Aludra's cannons and the Seanchan

[USURP888]

this is the op. Let us get back to it. Interesting that you think Damane will be replaced by technology. I can only see that if they come up with more technology than they have so far. Damane can do far more than steam engines and cannon. Steam engines cannot move from one city to another in a blink of an eye. Cannon cannot produce wind shields. I do not see mat giving Tuon these tools, he promised not to. My only other point is that I think seanchan were originally going to be enlightened by AS like Carlinya. Seems it will not happen now.

 

To be honest, I have not thought about the other uses of Damane like travelling and healing, but I am still thinking that the cannons would be part of the bargain as far as getting the seanchan to accept a truce for the last battle. Don't know why to tell the truth, it's just stuck in my head somehow.

[socom-delta]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

 

 

the greatest affront the White Tower makes to humanity is that ONLY channelers are allowed to join. This is NOT how it was in the Age of Legends, when the Hall of Servants was genuinely a force for good. All were welcome to join. Seek power, knowledge, or serve, whatever you desire.

 

I FULLY agree with the notion that the WT is (paraphrased) a despotic institution. What's worse is that Egwene herself probably refuses to acknowledge this. Their greatest failing is the rather forceful hand they take in global politics: the betrayal of Manetheren, the servitude of kings and queens (Elaida had a painting of a king kneeling to an Amyrlin), the kidnapping of the Dragon and the King of Illian... it's all rather evil IMHO, cowing the people to follow you out of fear. It's EXACTLY what the Seanchan does, just differently. In fact, the Seanchan do it better because they only REALLY force *CHANNELERS* to follow them by making them slaves - everyone is free to continue their lives and live in peace. Da'covale not withstanding, of course...

 

As sad as it is for me to admit this, I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the nations sided with the Seanchan. Their one major shortcoming is that they have embraced slavery, the most evil institution in human history. Aside from this, their society is SUPERIOR. Rand himself acknowledges this when he visits Ebou Dar in book #12 (or was it book #11?).

 

No, the only way peace can come is if the Seanchan Empire is made to see the evils of slavery. The second step would be to get them to release damane (and possibly da'covale), but this would almost certainly be a conditional release. It would ONLY happen if the channelers were relegated to the same status that they were in the Age of Legends, truly as "Servants of All". They would have to reduce their political position for the greater good, and I HIGHLY doubt this will happen.

 

It would be nothing short of a miracle.

 

Further, I think Aviendha is going to convince the chiefs and the Wise Ones to take responsibility for themselves and bring about some major change on their own, WITHOUT the Rand's explicit approval. They may very well lay down their spears and declare themselves Dai'shain Aiel again; doubtful, but it may be done! Very few will follow this, 'a remnant of a remnant'

 

-edit-

 

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't know if any of that will happen. The way people are peaceful and relatively free of crime under the Seanchan kinda reminds me of the AoL. :O

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Exactly. I do not see the Seanchan releasing the damane until there would be ironclad guarantees that channelers would never attain the ability to negatively impact, corrupt or destroy society. As the poster above me said, the damane would probably only be released and the practice stopped if institutions such as the White Tower disbanded or reverted strongly to a servitude status such as in the AOL.

 

The Seanchan would be foolish to release or end the damane (system) for anything less. They are in the position of power and they can dictate the rules. Both sides are in the wrong, the WT and the Seanchan. The ideal is to meet halfway. Because how many more common people have to suffer Aes Sedai conspiracies and spite such as in the betrayal of Manetheren in the Trolloc Wars, the antagonism of Artur Hawkwing prior to the Hundred Years war, the betrayal of Malkier by the White Tower, the attempt to instate a puppet government onto the crown of Cairhien, the kidnapping of the Illian King, etc.. etc..

 

The White Tower gives justification a hundred times over for the mission statement of why the Seanchan take damane or why they say it is pertinent to segregate channelers from society to safeguard the people and keep society stable. The methodology is morally questionable, the intent is certainly not.

 

The White Tower and the channeling parties need to negotiate an armistice by which they institute a system which breaks the power of the White Tower and ensures that never again will a consortium of channelers arise possessing the will and power conspire to such a degree against the common folk and nations as the White Tower had done of the centuries. In return the Seanchan will end the paranoid and security orientated practice of preemptively enslaving all channelers. Otherwise there remains very little purpose or point for the Seanchan to end the damane practice. The Seanchan need to be able to guarantee it's people safety, security and protection from the likes of institutions such as the White Tower.

[RedRaider]

The biggest obstacle for peace ( or at least a ceasefire ) between the Seanchan and the rest of Randland is the issue of Damane. The Seanchan would not part with their weapon and the AS, wiseones and the seafolk will not rest easy while there is a constant threat of them getting collared, not to mention those that have already been collared.

