to disagree that it would be bad writing to introduce the Land of the Madmen in the final book, fine; I'm not going to argue about that. If someone can produce a quotation from the books that refers to the LOTM, I'll be happy to say I was wrong. But neither my memory nor my brief research is turning up anything.

[mossman87]

Damn dude, taking this way too serious.

 

Edit: Not a bad thing, though obsession is.

[FarShainMael]

As for Alivia, she's just one of a host of minor characters who have disappeared under Sanderson, except when directly plot-relevant.

 

I wouldn't describe someone who is supposed to 'help Rand die' as a minor character.

[Luckers]

Moratcorlm is quite correct. The Land of the Madmen is neither mentioned nor referenced in the series itself.

[Kalm]

Wow, wow. Certainly didn't think my comment on LoM would bring about such a response. We've gone way off-topic guys. Though, to be fair, it was a limited discussion.

 

Anyway, not to abandon a fire I started, when I talked about the LoM and Demandred's army it was perhaps in haste or excitement. I do agree with Moratcorlm in that it would be bad writing to suddenly make it a major plot point in the series so late. Nothing in the books gives any rise to it: no characters are from there, no POV's of people visiting the place, no visuals, no descriptions, no mentions, no nothing. Not even a visit from our friend the wind. Shoehorning it in would be a cheapening of the reader's experience, and the very nature of WoT, where every thread seems to be carefully pulled through the series. Weaved, if you will. However, there are certain ways it could work; certain ways that I imagine could happen, given RJ's "not so firm" stance on the LoM appearing.

 

The Shadow needs Dreadlords. I do not have the figures on hand, (I'm sure there's a thread about military numbers somewhere), but the Shadow's advantage seems to be in the number of Trollocs and sheer bodies it can commit to the LB. Its most powerful channelers have undergone a dispatching throughout the series, leaving the Light with channelers that are Forsaken-level without opposition. Nynaeve, Alivia, Rand, Logain, Egwene, Aviendha, Miss Grandmother-woman who upsets the Aes Sedai so much (Can't remember her name right now), the Sea Folk girl (Verin made off with her sometime no?) and possibly Damane that we have not been introduced to (The Seanchan will fight the Shadow, that much is certain). Counter that with what? Demandred, Moridin, Graendal,Lanfear and...Taim? Lanfear and Graendal seem to have fallen extremely out of favour, but I assume favour won't matter when it comes to taking care of business. Moridin does not seem to be the one to lead the army into battle. Maybe as Ishamael, but now it seems he's reserved for locking horns with Rand, on a philosophical, intellectual and channeling level as the last barrier between him and the sealing of the Bore...or would that be Shaidar Haran? Demandred also seems poised to take stabs at Rand. Specifically, in a rage. Taim and Logain's confrontation has been foreshadowed and talked about for years. Light advantage.

 

Now obviously, that leaves us with the lesser channelers. People like Narishma, Cadsuane, Moiraine (Her Angreal makes her greater than she was before, which was strong by WT standards. Was), etc. The Light has tons of people to throw at the Shadow here. The Aes Sedai alone number in the higher hundreds now, thanks to Egwene, and the Black Ajah presence is gone from among them as best we can tell. Even if the majority are Novices and Accepted, things like healing, links, and wards will come in extremely handy, situations where the Accepted and Novices can perform under (arguably) less pressure. Then of course we have the BT, which seems to be split down the middle. AFAIK, they are near the 500 mark, and were split down the middle a while ago as to Taim's faction and Logain. Now, this is where the Shadow may have an advantage. Not a sizable one, considering the AS numbers dwarf what the Asha'man can muster, and the men can't link, but in terms of the BT by itself it is one. Now, IMO Taim's core group is not half of the BT's numbers. It seems to me that the large part of his supporters went over simply to avoid the conflict. I would give him a 1/4 to 1/3 of the BT's manpower.

 

Then we have the other groups of Channelers: Sea Folk, Wise Ones, Damane, the Kin. Damane are battle ready. The Sea Folk have no qualms about wielding the power as a weapon (skirmishes with the Seanchan have upped their experience here as well) and the WOs seem ready to do what is necessary. The Kin provide numerous skills and information, not to mention additional healing and gateway support.

