will Rand "kneel before the Chrystal Throne" to gain the use of Damane?

[Jpat2033]

I am not a big "poster" here, but having read the series now for 20+ years, Something just occured to me: Female AesSeai have an issue with linking in order to seal the dark ones prison. Why? This has occured in both ages. Not to sound Sexist (as a Married man with three daughters), there is and will always be a certain level of timidness associated with the females, who are not conditioned to the harshness. The Seanchan only know war. It has been stated in other books their homeland is constantly in a state of succesion. You are a hard person to assasinate your own brother; But Tuon also knows the importance of the last battle (although I am not so sure she believes it is coming). None the less, here are my points:

1. The Hall does not support breaking the seals.

2. Tuon has a knowledge of tactics, and would understand the importance of the sealing.

3. THe Damane are "soldiers", weapons of war. THe use of Damane and Suldam provide an interesting (albeit unknown) amount of the One Power. They will do as ordered.

 

So, my theory is this:

 

1. The White Tower will not join with The Dragon.

2. Knowing that he needs the Female Half, Al 'Thor seeks out the Seanchan, Promising them Peace for the exchange of the use of Damane.

3. Tuon, knowing that Mat will lead the Band to cover Al 'Thor's and his strike teams assault, will ride with the "Prince of the Ravens" to be with him, and ensure Damane use; HENCE Seanchan "Honor" in the assault, and solidifying her status as a leader.

4. This in turn ensures the Seanchan holdings through Mat, and the cooperation of the Seanchan makes their Stakes more palatable to the other kingdoms (of course, The Queen of Andor has already bestowed lands and titles on Mat, forging an alliance with Andor).

 

Thoughts? Please feel free to comment. Not much else to do on a cold snowy day...

[AshaShan]

I am not a big "poster" here, but having read the series now for 20+ years, Something just occured to me: Female AesSeai have an issue with linking in order to seal the dark ones prison. Why? This has occured in both ages. Not to sound Sexist (as a Married man with three daughters), there is and will always be a certain level of timidness associated with the females, who are not conditioned to the harshness. The Seanchan only know war. It has been stated in other books their homeland is constantly in a state of succesion. You are a hard person to assasinate your own brother; But Tuon also knows the importance of the last battle (although I am not so sure she believes it is coming). None the less, here are my points:

1. The Hall does not support breaking the seals.

2. Tuon has a knowledge of tactics, and would understand the importance of the sealing.

3. THe Damane are "soldiers", weapons of war. THe use of Damane and Suldam provide an interesting (albeit unknown) amount of the One Power. They will do as ordered.

 

So, my theory is this:

 

1. The White Tower will not join with The Dragon.

2. Knowing that he needs the Female Half, Al 'Thor seeks out the Seanchan, Promising them Peace for the exchange of the use of Damane.

3. Tuon, knowing that Mat will lead the Band to cover Al 'Thor's and his strike teams assault, will ride with the "Prince of the Ravens" to be with him, and ensure Damane use; HENCE Seanchan "Honor" in the assault, and solidifying her status as a leader.

4. This in turn ensures the Seanchan holdings through Mat, and the cooperation of the Seanchan makes their Stakes more palatable to the other kingdoms (of course, The Queen of Andor has already bestowed lands and titles on Mat, forging an alliance with Andor).

 

Thoughts? Please feel free to comment. Not much else to do on a cold snowy day...

 

You are overlooking the Wise Ones, Windfinders, the Kin, dragonsworn Aes Sedai, independant Aes Sedai like Cadsuane's faction and individual channelers like Alivia. Rand doesn't need to humble himself to Egwene or Tuon in order to gain female channeling support.

[gary0044187]

also, damane on adam cannot link with anyone so seanchan are worthless for that task. he can get what he needs from the other female power using groups that are around. the existence of those other groups does tend to make the AS more and more irrelevant though. I see them working with him just to try to maintain some relevance though.

[Finnssss22]

It is also known that the Seanchan prophecies of the Dragon are corrupted by Ishy.

Even full copies brought with Hawkwing's armies when they left all those years ago, somehow ended up tainted as well.

So whether the Dragon is actually supposed to kneel before the Crystal Throne is doubtful imo.

[Androl]

If Rand "kneels before the Chrystal Throne" it will not be to Tuon/Fortuona, it would be the the "Murder and Trator" who sits the Crystal Throne per ToM.

 

I do not believe that there is time for the Seanchan to take back the homeland before the Last Battle.

 

So if he Kneels to Toun/Fortuona it would be kneeling to the Nine Moons. But the phrophacies do not say that, they say "he will Bind the Nine Moons".