 

I feel like the best inducement for the seanchan to stop collaring damane is to convince them that it is an obsolete "technology" and that Aludra's cannons are the weapons of the future. Certainly Tuon saw the potential of the repeating crossbow as a very big advantage and I am sure she will be quick to realize the firepower of the dragons just as Elayne and Birgette had.

 

Mat has the plans and I think he might use it to bargain with tuon in order to get them to unite with the rest of the randland armies that will be under his command. The only problem here is that Aludra hates the Seanchan and will never allow the cannons to be shared with the Seanchan. Therefore, I have this odd feeling that she will die somehow. I know it is not in any of the prophecies but I can't seem to shake this theory in my mind.

 

They aren't wearing a collar because they are the ultimate weapon. They are wearing a collar because the Seanchan fear their power. Even if they are obsolete, which they aren't, they would still be coallared until the Seanchan get over their fear of channelers, which Hawkwing himself instilled.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The biggest obstacle for peace ( or at least a ceasefire ) between the Seanchan and the rest of Randland is the issue of Damane. The Seanchan would not part with their weapon and the AS, wiseones and the seafolk will not rest easy while there is a constant threat of them getting collared, not to mention those that have already been collared.

 

I feel like the best inducement for the seanchan to stop collaring damane is to convince them that it is an obsolete "technology" and that Aludra's cannons are the weapons of the future. Certainly Tuon saw the potential of the repeating crossbow as a very big advantage and I am sure she will be quick to realize the firepower of the dragons just as Elayne and Birgette had.

 

Mat has the plans and I think he might use it to bargain with tuon in order to get them to unite with the rest of the randland armies that will be under his command. The only problem here is that Aludra hates the Seanchan and will never allow the cannons to be shared with the Seanchan. Therefore, I have this odd feeling that she will die somehow. I know it is not in any of the prophecies but I can't seem to shake this theory in my mind.

 

They aren't wearing a collar because they are the ultimate weapon. They are wearing a collar because the Seanchan fear their power. Even if they are obsolete, which they aren't, they would still be coallared until the Seanchan get over their fear of channelers, which Hawkwing himself instilled.

 

 

Do you blame Hawkwing for his intense hatred? I mean I would be just as spiteful against channelers if I were him considering all the wonderful machinations, sabotage and schemes that Aes Sedai fomented against him. As Ishamael said he barely had to manipulate Hawkwing as the fire was already there due to an incredibly borderline megalomaniac Amyrlin. All Ishamael had to ensure was that no reconciliation would take place.

 

Also not helping matters was when Luthair arrived on the new continent was that local consortiums of channelers were also manipulating, terrorizing and making everyone's life miserable by preventing a strong stable society to form.

[Mr Ares]

You know, it gets more then a little tiring hearing this excuse time and time again by people who defend the white tower. The people raising Elaida knew what she was like. They knew that she would probably try to kidnap or gentle the dragon reborn and they raised her anyway. When she sent sisters to kidnap Rand and attack the black tower the hall did nothing. The white tower is just as responsible for those actions as Elaida is.

 

No this doesn't mean that the white tower is all bad. They do help protect the world against men who can channel and they do offer healing to anyone who comes to the tower but overall the world would probably be a better place without them in it.

The people who raised Elaida knew what she was like? She had been out of the Tower for many years, returning only recently. True, as advisor to Morgase she wouldn't have been off the radar entirely, but I think it's a bit much to suggest that the Hall is comprised solely of people who are wonderful judges of character, who knew what she was like, and who went along with it. When she sent sisters to kidnap the Dragon and attack the BT, the Hall didn't know. That's probably the biggest part of why they didn't do anything against it, not universal support. Really, I fail to see how the world would be significantly improved by the absence of AS - they might not do much to help the world, but they do more to help it than to hinder it. Take away the AS playing politics, and you are left with... everyone else playing politics.

 

The sitters in the tower should have had some idea about Elaidas personality especially in regards to men who can channel. Elaida is one of the most prominent sisters in the tower. She stands in the first rank in power, has been advisor to the largest nation for 20 years, is one of the fastest learners in the history of the tower and is the only sister with foretelling. Plus, Elaida was involved with the vileness from 20 years ago. If the sitters don't know this, then they are incompetent and doubly incompetent for raising someone they know nothing about with tarmon gaidon on the horizon.

 

In regards to the hall not knowing about the kidnapping attempt and the attack on the black tower, I don't believe the books mention if the hall knew or not. But again, if they didn't know they are incompetent. So the hall is either complicit or incompetent.