 

In all, the Lightside looks to have upwards of 1500 channelers at its disposal. There is potential to be far more, but the WT is the only channeling force we know that is devoid of DFs. The Damane and Sea Folk could be extremely compromised. So could the WOs and Kin, but the Kin's weakness seems to preclude them from heavy consideration by the Shadow, at least in my mind. The WOs are a big "?" at this point and I've seen more than a few questions about DF WOs. Still a Light advantage, however.

 

So how can the Shadow possibly combat this?

 

Shara, and to a lesser extent, the LoM.

 

We know little of either place. We do know that Shara is organised, and the channeling population seems to be maintained, with the large focus on women channelers. Judging by the numbers that the Light side has garnered leading up to the LB and the size of both places we can guess that Shara has a good number of channelers. I am hesitant to put a number, as the maps I'm looking at seem misleading, but I would guess over 400 at least.

 

The Shadow is still at a disadvantage, but the gap is closing. 400 Sharans, 160 or so Asha'man, 50 DF AS that got away from the purge, potentially hundreds of DF Sea Folk and/or Damane (depending on their overall numbers, which I just don't know right now) and the channelers the Shadow could have brought themselves ("there is a ______ in the blight" anyone?).So where is the little bit they need to get over the hump and provide those overwhelming odds that the series needs to keep its tension? The LoM.

 

Finally, we reach my point. Now, I know that it would be quite the machination to have a significant number of channelers appear from nowhere. However, considering the numbers at play already, over 200 or so "mysterious" power-wielders dispersed throughout the LB would not be out of the question.

 

Picture a scene in AMoL where the two sides are locked in furious battle. Each side, is fairly conventional, if unpredictable with their tactics. For the sake of this metaphor, they are using swords. Now, out of nowhere the Light receives a shotgun blast the Shadow pulls out on a whim. That is the impression I have of the LoM's impact on the battle. A tiny number of channelers whose ideas and beliefs of the power are so foreign that the way they use it is unexpected, unpredictable and impossible to effectively counter initially. This sets up room for a narrative covering stuff like:

 

-Strange clothes

-Strange language

-Sudden appearance and disappearance (possible large effect on the battle field initially, but easily dispatched afterwards)

 

This would allow a small reference to the mysterious place heretofore unmentioned, without the LoM having been mentioned or placed in the book at all. You could argue Shara as a fulfillment of this role, but IMO to ask 600 channelers from a place that is not bigger than Randland without institutions that are based on the power is a bit much, especially when the full number of AS is around 800 or so. A simple sequence such as this would suffice, IMO:

 

"The Aes Sedai in front of Narishma was violently thrown to the side, her torso split open and burning strange colours, another unknown weave in an already confused battle. Its origin seemed to be a strangely dressed woman darting in and out of the onrushing Trollocs, shouting in some mangled tongue. Blood and ashes, but if she would only hold still, he could hope to recognize who he had to kill next. Linked as he was with (insert Narishma's AS here), her weaves were not invisible to him, and her lack of defenses he could recognize was curious. Hesitation was death, however. It was knowledge even the youngest Borderlander kept close to heart, and he lashed out with Saidin, crushing the fist of Trollocs she had plunged into. Around the battle field, he spotted similar occurrences: A wild-haired man incinerated by a fireball after running headlong into a group of soldiers and plowing through them like a boulder. Men suddenly pulled into the ground as if it had become water, while another strange man skipped across it in their midst, solid as it had ever been. A volley of arrows then cut his walk short. He had never seen the power used in this manner, and with such...disregard. It was as if they were all mad."

 

I know this is at odds with my whole "Demandred's army" thing considering how substantial a force his army would have to be, but as a small piece of that puzzle, it would certainly fit. IMO, at least. So...back to Alivia now?

[Owayn The Traveller]

As for Alivia, she's just one of a host of minor characters who have disappeared under Sanderson, except when directly plot-relevant.

 

I wouldn't describe someone who is supposed to 'help Rand die' as a minor character.

 

Narishma, 'the one who follows after', is rather a minor character. Logain despite how cool he is, I prefer Taim, so far ,apart from his involvement in healing stilling, is not really integral to the plot and so many more cool and interesting characters that we all like are minor characters. Alvia is interesting but so far not really important and if her plot culmination is any thing like some of the other plot lines that have been cleared up in the last two books, it will be nothing close to what it has been built up to be.

The minor or characters that have importance but get little screen time have been culled ruthlessly in the last two books and its a shame but otherwise we could of got at least five more books instead of three. I for one would of loved that.