Aludra's cannons and the Seanchan

[gambril]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

 

 

The Aes Sedai only have complete control over Tar Valon. No present day Aes Sedai has used channeling to "oppress those w/o the ability". Who have they attempted to overthrow with the power? Again a huge difference between political manipulation and overt use of the one power with force. If they had been attempting to conquer and unify Randland under the Amrylin's rule you might have an argument. You can not compare political maneuvering to forced slavery.

 

It has nothing to do withusing the Power. If I have a loaded gun (channeling) pointed at your face threatening you, whether directly or indirectly and telling you to either come with me (kidnappping) or telling you what you will do (for the benefit of the White Tower mind, not for the benefit of that country mind you. If it does happen to benefit said country/ruler...it's an after thought and not the true intent of an Aes Sedai) then it's the same thing.

 

All the rulers of Randland (minus Murandy) gathering at the Fields of Merrilor due to a letter by the Amyrlin doesn't signify the White Tower's iron grip on Randland, then I don't know what will. Or the comment that even the LCC of the Whitecloaks would come to a summon by the Amrylin...

If you don't know after reading 13 books that rulers of Randland don't act without considering what Aes Sedai will think or do because of said acts, then I don't know why I even try.

 

Quick questions, when you say "for benefit of the WT" what do you think that means? In your mind what is the AS goal? Do you think they believe they are acting for the common good?

 

With kidnapping you are talking about something that non channelers have been know to do in the series as well, it is not unique to Elaida. In terms of the gathering at FoM... well it concerns the last battle and fate of the world, I would hope said rulers would be in attendance. You still have not explained how forced slavery stands on the same moral ground as political maneuvering from a position of strength.

 

Benefit of the White Tower means exactly what it says. The benefit of the White Tower is subject to their current whims and those whims don't factor in said contries needs first. You can argue that they do these things to prepare for the Last Battle and to stand against the shadow but I would say:

 

Kidnapping Mattin Stepannoes was for and to prepare for the Last Battle? Or was it because it served the White Towers 'political' machinations?

 

Same thing with the ruler of that country of Iturlade's.

 

Kidnapping the Dragon Reborn, torturing him daily and locking him in a box was for the benefit of the world? Ok...

 

I would hope you can agree that the current world wouldn't put up with these actions, at all. I would go so far as to say that our world would form a coalition and bring these people to heel and put them on trial. Aes Sedai won't go on trial for any of their crimes. The most we can hope for is some humility and they can work with and serve the world instead of tryin to manipulate it...

 

I don't know how slavery and the Seanchan has anything to do with what the White Tower does. Slavery and a'dam are worse for different reasons, but Aes Sedai are a notch below slavery in my opinion.

[gambril]

Iron grip is really stretching it. Sure, the Tower was the most influential political entity in Randland before the Dragon Reborn came, but they weren't in total control by any means. In Amadicia they were killed on sight and they could do nothing to change the laws there. In Tear channelling was outlawed and again the Aes Sedai couldn't do anything to change that. The wars between Tarabon and Arad Doman continue to happen almost every year, despite attempts of the Tower to ensure a long term peace. In Cairhien, we were told in TGH that the king would've kept the Horn of Valere for himself even against Verin and the Tower's wishes to take it.

 

If they were strong enough to control everything directly, they wouldn't have needed to manipulate the monarchs and nobles, they would've ordered them directly all the time.

 

 

Oh sure they might be killed on sight in Amadicia, but that doesn't mean they don't have any influence. As I said before, the Whitecloak LCC would come to a summons by the Amrylin and their headquarters is in Amadicia.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

 

As does every noble in Randland but that's a different arguement.

 

The Aes Sedai only have complete control over Tar Valon. No present day Aes Sedai has used channeling to "oppress those w/o the ability". Who have they attempted to overthrow with the power? Again a huge difference between political manipulation and overt use of the one power with force. If they had been attempting to conquer and unify Randland under the Amrylin's rule you might have an argument. You can not compare political maneuvering to forced slavery.

 

 

Anyone can become a noble as it is a station and not everyone can become a channeler, hence Aes Sedai. It's a faux pas comparison.