Some idea of what she was like, perhaps, but she has still only recently returned to the WT after a long time away - a general idea that she doesn't think the Dragon should have been given as free a hand as Siuan gave him might strike a chord with many Sitters, but that doesn't mean they would think she was willing to kidnap him. Really, they had no way to know just how far she was willing to go (especially as her problems were exacerbated by Fain). They were not in a position to know her character in that much depth - given what they knew, she might well have been a good bet. Also, Elaida's involvement in the Vileness would only be known to Reds, at most. Hardly grounds for calling them incompetent. Maybe for not getting rid of her when they realised what a bad choice she was, but by then the WT was broken, and further discord might have caused more problems than it solved. When Elaida sent the force to attack the BT, she was in a meeting with Alviarin, not the full Hall. How does it make them incompetent to not know? Presumably, Elaida would have sent them in secrecy. Certainly she took the decision alone, the Hall was not in a position to stop her making it or stop them being sent. I fail to see how that makes them incompetent? As for Rand, it was supposed to be an embassy. Presumably, that's all the Hall knew. Maybe they only discovered after they were already gone, and thus the Hall was unable to do anything about it. Again, evidence of actual incompetence seems to be lacking.

 

 

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

 

 

the greatest affront the White Tower makes to humanity is that ONLY channelers are allowed to join. This is NOT how it was in the Age of Legends, when the Hall of Servants was genuinely a force for good. All were welcome to join. Seek power, knowledge, or serve, whatever you desire.

 

I FULLY agree with the notion that the WT is (paraphrased) a despotic institution. What's worse is that Egwene herself probably refuses to acknowledge this. Their greatest failing is the rather forceful hand they take in global politics: the betrayal of Manetheren, the servitude of kings and queens (Elaida had a painting of a king kneeling to an Amyrlin), the kidnapping of the Dragon and the King of Illian... it's all rather evil IMHO, cowing the people to follow you out of fear. It's EXACTLY what the Seanchan does, just differently. In fact, the Seanchan do it better because they only REALLY force *CHANNELERS* to follow them by making them slaves - everyone is free to continue their lives and live in peace. Da'covale not withstanding, of course...

 

As sad as it is for me to admit this, I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the nations sided with the Seanchan. Their one major shortcoming is that they have embraced slavery, the most evil institution in human history. Aside from this, their society is SUPERIOR. Rand himself acknowledges this when he visits Ebou Dar in book #12 (or was it book #11?).

 

No, the only way peace can come is if the Seanchan Empire is made to see the evils of slavery. The second step would be to get them to release damane (and possibly da'covale), but this would almost certainly be a conditional release. It would ONLY happen if the channelers were relegated to the same status that they were in the Age of Legends, truly as "Servants of All". They would have to reduce their political position for the greater good, and I HIGHLY doubt this will happen.

 

It would be nothing short of a miracle.

 

Further, I think Aviendha is going to convince the chiefs and the Wise Ones to take responsibility for themselves and bring about some major change on their own, WITHOUT the Rand's explicit approval. They may very well lay down their spears and declare themselves Dai'shain Aiel again; doubtful, but it may be done! Very few will follow this, 'a remnant of a remnant'

 

-edit-

 

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't know if any of that will happen. The way people are peaceful and relatively free of crime under the Seanchan kinda reminds me of the AoL. :O

The AS in the AoL were all channelers. It's always been a requirement to join. I wouldn''t say Seanchan society is superior, so much as Seanchan bureaucracy. To weigh against that, people live in a police state. True, the Blood are subject to the laws as much as the commoners, but Big Brother is still watching you, and you still have to prostrate yourself before your superiors to a greater extent than in a Randland nation. Personally, I find the idea that channelers should be forced into servitude - as slaves or as rather euphemistic "servants of all" - to be rather repugnant. They should be able to be ordinary members of society, with the rights and responsibilites such confers, and treated as such. Slavery or enforced servitude is a rather poor choice, and a wholly unnecessary one.

 

 

The White Tower gives justification a hundred times over for the mission statement of why the Seanchan take damane or why they say it is pertinent to segregate channelers from society to safeguard the people and keep society stable. The methodology is morally questionable, the intent is certainly not.

I'd say the intent is very questionable. Not even all the AS prove there is justification for it, still less the other channeling groups. The Kin need to be segragated to safeguard people and keep society stable? The Wise Ones? The Windfinders? I find the idea that channelers are in some way a menace that need to be kept away from "normal" people to be... rather unpleasant. And furthermore, not backed up by the books. Look at the "betrayal" of Manetheren - the AS did too little, too late, but covered it up because they would prefer to be seen as apathetic than as useless, preserve their aura of mystique. While it's true that they could have done more to save Manetheren, had they acted sooner, and could have given the impression they cared, they didn't do anything to actively harm anyone. They didn't cause any harm, they only failed to prevent it. The kidnapped rulers more recently - from the country ruled by Graendal, and the country ruled by Sammael. Coincidence, perhaps, but they have not shown a willingness to arbitrarily kidnap rulers from secure and stable nations. They have failings, but these failings don't come from being channelers, they come from being a very powerful, ossified institution. Attempts to paint them balck have the problem that they aren't even that dark a shade of grey. Calling them well-meaning do-gooders is going a bit far, but doesn't miss the target completely. They are ambitious, power hungry, they look after themselves first and foremost, but they do still mean well and try to help. Their positives do outweigh their negatives.