[MattTaz]

Yep agreed with above - Seanchan prophecies were corrupted by Ishy and Rand will 'bind the 9 moons to serve him'

The word bind sounds more sinister than just a Treaty.

As someone metioned before, the Finns said to Mat that he is the 'centre of it all'

If Teslyn gave Egwene Mat's message about the HoV, unless she had a brain snap she would have mentioned

that he is married to the Empress.

Egwene hates the Seanchan and wouldnt give the HoV to them via Mat, but she is tied together with Tuon somehow and also

dreamt of the Seanchan saving the WT as well as attacking it, (which has already happened).

Egwene could use the HoV as a bargaining tool - agree to fight for Rand, stop invading other countries and when you

return to reclaim Seanchan I just might give you the HoV or whatever terms she likes.

Its a pretty big thing the HoV and Hawkwing does lead the 'Heroes'. It has to come into play. I dont think Egwene

will just go 'here Mat take it. And give my regards to your wife' :P

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Yep agreed with above - Seanchan prophecies were corrupted by Ishy and Rand will 'bind the 9 moons to serve him'

The word bind sounds more sinister than just a Treaty.

As someone metioned before, the Finns said to Mat that he is the 'centre of it all'

If Teslyn gave Egwene Mat's message about the HoV, unless she had a brain snap she would have mentioned

that he is married to the Empress.

Egwene hates the Seanchan and wouldnt give the HoV to them via Mat, but she is tied together with Tuon somehow and also

dreamt of the Seanchan saving the WT as well as attacking it, (which has already happened).

Egwene could use the HoV as a bargaining tool - agree to fight for Rand, stop invading other countries and when you

return to reclaim Seanchan I just might give you the HoV or whatever terms she likes.

Its a pretty big thing the HoV and Hawkwing does lead the 'Heroes'. It has to come into play. I dont think Egwene

will just go 'here Mat take it. And give my regards to your wife' :P

 

 

You don't honestly believe for one second that the Seanchan would sit down and treatise/negotiate with the likes of an Amyrlin? The entire series has repeatedly stated the frustration the Aes Sedai felt towards the Seanchan, since they finally ran across a society they couldn't approach, manipulate, control or influence. The issue was so vexing due to the fact that the Seanchan would not even afford the courtesy of negotiation or discussion.

 

Hence the notion that Egwene could press any demands on the Seanchan seems kind of incredolous. At best there might be some dealings through a proxy party, such as perhaps Mat, to come to some common understanding between the two parties. Such as the Horn of Valere in return for restricted military activities, however the dealings would go over the proxy party. Making the whole thing rather unstable.

[moratcorlm]

Several of Egwene's dreams indicate a forthcoming alliance between the Tower and the Seanchan, perhaps a broad front against Rand's plan to break the seals. Other foreshadowing indicates that it will be Mat who facilitates an agreement between the Seanchan and Rand, using Artur Hawkwing's sword in the bargain.

[David Selig]

If Teslyn gave Egwene Mat's message about the HoV, unless she had a brain snap she would have mentioned

that he is married to the Empress.

I really hope this hasn't happened and that Teslyn and co has kept this secret so far, it would be a real shame if the scene of Egwene learning that Mat has married the Seanchan Empress has happened offscreen. I really want to see Egwene's reaction to this news, preferably after Mat tells her himself.

[MattTaz]

Yep agreed with above - Seanchan prophecies were corrupted by Ishy and Rand will 'bind the 9 moons to serve him'

The word bind sounds more sinister than just a Treaty.

As someone metioned before, the Finns said to Mat that he is the 'centre of it all'

If Teslyn gave Egwene Mat's message about the HoV, unless she had a brain snap she would have mentioned

that he is married to the Empress.

Egwene hates the Seanchan and wouldnt give the HoV to them via Mat, but she is tied together with Tuon somehow and also

dreamt of the Seanchan saving the WT as well as attacking it, (which has already happened).

Egwene could use the HoV as a bargaining tool - agree to fight for Rand, stop invading other countries and when you

return to reclaim Seanchan I just might give you the HoV or whatever terms she likes.

Its a pretty big thing the HoV and Hawkwing does lead the 'Heroes'. It has to come into play. I dont think Egwene

will just go 'here Mat take it. And give my regards to your wife' :P

 

 

You don't honestly believe for one second that the Seanchan would sit down and treatise/negotiate with the likes of an Amyrlin? The entire series has repeatedly stated the frustration the Aes Sedai felt towards the Seanchan, since they finally ran across a society they couldn't approach, manipulate, control or influence. The issue was so vexing due to the fact that the Seanchan would not even afford the courtesy of negotiation or discussion.