 

Right. Let us completely forget how Bonwhin threw the entire continent into turmoil by attempting to manipulate Artur Hawkwing to become her lackey. This was with the oaths. I dread to think of a world where women such as Elaida, Alanna and co. can run around without any oaths preventing them from monopolozing the OP as a weapon to strengthen their position. I am quite sure you are versed enough in the amount of trouble these women caused with the oaths.

 

The oaths are what make the Aes Sedai the servants, their original role, which got somewhat corrupted over the span of time. If they plan on removing them they should retire the name Aes Sedai and rename their order to something more suitable.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Iron grip is really stretching it. Sure, the Tower was the most influential political entity in Randland before the Dragon Reborn came, but they weren't in total control by any means. In Amadicia they were killed on sight and they could do nothing to change the laws there. In Tear channelling was outlawed and again the Aes Sedai couldn't do anything to change that. The wars between Tarabon and Arad Doman continue to happen almost every year, despite attempts of the Tower to ensure a long term peace. In Cairhien, we were told in TGH that the king would've kept the Horn of Valere for himself even against Verin and the Tower's wishes to take it.

 

If they were strong enough to control everything directly, they wouldn't have needed to manipulate the monarchs and nobles, they would've ordered them directly all the time.

 

 

How do they exert the control? Through manipulation and downright despicable actions. Lord only knows how much is sealed by the flame. Alone in the past years the Tower is directly implicated in kidnapping a King, kidnapping/torturing an Emperor, instigating rebellion in Tear. Prior to that we know the Aes Sedai gambled to prop up a puppet on the Cairhienen throne.

 

Then the Seanchan are the evil ones for claiming that channelers always seek to undermine authority, bring turmoil, seed anarchy and demand self-entitlement? I honestly don't see it that black and white. Sorry.

 

Honestly the oaths are probably the only thing preventing the Aes Sedai from suffering a similar fate to the original channeling groups found on the Seanchan continent when Luthair arrived. Remove the oaths and you merely vindicate the prevailing attitude that has already gained foot in Amadicia and Tear. The Aes Sedai seal their own doom in much the way the Knights Templars of old did. Power and diplomacy are funny like that, it's a careful balance act.

[Suttree]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

 

 

The Aes Sedai only have complete control over Tar Valon. No present day Aes Sedai has used channeling to "oppress those w/o the ability". Who have they attempted to overthrow with the power? Again a huge difference between political manipulation and overt use of the one power with force. If they had been attempting to conquer and unify Randland under the Amrylin's rule you might have an argument. You can not compare political maneuvering to forced slavery.

 

It has nothing to do withusing the Power. If I have a loaded gun (channeling) pointed at your face threatening you, whether directly or indirectly and telling you to either come with me (kidnappping) or telling you what you will do (for the benefit of the White Tower mind, not for the benefit of that country mind you. If it does happen to benefit said country/ruler...it's an after thought and not the true intent of an Aes Sedai) then it's the same thing.

 

All the rulers of Randland (minus Murandy) gathering at the Fields of Merrilor due to a letter by the Amyrlin doesn't signify the White Tower's iron grip on Randland, then I don't know what will. Or the comment that even the LCC of the Whitecloaks would come to a summon by the Amrylin...

If you don't know after reading 13 books that rulers of Randland don't act without considering what Aes Sedai will think or do because of said acts, then I don't know why I even try.

 

Quick questions, when you say "for benefit of the WT" what do you think that means? In your mind what is the AS goal? Do you think they believe they are acting for the common good?

 

With kidnapping you are talking about something that non channelers have been know to do in the series as well, it is not unique to Elaida. In terms of the gathering at FoM... well it concerns the last battle and fate of the world, I would hope said rulers would be in attendance. You still have not explained how forced slavery stands on the same moral ground as political maneuvering from a position of strength.

 

Benefit of the White Tower means exactly what it says. The benefit of the White Tower is subject to their current whims and those whims don't factor in said contries needs first. You can argue that they do these things to prepare for the Last Battle and to stand against the shadow but I would say:

 

Kidnapping Mattin Stepannoes was for and to prepare for the Last Battle? Or was it because it served the White Towers 'political' machinations?