 

The White Tower and the channeling parties need to negotiate an armistice by which they institute a system which breaks the power of the White Tower and ensures that never again will a consortium of channelers arise possessing the will and power conspire to such a degree against the common folk and nations as the White Tower had done of the centuries. In return the Seanchan will end the paranoid and security orientated practice of preemptively enslaving all channelers. Otherwise there remains very little purpose or point for the Seanchan to end the damane practice. The Seanchan need to be able to guarantee it's people safety, security and protection from the likes of institutions such as the White Tower.

The basis of any armistice should be the Seanchan ceasing their advance and dropping their claims on territory they don't currently control. The power of the WT is already broken. Paranoid anti-channeler measures are wholly unnecessary, and not particularly desirable.

 

 

They aren't wearing a collar because they are the ultimate weapon. They are wearing a collar because the Seanchan fear their power.

There is a lot of truth in this.

[RedRaider]

The biggest obstacle for peace ( or at least a ceasefire ) between the Seanchan and the rest of Randland is the issue of Damane. The Seanchan would not part with their weapon and the AS, wiseones and the seafolk will not rest easy while there is a constant threat of them getting collared, not to mention those that have already been collared.

 

I feel like the best inducement for the seanchan to stop collaring damane is to convince them that it is an obsolete "technology" and that Aludra's cannons are the weapons of the future. Certainly Tuon saw the potential of the repeating crossbow as a very big advantage and I am sure she will be quick to realize the firepower of the dragons just as Elayne and Birgette had.

 

Mat has the plans and I think he might use it to bargain with tuon in order to get them to unite with the rest of the randland armies that will be under his command. The only problem here is that Aludra hates the Seanchan and will never allow the cannons to be shared with the Seanchan. Therefore, I have this odd feeling that she will die somehow. I know it is not in any of the prophecies but I can't seem to shake this theory in my mind.

 

They aren't wearing a collar because they are the ultimate weapon. They are wearing a collar because the Seanchan fear their power. Even if they are obsolete, which they aren't, they would still be coallared until the Seanchan get over their fear of channelers, which Hawkwing himself instilled.

 

 

Do you blame Hawkwing for his intense hatred? I mean I would be just as spiteful against channelers if I were him considering all the wonderful machinations, sabotage and schemes that Aes Sedai fomented against him. As Ishamael said he barely had to manipulate Hawkwing as the fire was already there due to an incredibly borderline megalomaniac Amyrlin. All Ishamael had to ensure was that no reconciliation would take place.

 

Also not helping matters was when Luthair arrived on the new continent was that local consortiums of channelers were also manipulating, terrorizing and making everyone's life miserable by preventing a strong stable society to form.

I am not placing blame, only stating the fact that the Seanchan collar channelers because Hawkwing instilled that fear and need to control them into his society. My statement was regarding whether or not Mat's cannons would make the Seanchan consider releasing the channelers. It wouldn't. The Seanchan fear the channelers and want to either control them or destroy the ones that cant be collared. Cannons wont change that mind set. Also, a channeler is much more portable than a cannon and doesn't need to be reloaded. The cannons with grape shot for attacking hoardes are great, but a squad of collared channelers can do a lot more damage in a lot less time. But Hawkwing hating or fearing the one power is neither right or wrong. It was just his approach to dealing with a power that he didn't have. I bet he'd of made a fine White Cloak.

[gambril]

We're talking about Aes Sedai here.

Yes, and that's beginning to be a problem.

I'll ask you all to kindly keep your remarks on topic.

 

EDIT: Oh, and did you know that you don't actually need to quote everything that came before every time you make a new post (double )? Quoting only those parts of former posts you intend to refer to in yours will go a long way towards making the entire thread more legible.

 

 

Sorry I suppose, but you quote me out of context ;p. He was using the excuse that since others do it then it's ok for AS to do it.

 

Also the issue of damane refelects 100% on Aes Sedai so it is relevant to what was being said afaik - the Seanchan aren't going to stop collaring channelers because they can get cannons. They're going to stop when Aes Sedai stop their methods and attitudes and can convince the Seanchan of this. The biggest obstacle to the end of damane is Aes Sedai and the Empire's beliefs. Seanchan will never stop collaring channelers when the whole reason they collar them is still in existence today (that of manipulating rulers, undermining order etc.) The Seanchan wouldn't be collaring channelers if it wasn't for Aes Sedai.