 

Hence the notion that Egwene could press any demands on the Seanchan seems kind of incredolous. At best there might be some dealings through a proxy party, such as perhaps Mat, to come to some common understanding between the two parties. Such as the Horn of Valere in return for restricted military activities, however the dealings would go over the proxy party. Making the whole thing rather unstable.

 

Yep I do actually. The HoV is one of the most powerful thing in the world. Power Power Power. Very intoxicating. Removes all doubts :P

Mat is the Hornsounder. Tuon would think its hers by right. If Egwene said I'll give you the HoV if you sign this treaty. Would you say no?

Tuon is tied to Egwene. Tied was her words by the way.

Way back in the earlier books, one of the viewings/dreams was of Rand confronting some angry women (Egwene, Elayne, Wise Ones, etc)

and one of them was a Seanchan

Most likely someone important like Tuon rather than those suldam or Eaginin who are pretty irelevant.

The Seanchan will fight at the LB. I think Tuon will come across Egwene at some stage

Thats why I said binding was a negative type of word. This alliance will be uncomfortabel to say the least

If Mat, Rand and Perrin are there, well as Morgase said about Perrin 'i've seen the world bend around him. i've seen bitter enemies

become allies. to fight the pattern itself is to try and move a mountain with a spoon'

[Ozzie_aiel]

it could be taken that Tuon became bound to the Dragon Reborn the moment she married Mat.

[MattTaz]

it could be taken that Tuon became bound to the Dragon Reborn the moment she married Mat.

 

Well she didnt seem that 'bound' to him when they met and definetely didnt 'serve him' :)

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Several of Egwene's dreams indicate a forthcoming alliance between the Tower and the Seanchan, perhaps a broad front against Rand's plan to break the seals. Other foreshadowing indicates that it will be Mat who facilitates an agreement between the Seanchan and Rand, using Artur Hawkwing's sword in the bargain.

 

 

I always wondered who had a better claim to that sword. It was forged, created and worn by Guaire Amalasan. Hence all the Dragons and prophecy emblem markings on it. Does Hawkwing taking it from Amalasan necessarily make it Hawkwings sword? I fail to see how much connection Hawkwing has with Dragons. I also wonder why in superstitious Randland people (besides Rand) would actually seek to possess an object created, worn and symbolized by a man who could channel.

[shaiel]

It is also known that the Seanchan prophecies of the Dragon are corrupted by Ishy.

Even full copies brought with Hawkwing's armies when they left all those years ago, somehow ended up tainted as well.

So whether the Dragon is actually supposed to kneel before the Crystal Throne is doubtful imo.

This is what i thought... but the ending propecy of TGS is Seanchan AND correct. Really weird.

 

So, i think this propecy will fulfil, somehow, but rand couldn't really care less about using damane.

(If he is really going to bow/kneel to someone, this someone is tuon, even if the CT is in seanchan etc)

I also think the woman in eg's dream is Egeanin. She is going to Tar Valon, BTW and she does carry a sword.

 

PS: That sword is overpriced :D

[akira.taylor]

It is also known that the Seanchan prophecies of the Dragon are corrupted by Ishy.

Even full copies brought with Hawkwing's armies when they left all those years ago, somehow ended up tainted as well.

So whether the Dragon is actually supposed to kneel before the Crystal Throne is doubtful imo.

This is what i thought... but the ending propecy of TGS is Seanchan AND correct. Really weird.

 

So, i think this propecy will fulfil, somehow, but rand couldn't really care less about using damane.

(If he is really going to bow/kneel to someone, this someone is tuon, even if the CT is in seanchan etc)

I also think the woman in eg's dream is Egeanin. She is going to Tar Valon, BTW and she does carry a sword.

 

PS: That sword is overpriced :D

 

Actually, I believe Sanderson has said that both sets of prophesies (The Karaethon Cycle - the Essanik Cycle is seperate, and only in Seanchan) were . . . altered. Partly, that is translation issues, copying issues, etc, but also issues of people saying "it should say this, because that helps me," and being able to make it stick. So, the comment about "kneeling before the Crystal Throne" may or may not be in the original version. There is also the issue that we have never seen the actual statement in the prophesies (I think on one occasion, it was given as "bow," which seems more likely to be correct). As others have said, Tuon needs to actually quote the passages in question for us.

 

Edit: found the quote:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Question: We know that the Karaethon Cycle and the Essanik Cycle are different. Is that because there were different contributors to each, or some other reason (like tampering by Ishamael)? Which is more correct?

Answer: The Essanik cycle had only in Seanchan and there were different contributors. Which is more correct? I’m not going to say which is more correct. There has been tampering…

Question: In both?

Answer: People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what the Essanik cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.