 

Same thing with the ruler of that country of Iturlade's.

 

Kidnapping the Dragon Reborn, torturing him daily and locking him in a box was for the benefit of the world? Ok...

 

I would hope you can agree that the current world wouldn't put up with these actions, at all. I would go so far as to say that our world would form a coalition and bring these people to heel and put them on trial. Aes Sedai won't go on trial for any of their crimes. The most we can hope for is some humility and they can work with and serve the world instead of tryin to manipulate it...

 

I don't know how slavery and the Seanchan has anything to do with what the White Tower does. Slavery and a'dam are worse for different reasons, but Aes Sedai are a notch below slavery in my opinion.

 

The examples you gave were either Elaida(post Padan Fain corruption) or the Black Ajah. They don't really represent the tower as a whole.

 

Also you didn't answer my question. To your mind what does "benefit of the WT" mean? What do you believe there goals to be? Since you use the term "political machinations" do you believe they have sinister intentions?

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

 

 

The Aes Sedai only have complete control over Tar Valon. No present day Aes Sedai has used channeling to "oppress those w/o the ability". Who have they attempted to overthrow with the power? Again a huge difference between political manipulation and overt use of the one power with force. If they had been attempting to conquer and unify Randland under the Amrylin's rule you might have an argument. You can not compare political maneuvering to forced slavery.

 

It has nothing to do withusing the Power. If I have a loaded gun (channeling) pointed at your face threatening you, whether directly or indirectly and telling you to either come with me (kidnappping) or telling you what you will do (for the benefit of the White Tower mind, not for the benefit of that country mind you. If it does happen to benefit said country/ruler...it's an after thought and not the true intent of an Aes Sedai) then it's the same thing.

 

All the rulers of Randland (minus Murandy) gathering at the Fields of Merrilor due to a letter by the Amyrlin doesn't signify the White Tower's iron grip on Randland, then I don't know what will. Or the comment that even the LCC of the Whitecloaks would come to a summon by the Amrylin...

If you don't know after reading 13 books that rulers of Randland don't act without considering what Aes Sedai will think or do because of said acts, then I don't know why I even try.

 

Quick questions, when you say "for benefit of the WT" what do you think that means? In your mind what is the AS goal? Do you think they believe they are acting for the common good?

 

With kidnapping you are talking about something that non channelers have been know to do in the series as well, it is not unique to Elaida. In terms of the gathering at FoM... well it concerns the last battle and fate of the world, I would hope said rulers would be in attendance. You still have not explained how forced slavery stands on the same moral ground as political maneuvering from a position of strength.

 

Benefit of the White Tower means exactly what it says. The benefit of the White Tower is subject to their current whims and those whims don't factor in said contries needs first. You can argue that they do these things to prepare for the Last Battle and to stand against the shadow but I would say:

 

Kidnapping Mattin Stepannoes was for and to prepare for the Last Battle? Or was it because it served the White Towers 'political' machinations?

 

Same thing with the ruler of that country of Iturlade's.

 

Kidnapping the Dragon Reborn, torturing him daily and locking him in a box was for the benefit of the world? Ok...

 

I would hope you can agree that the current world wouldn't put up with these actions, at all. I would go so far as to say that our world would form a coalition and bring these people to heel and put them on trial. Aes Sedai won't go on trial for any of their crimes. The most we can hope for is some humility and they can work with and serve the world instead of tryin to manipulate it...

 

I don't know how slavery and the Seanchan has anything to do with what the White Tower does. Slavery and a'dam are worse for different reasons, but Aes Sedai are a notch below slavery in my opinion.

 

The examples you gave were either Elaida(post Padan Fain corruption) or the Black Ajah. They don't really represent the tower as a whole.

 

Also you didn't answer my question. To your mind what does "benefit of the WT" mean? What do you believe there goals to be? Since you use the term "political machinations" do you believe they have sinister intentions?

 

 

The legal head and former Amyrlin of the tower does not represent the White Tower? You will have to explain that one to me.