 

It just peeves me that people are so against Seanchan and damane when Aes Sedai's actions are behind it all (ie: not understanding the full truth). Granted, Ishy instigated it all but that's all he had to. Aes Sedai's actions did the rest for him. And like Doma said, this is the real War Aes Sedai lost, that of the people. This is why Seanchan has had such an easy time of it because the people aren't going to raise arms to defend the White Tower. We even see people migrating to Seanchan controlled lands for their safety (Tinkers). This is precisely what Thom said to Mat when they were on their way to the Hell in KOD.

 

I'm pretty forum illiterate with quoting others so I just hit the reply button that qutoes whatever it's going to quote lol. After I realized that quoting was quoting everything for the past 10 post I stopped doing it....on my last post on the second page :).

[Suttree]

Why devolve a civil debate by using belittling terms towards the Aes Sedai?

 

I didnt have to mate...those terms were quotes pulled from earlier posters on your side of the debate.

 

 

The White Tower gives justification a hundred times over for the mission statement of why the Seanchan take damane or why they say it is pertinent to segregate channelers from society to safeguard the people and keep society stable.

 

The funny thing is you keep using terms like "segregate" and you don't even see how you've been dancing around the issue. Never once have you said slavery or forcing/training women through torture to be less than human. We know your thoughts on Aes Sedai but since you say "channeleres" above, please inform us why it would be pertinent to segregate Wise Ones or Windfinders to safegaurd people or keep society stable? For the last time the Aes Sedai have failed at times and do have faults, they have had bad rulers who have made mistakes as do all institutions of power. But to say the WT has justified a mission statement of slavery and forced servitude is fairly distasteful to say the least.

[Ananta]

 

 

 

Anyhow, on a serious note, I think there's nothing to justify the way Seanchan treat channelers. So, Rembrant, you think it would be justified to collar people like Nynaeve, who want nothing more than heal people and make the world a better place, just because Aes Sedai like Elaida exist?

[gambril]

 

 

 

Anyhow, on a serious note, I think there's nothing to justify the way Seanchan treat channelers. So, Rembrant, you think it would be justified to collar people like Nynaeve, who want nothing more than heal people and make the world a better place, just because Aes Sedai like Elaida exist?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody in their right minds is defending the method in which Seanchan accomplish their goal. What is being defended are the reasons for why they do it.

[Ananta]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody in their right minds is defending the method in which Seanchan accomplish their goal. What is being defended are the reasons for why they do it.

 

Ah, I see. I didn't read all those walls of texts, just some. And to me it seemed like Rembrant was defending the things Seanchan did.

 

And I don't think the reasons for what they are doing are valid either. It's like saying we should send all gypsies to jail right from birth, because a lot of them end up steal stuff (at least here in Finland they are massive problem at some parts of the country).

[Alternate34]

Huge walls of texts with surprisingly little content, mainly accusing Aes Sedai of being the primary force of evil and political chaos.

 

I don't see how everything the Aes Sedai are accused of doesn't get levelled at every other nation on the planet. The Aes Sedai are just better at it. You may claim that it is because of their skill in the One Power. That claim is somewhat empty because they can't use it in a military way. More likely, it is their organized form of education and resources. Their education provides their kind with immense confidence, which itself is a powerful resource.

 

I agree that the Aes Sedai are arrogant and somewhat corrupted, but every society on the planet is. The Seanchan feel it necessary to enslave channelers where every other society shows it can exist and thrive with unrestrainged channelers. The Aiel believe themselves to be purely weapons and constantly fight amongst one another in somewhat pointless battles. The Windfinders, well, we don't know too much about them. They like the ocean. Should I go on?

 

I see no reason to target the Aes Sedai above all others. Randland is pretty messed up everywhere.

 

Lastly, on topic, I don't think a trade would occur. There is no way to enforce it and the Seanchan would only need to capture one city with Dragons to make the trade worthless to them. That means either Randland concentrates the Dragons in one easily defensible area, limiting their power, or they try to eradicate the Seanchan before they can get their hands on the tech. No, I think the continent is destined to get its war on after it gets its war on.

[gambril]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody in their right minds is defending the method in which Seanchan accomplish their goal. What is being defended are the reasons for why they do it.

 

Ah, I see. I didn't read all those walls of texts, just some. And to me it seemed like Rembrant was defending the things Seanchan did.

 

And I don't think the reasons for what they are doing are valid either. It's like saying we should send all gypsies to jail right from birth, because a lot of them end up steal stuff (at least here in Finland they are massive problem at some parts of the country).

 

 

I can agree with this. It's also like saying all Muslims are terrorist and all Muslims should be brought to justice or what have you, when of course it isn't true. It only applies to a small percentage.

 

It's also a lot lot harder to only target the specific ones who are causing the problem while excluding them as a whole - as evidenced by our 10+ year war on terror that will last for generations to come most likely

[Suttree]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody in their right minds is defending the method in which Seanchan accomplish their goal. What is being defended are the reasons for why they do it.

 

Reasoning that leads to collaring someone like Nynaeve because people much worse(who were not AS mind) than Elaida used to exist thousands of years ago. Or is it the reasoning that they ALL need to be collared because there is the potential for misuse of power? The reasoning that says all channelers are abominations, little more than animals that need to be trained like a dog? No mate, as others said AS arent even that dark of a shade of grey much less so kin, windfinders or wise ones. The reasons why the Seanchan do it are just as wrong as the method.

[gambril]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody in their right minds is defending the method in which Seanchan accomplish their goal. What is being defended are the reasons for why they do it.

 

Reasoning that leads to collaring someone like Nynaeve because people much worse than Elaida(who were not AS mind) used to exist thousands of years ago. Or is it the reasoning that they ALL need to be collared because there is the potential for misuse of power? No mate, as Mr Ares said AS arent even that dark of a shade of grey much less so kin, windfinders or wise ones. The reasons why the Seanchan do it are just as wrong as the method.

 

 

It's sad that you don't understand the reasoning in which Seanchan go about their business of damane (bring on the arguements that it's me that's not understanding. And perhaps I don't fully understand it, I can admit that, but not to understand the basics of it is sad). The reason it's sad is because you don't understand the story you're reading. The reasoning in why they go about their business has been explained ad nauseum to you (in which all you do is ask questions and don't respond to points made...heh) so I'm done responding to your post, for better or ill.

[csarmi]

I really don't mean to be picky, but there are several posters here whos should learn how to quote properly...

[Suttree]

It's sad that you don't understand the reasoning in which Seanchan go about their business of damane (bring on the arguements that it's me that's not understanding. And perhaps I don't fully understand it, I can admit that, but not to understand the basics of it is sad). The reason it's sad is because you don't understand the story you're reading. The reasoning in why they go about their business has been explained ad nauseum to you (in which all you do is ask questions and don't respond to points made...heh) so I'm done responding to your post, for better or ill.

 

Actually myslef along with others such as Mr Ares have proven the fault in Seanchan reasoning and countered your posts with facts from the story. Along the way I have even conceded a few points. To say I don't understand the story? Well I was a lit major at a UC school and by my handle it should be obvious my reading extends beyond fantasy. Trust me the WoT and its thematic patterning isn't exactly a challenge to understand.

 

One last thought and I'm glad you brought this up.

 

I can agree with this. It's also like saying all Muslims are terrorist and all Muslims should be brought to justice or what have you, when of course it isn't true. It only applies to a small percentage.

 

It's also a lot lot harder to only target the specific ones who are causing the problem while excluding them as a whole - as evidenced by our 10+ year war on terror that will last for generations to come most likely

 

Apply Seanchan reasoning to this real world example and try and defend what the results would be.

[Ananta]

 

 

Apply Seanchan reasoning to this real world example and try and defend what the results would be.

 

I don't think he's defending, or agreeing with, the Seanchan for what they are doing, but he understands the reason WHY they do it.

 

They do it out of fear, out of fear for all the possible ways a channeler could misuse his/her power. That's the part he understands. He doesn't agree with it, nor defend it, but he understands it.

 

 

 

Or at least that's how I see it D:

[Suttree]

 

 

Apply Seanchan reasoning to this real world example and try and defend what the results would be.

 

I don't think he's defending, or agreeing with, the Seanchan for what they are doing, but he understands the reason WHY they do it.

 

They do it out of fear, out of fear for all the possible ways a channeler could misuse his/her power. That's the part he understands. He doesn't agree with it, nor defend it, but he understands it.

 

 

 

Or at least that's how I see it D:

 

Apologies if I misunderstood but this

 

Oh yes their actions are sinister, sinister indeed. Their goals are to bring everyone that doesn't wear the Aes Sedai tag to heel, how hard is that to understand?

 

& this

 

Aes Sedai are a notch below slavery in my opinion.

 

& this

 

 

But as far as their zeal to put all Aes Sedai on leashes I agree with.

 

Bring Aes Sedai to heel, teach those hags some humility

 

along with

 

What is being defended are the reasons for why they do it.

 

leads me to believe otherwise.

[Ananta]

Apply Seanchan reasoning to this real world example and try and defend what the results would be.

 

I don't think he's defending, or agreeing with, the Seanchan for what they are doing, but he understands the reason WHY they do it.

 

They do it out of fear, out of fear for all the possible ways a channeler could misuse his/her power. That's the part he understands. He doesn't agree with it, nor defend it, but he understands it.

 

 

 

Or at least that's how I see it D:

 

Apologies if I misunderstood but this

 

Oh yes their actions are sinister, sinister indeed. Their goals are to bring everyone that doesn't wear the Aes Sedai tag to heel, how hard is that to understand?