[gambril]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

 

 

The Aes Sedai only have complete control over Tar Valon. No present day Aes Sedai has used channeling to "oppress those w/o the ability". Who have they attempted to overthrow with the power? Again a huge difference between political manipulation and overt use of the one power with force. If they had been attempting to conquer and unify Randland under the Amrylin's rule you might have an argument. You can not compare political maneuvering to forced slavery.

 

It has nothing to do withusing the Power. If I have a loaded gun (channeling) pointed at your face threatening you, whether directly or indirectly and telling you to either come with me (kidnappping) or telling you what you will do (for the benefit of the White Tower mind, not for the benefit of that country mind you. If it does happen to benefit said country/ruler...it's an after thought and not the true intent of an Aes Sedai) then it's the same thing.

 

All the rulers of Randland (minus Murandy) gathering at the Fields of Merrilor due to a letter by the Amyrlin doesn't signify the White Tower's iron grip on Randland, then I don't know what will. Or the comment that even the LCC of the Whitecloaks would come to a summon by the Amrylin...

If you don't know after reading 13 books that rulers of Randland don't act without considering what Aes Sedai will think or do because of said acts, then I don't know why I even try.

 

Quick questions, when you say "for benefit of the WT" what do you think that means? In your mind what is the AS goal? Do you think they believe they are acting for the common good?

 

With kidnapping you are talking about something that non channelers have been know to do in the series as well, it is not unique to Elaida. In terms of the gathering at FoM... well it concerns the last battle and fate of the world, I would hope said rulers would be in attendance. You still have not explained how forced slavery stands on the same moral ground as political maneuvering from a position of strength.

 

Benefit of the White Tower means exactly what it says. The benefit of the White Tower is subject to their current whims and those whims don't factor in said contries needs first. You can argue that they do these things to prepare for the Last Battle and to stand against the shadow but I would say:

 

Kidnapping Mattin Stepannoes was for and to prepare for the Last Battle? Or was it because it served the White Towers 'political' machinations?

 

Same thing with the ruler of that country of Iturlade's.

 

Kidnapping the Dragon Reborn, torturing him daily and locking him in a box was for the benefit of the world? Ok...

 

I would hope you can agree that the current world wouldn't put up with these actions, at all. I would go so far as to say that our world would form a coalition and bring these people to heel and put them on trial. Aes Sedai won't go on trial for any of their crimes. The most we can hope for is some humility and they can work with and serve the world instead of tryin to manipulate it...

 

I don't know how slavery and the Seanchan has anything to do with what the White Tower does. Slavery and a'dam are worse for different reasons, but Aes Sedai are a notch below slavery in my opinion.

 

The examples you gave were either Elaida(post Padan Fain corruption) or the Black Ajah. They don't really represent the tower as a whole.

 

Also you didn't answer my question. To your mind what does "benefit of the WT" mean? What do you believe there goals to be? Since you use the term "political machinations" do you believe they have sinister intentions?

 

The examples I gave are of the White Tower. Elaida was their leader. When the Sitters and other Aes Sedai found out about Elaida's actions....they did nothing ;p. [Removed]

Oh yes their actions are sinister, sinister indeed. Their goals are to bring everyone that doesn't wear the Aes Sedai tag to heel, how hard is that to understand?

 

You think that because they claim they serve the world, then they do when all their actions throughout the series (minus a select few, who were 'outlaws' in the Tower proper...) indicate otherwise.

 

I answered your questions twice now so return the favor and answer me this:

 

If I go and kidnap the ruler of a country, can I say in my defense that it was for their own benefit? To go even further, can I say that I'm not going to explain the details of why I kidnapped that ruler because it's the busniess of the White Tower and the business of the White Tower isn't to be known to those outside of it?

 

This is what you're defending as far as I can see it. They think their intentions are serving the Light and combating the Shadow but that doesn't make it true. To make it true, their actions would have to reflect this and by my estimations, they don't.

[Suttree]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

 

 

The Aes Sedai only have complete control over Tar Valon. No present day Aes Sedai has used channeling to "oppress those w/o the ability". Who have they attempted to overthrow with the power? Again a huge difference between political manipulation and overt use of the one power with force. If they had been attempting to conquer and unify Randland under the Amrylin's rule you might have an argument. You can not compare political maneuvering to forced slavery.