 

& this

 

Aes Sedai are a notch below slavery in my opinion.

 

& this

 

But as far as their zeal to put all Aes Sedai on leashes I agree with.

 

Bring Aes Sedai to heel, teach those hags some humility

 

along with

 

What is being defended are the reasons for why they do it.

 

leads me to believe otherwise.

 

"But as far as their zeal to put all Aes Sedai on leashes I agree with.

 

Bring Aes Sedai to heel, teach those hags some humility "

 

That's the only one of those quotes that I actually see as him thinking that Aes Sedai should be leashed... The others are more like pointing out the reasons why Seanchan think that they are doing the right thing when treating Channelers like animals.

 

Anyhow, I'm not gambril so I don't know the real reasons for what he said and what he really thinks, so it's not really my place to comment.

[gambril]

Apply Seanchan reasoning to this real world example and try and defend what the results would be.

 

I don't think he's defending, or agreeing with, the Seanchan for what they are doing, but he understands the reason WHY they do it.

 

They do it out of fear, out of fear for all the possible ways a channeler could misuse his/her power. That's the part he understands. He doesn't agree with it, nor defend it, but he understands it.

 

 

 

Or at least that's how I see it D:

 

Apologies if I misunderstood but this

 

Oh yes their actions are sinister, sinister indeed. Their goals are to bring everyone that doesn't wear the Aes Sedai tag to heel, how hard is that to understand?

 

& this

 

Aes Sedai are a notch below slavery in my opinion.

 

& this

 

But as far as their zeal to put all Aes Sedai on leashes I agree with.

 

Bring Aes Sedai to heel, teach those hags some humility

 

along with

 

What is being defended are the reasons for why they do it.

 

leads me to believe otherwise.

 

"But as far as their zeal to put all Aes Sedai on leashes I agree with.

 

Bring Aes Sedai to heel, teach those hags some humility "

 

That's the only one of those quotes that I actually see as him thinking that Aes Sedai should be leashed... The others are more like pointing out the reasons why Seanchan think that they are doing the right thing when treating Channelers like animals.

 

Anyhow, I'm not gambril so I don't know the real reasons for what he said and what he really thinks, so it's not really my place to comment.

 

 

Off topic, but he's using those quotes of mine out of context. When I said put leashes on those Aes Sedai for example. Read the rest of that paragraph when I said that ;p.

[moratcorlm]

Some idea of what she was like, perhaps, but she has still only recently returned to the WT after a long time away - a general idea that she doesn't think the Dragon should have been given as free a hand as Siuan gave him might strike a chord with many Sitters, but that doesn't mean they would think she was willing to kidnap him. Really, they had no way to know just how far she was willing to go (especially as her problems were exacerbated by Fain). They were not in a position to know her character in that much depth - given what they knew, she might well have been a good bet. Also, Elaida's involvement in the Vileness would only be known to Reds, at most. Hardly grounds for calling them incompetent. Maybe for not getting rid of her when they realised what a bad choice she was, but by then the WT was broken, and further discord might have caused more problems than it solved. When Elaida sent the force to attack the BT, she was in a meeting with Alviarin, not the full Hall. How does it make them incompetent to not know? Presumably, Elaida would have sent them in secrecy. Certainly she took the decision alone, the Hall was not in a position to stop her making it or stop them being sent. I fail to see how that makes them incompetent?

It would be rather remarkable that the Ajahs did not notice that 12% of the loyal Tower was being sent along with an embassy that publicly was announced as six, or comprehend the purpose of that. Or, after that, that nearly 20% of the remaining loyal Tower disappeared simultaneously. And Elaida may even have managed to keep the purpose of the Black Tower mission secret for a time, but it's impossible to believe the same of her embassy when she was planning parade routes for Rand's display as a captive.

Look at the "betrayal" of Manetheren - the AS did too little, too late, but covered it up because they would prefer to be seen as apathetic than as useless, preserve their aura of mystique. While it's true that they could have done more to save Manetheren, had they acted sooner, and could have given the impression they cared, they didn't do anything to actively harm anyone. They didn't cause any harm, they only failed to prevent it.

That was Malkier. We know little about the betrayal of Manetheren except that the Amyrlin Seat was jealous of the Queen of Manetheren and decided to withhold aid when the Trollocs attacked.

 

Seems that both sides find it impossible to discuss either the Seanchan dispassionately, or avoid bickering about the Aes Sedai.

[Mr Ares]

Seanchan will never stop collaring channelers when the whole reason they collar them is still in existence today (that of manipulating rulers, undermining order etc.) The Seanchan wouldn't be collaring channelers if it wasn't for Aes Sedai.

 

It just peeves me that people are so against Seanchan and damane when Aes Sedai's actions are behind it all (ie: not understanding the full truth).