 

It has nothing to do withusing the Power. If I have a loaded gun (channeling) pointed at your face threatening you, whether directly or indirectly and telling you to either come with me (kidnappping) or telling you what you will do (for the benefit of the White Tower mind, not for the benefit of that country mind you. If it does happen to benefit said country/ruler...it's an after thought and not the true intent of an Aes Sedai) then it's the same thing.

 

All the rulers of Randland (minus Murandy) gathering at the Fields of Merrilor due to a letter by the Amyrlin doesn't signify the White Tower's iron grip on Randland, then I don't know what will. Or the comment that even the LCC of the Whitecloaks would come to a summon by the Amrylin...

If you don't know after reading 13 books that rulers of Randland don't act without considering what Aes Sedai will think or do because of said acts, then I don't know why I even try.

 

Quick questions, when you say "for benefit of the WT" what do you think that means? In your mind what is the AS goal? Do you think they believe they are acting for the common good?

 

With kidnapping you are talking about something that non channelers have been know to do in the series as well, it is not unique to Elaida. In terms of the gathering at FoM... well it concerns the last battle and fate of the world, I would hope said rulers would be in attendance. You still have not explained how forced slavery stands on the same moral ground as political maneuvering from a position of strength.

 

Benefit of the White Tower means exactly what it says. The benefit of the White Tower is subject to their current whims and those whims don't factor in said contries needs first. You can argue that they do these things to prepare for the Last Battle and to stand against the shadow but I would say:

 

Kidnapping Mattin Stepannoes was for and to prepare for the Last Battle? Or was it because it served the White Towers 'political' machinations?

 

Same thing with the ruler of that country of Iturlade's.

 

Kidnapping the Dragon Reborn, torturing him daily and locking him in a box was for the benefit of the world? Ok...

 

I would hope you can agree that the current world wouldn't put up with these actions, at all. I would go so far as to say that our world would form a coalition and bring these people to heel and put them on trial. Aes Sedai won't go on trial for any of their crimes. The most we can hope for is some humility and they can work with and serve the world instead of tryin to manipulate it...

 

I don't know how slavery and the Seanchan has anything to do with what the White Tower does. Slavery and a'dam are worse for different reasons, but Aes Sedai are a notch below slavery in my opinion.

 

The examples you gave were either Elaida(post Padan Fain corruption) or the Black Ajah. They don't really represent the tower as a whole.

 

Also you didn't answer my question. To your mind what does "benefit of the WT" mean? What do you believe there goals to be? Since you use the term "political machinations" do you believe they have sinister intentions?

 

 

The legal head and former Amyrlin of the tower does not represent the White Tower? You will have to explain that one to me.

 

 

Independent actions ordered by the Amyrlin, orders that do not go before the Hall for a vote can not be said to represent the tower as a whole. Why do you think Elaida was so scared other AS would find out she ordered Rand kidnapped?

[moratcorlm]

She wasn't. She was scared they'd find out that she failed.

[Kvothe_the_bloodless]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

 

 

The Aes Sedai only have complete control over Tar Valon. No present day Aes Sedai has used channeling to "oppress those w/o the ability". Who have they attempted to overthrow with the power? Again a huge difference between political manipulation and overt use of the one power with force. If they had been attempting to conquer and unify Randland under the Amrylin's rule you might have an argument. You can not compare political maneuvering to forced slavery.

 

It has nothing to do withusing the Power. If I have a loaded gun (channeling) pointed at your face threatening you, whether directly or indirectly and telling you to either come with me (kidnappping) or telling you what you will do (for the benefit of the White Tower mind, not for the benefit of that country mind you. If it does happen to benefit said country/ruler...it's an after thought and not the true intent of an Aes Sedai) then it's the same thing.

 

All the rulers of Randland (minus Murandy) gathering at the Fields of Merrilor due to a letter by the Amyrlin doesn't signify the White Tower's iron grip on Randland, then I don't know what will. Or the comment that even the LCC of the Whitecloaks would come to a summon by the Amrylin...