But it's not AS action that is behind it all, it is Seanchan action behind it all. They took exception to the Armies of the Night, and acted to stop them, but the WT AS are a very different proposition. The Seanchan AS might have been bad enough to justify it, but they extend that not only to another group of AS with no connection to the Seanchan lot, but to all channelers. People who have never done anything wrong.

 

Anyhow, on a serious note, I think there's nothing to justify the way Seanchan treat channelers. So, Rembrant, you think it would be justified to collar people like Nynaeve, who want nothing more than heal people and make the world a better place, just because Aes Sedai like Elaida exist?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody in their right minds is defending the method in which Seanchan accomplish their goal. What is being defended are the reasons for why they do it.

And some of us feel those reasons are completely wrong. There might be some AS whose behaviour is out of line, but not most of them, that we have seen. How much harm have we seen the WT AS cause? Not much. Still less when we take other channeling groups into account. Their reason is to punish all for the actions of a few, without stopping to check the facts. While it might not be easy to target those who are the problem, surely it is worth the effort?

 

 

Some idea of what she was like, perhaps, but she has still only recently returned to the WT after a long time away - a general idea that she doesn't think the Dragon should have been given as free a hand as Siuan gave him might strike a chord with many Sitters, but that doesn't mean they would think she was willing to kidnap him. Really, they had no way to know just how far she was willing to go (especially as her problems were exacerbated by Fain). They were not in a position to know her character in that much depth - given what they knew, she might well have been a good bet. Also, Elaida's involvement in the Vileness would only be known to Reds, at most. Hardly grounds for calling them incompetent. Maybe for not getting rid of her when they realised what a bad choice she was, but by then the WT was broken, and further discord might have caused more problems than it solved. When Elaida sent the force to attack the BT, she was in a meeting with Alviarin, not the full Hall. How does it make them incompetent to not know? Presumably, Elaida would have sent them in secrecy. Certainly she took the decision alone, the Hall was not in a position to stop her making it or stop them being sent. I fail to see how that makes them incompetent?

It would be rather remarkable that the Ajahs did not notice that 12% of the loyal Tower was being sent along with an embassy that publicly was announced as six, or comprehend the purpose of that. Or, after that, that nearly 20% of the remaining loyal Tower disappeared simultaneously. And Elaida may even have managed to keep the purpose of the Black Tower mission secret for a time, but it's impossible to believe the same of her embassy when she was planning parade routes for Rand's display as a captive.

Once the embassy has departed, what can they do? They could send messengers, but the Amyrlin sent them and the Amyrlin outranks the Hall, so they can't be recalled. It's a fait accompli. Really, all they could do is warn Rand - a betrayal of the WT. They would have to be very sure of themselves to take that option. With the force sent to the BT, it is understandable that even if they did know, they would approve - these are male channelers, the threat AS have protected the world from for 3,000 years. Of course, the specifics of Elaida's orders (on the spot gentling followed by executions) would probably be something they would not approve of, but they weren't to know of that. And, again, once the force has departed, there is very little they can do. It is easier to ask forgiveness than permission, and Elaida will only need forgiveness if she fails, and needn't ask permission at all. She is Amyrlin and feels she can do as she wishes. If the Hall disagreed, they could always hold back from censuring Elaida until after failure had been made clear - after all, if she has succeeded, they have wiped out the BT, and have got the Dragon on a leash. If she fails, then they can call her to acount. If they were involved in the decision, if the mission went with their blessing, then they can also share in the blame for its failure. Safer to step back - the decision was taken without them, they weren't in a good position to stop it, and they needn't make the effort. These instances don't make the Hall malicious or incompetent.

 

Look at the "betrayal" of Manetheren - the AS did too little, too late, but covered it up because they would prefer to be seen as apathetic than as useless, preserve their aura of mystique. While it's true that they could have done more to save Manetheren, had they acted sooner, and could have given the impression they cared, they didn't do anything to actively harm anyone. They didn't cause any harm, they only failed to prevent it.

That was Malkier. We know little about the betrayal of Manetheren except that the Amyrlin Seat was jealous of the Queen of Manetheren and decided to withhold aid when the Trollocs attacked.

Malkier, Manetheren, no matter, it still supports my point - they failed to give aid, they didn't actively cause harm. They failed to help Manetheren out of jealousy, they covered up their abortive attempts to help Malkier for PR reasons. It amounts to the same thing - the AS might be pretty useless, but in no way are the Seanchan justified in their attempts to oppress them, or any other channeling group. People also bring up Hawkwing - oh dear, they tried to manipulate him. That would paint them as the bad guys, but for the fact that he just tried to conquer the world. So he can extend his influence, but they can't? He gets a pass because he was better at it? The WT might not have been squeaky clean in the whole affair, but it's difficult to condemn them for doing the same thing as Hawkwing without giving the impression of a double standard.