If you don't know after reading 13 books that rulers of Randland don't act without considering what Aes Sedai will think or do because of said acts, then I don't know why I even try.

 

Quick questions, when you say "for benefit of the WT" what do you think that means? In your mind what is the AS goal? Do you think they believe they are acting for the common good?

 

With kidnapping you are talking about something that non channelers have been know to do in the series as well, it is not unique to Elaida. In terms of the gathering at FoM... well it concerns the last battle and fate of the world, I would hope said rulers would be in attendance. You still have not explained how forced slavery stands on the same moral ground as political maneuvering from a position of strength.

 

Benefit of the White Tower means exactly what it says. The benefit of the White Tower is subject to their current whims and those whims don't factor in said contries needs first. You can argue that they do these things to prepare for the Last Battle and to stand against the shadow but I would say:

 

Kidnapping Mattin Stepannoes was for and to prepare for the Last Battle? Or was it because it served the White Towers 'political' machinations?

 

Same thing with the ruler of that country of Iturlade's.

 

Kidnapping the Dragon Reborn, torturing him daily and locking him in a box was for the benefit of the world? Ok...

 

I would hope you can agree that the current world wouldn't put up with these actions, at all. I would go so far as to say that our world would form a coalition and bring these people to heel and put them on trial. Aes Sedai won't go on trial for any of their crimes. The most we can hope for is some humility and they can work with and serve the world instead of tryin to manipulate it...

 

I don't know how slavery and the Seanchan has anything to do with what the White Tower does. Slavery and a'dam are worse for different reasons, but Aes Sedai are a notch below slavery in my opinion.

 

The examples you gave were either Elaida(post Padan Fain corruption) or the Black Ajah. They don't really represent the tower as a whole.

 

Also you didn't answer my question. To your mind what does "benefit of the WT" mean? What do you believe there goals to be? Since you use the term "political machinations" do you believe they have sinister intentions?

 

You know, it gets more then a little tiring hearing this excuse time and time again by people who defend the white tower. The people raising Elaida knew what she was like. They knew that she would probably try to kidnap or gentle the dragon reborn and they raised her anyway. When she sent sisters to kidnap Rand and attack the black tower the hall did nothing. The white tower is just as responsible for those actions as Elaida is.

 

No this doesn't mean that the white tower is all bad. They do help protect the world against men who can channel and they do offer healing to anyone who comes to the tower but overall the world would probably be a better place without them in it.

[gambril]

Well, Dominic has written more eloquently on it than I can. I'll see if I can find his posts.

 

Ah yes I missed this. Doma's post are always excellent and on point, <3 that guy.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

 

 

The Aes Sedai only have complete control over Tar Valon. No present day Aes Sedai has used channeling to "oppress those w/o the ability". Who have they attempted to overthrow with the power? Again a huge difference between political manipulation and overt use of the one power with force. If they had been attempting to conquer and unify Randland under the Amrylin's rule you might have an argument. You can not compare political maneuvering to forced slavery.

 

It has nothing to do withusing the Power. If I have a loaded gun (channeling) pointed at your face threatening you, whether directly or indirectly and telling you to either come with me (kidnappping) or telling you what you will do (for the benefit of the White Tower mind, not for the benefit of that country mind you. If it does happen to benefit said country/ruler...it's an after thought and not the true intent of an Aes Sedai) then it's the same thing.

 

All the rulers of Randland (minus Murandy) gathering at the Fields of Merrilor due to a letter by the Amyrlin doesn't signify the White Tower's iron grip on Randland, then I don't know what will. Or the comment that even the LCC of the Whitecloaks would come to a summon by the Amrylin...

If you don't know after reading 13 books that rulers of Randland don't act without considering what Aes Sedai will think or do because of said acts, then I don't know why I even try.

 

Quick questions, when you say "for benefit of the WT" what do you think that means? In your mind what is the AS goal? Do you think they believe they are acting for the common good?

 

With kidnapping you are talking about something that non channelers have been know to do in the series as well, it is not unique to Elaida. In terms of the gathering at FoM... well it concerns the last battle and fate of the world, I would hope said rulers would be in attendance. You still have not explained how forced slavery stands on the same moral ground as political maneuvering from a position of strength.

 

Benefit of the White Tower means exactly what it says. The benefit of the White Tower is subject to their current whims and those whims don't factor in said contries needs first. You can argue that they do these things to prepare for the Last Battle and to stand against the shadow but I would say:

 

Kidnapping Mattin Stepannoes was for and to prepare for the Last Battle? Or was it because it served the White Towers 'political' machinations?

 

Same thing with the ruler of that country of Iturlade's.

 

Kidnapping the Dragon Reborn, torturing him daily and locking him in a box was for the benefit of the world? Ok...

 

I would hope you can agree that the current world wouldn't put up with these actions, at all. I would go so far as to say that our world would form a coalition and bring these people to heel and put them on trial. Aes Sedai won't go on trial for any of their crimes. The most we can hope for is some humility and they can work with and serve the world instead of tryin to manipulate it...

 

I don't know how slavery and the Seanchan has anything to do with what the White Tower does. Slavery and a'dam are worse for different reasons, but Aes Sedai are a notch below slavery in my opinion.

 

The examples you gave were either Elaida(post Padan Fain corruption) or the Black Ajah. They don't really represent the tower as a whole.

 

Also you didn't answer my question. To your mind what does "benefit of the WT" mean? What do you believe there goals to be? Since you use the term "political machinations" do you believe they have sinister intentions?

 

 

The legal head and former Amyrlin of the tower does not represent the White Tower? You will have to explain that one to me.

 

 

Independent actions ordered by the Amyrlin, orders that do not go before the Hall for a vote can not be said to represent the tower as a whole. Why do you think Elaida was so scared other AS would find out she ordered Rand kidnapped?

 

 

If you read the book you'll notice her fear stems more from having to admit failure than having to admit to the undertaking. The thought of having to tell the Hall that she lost all those Sisters and failed as well is what is bruising her hubris.

[Suttree]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

 

 

The Aes Sedai only have complete control over Tar Valon. No present day Aes Sedai has used channeling to "oppress those w/o the ability". Who have they attempted to overthrow with the power? Again a huge difference between political manipulation and overt use of the one power with force. If they had been attempting to conquer and unify Randland under the Amrylin's rule you might have an argument. You can not compare political maneuvering to forced slavery.

 

It has nothing to do withusing the Power. If I have a loaded gun (channeling) pointed at your face threatening you, whether directly or indirectly and telling you to either come with me (kidnappping) or telling you what you will do (for the benefit of the White Tower mind, not for the benefit of that country mind you. If it does happen to benefit said country/ruler...it's an after thought and not the true intent of an Aes Sedai) then it's the same thing.

 

All the rulers of Randland (minus Murandy) gathering at the Fields of Merrilor due to a letter by the Amyrlin doesn't signify the White Tower's iron grip on Randland, then I don't know what will. Or the comment that even the LCC of the Whitecloaks would come to a summon by the Amrylin...

If you don't know after reading 13 books that rulers of Randland don't act without considering what Aes Sedai will think or do because of said acts, then I don't know why I even try.

 

Quick questions, when you say "for benefit of the WT" what do you think that means? In your mind what is the AS goal? Do you think they believe they are acting for the common good?

 

With kidnapping you are talking about something that non channelers have been know to do in the series as well, it is not unique to Elaida. In terms of the gathering at FoM... well it concerns the last battle and fate of the world, I would hope said rulers would be in attendance. You still have not explained how forced slavery stands on the same moral ground as political maneuvering from a position of strength.

 

Benefit of the White Tower means exactly what it says. The benefit of the White Tower is subject to their current whims and those whims don't factor in said contries needs first. You can argue that they do these things to prepare for the Last Battle and to stand against the shadow but I would say:

 

Kidnapping Mattin Stepannoes was for and to prepare for the Last Battle? Or was it because it served the White Towers 'political' machinations?

 

Same thing with the ruler of that country of Iturlade's.

 

Kidnapping the Dragon Reborn, torturing him daily and locking him in a box was for the benefit of the world? Ok...

 

I would hope you can agree that the current world wouldn't put up with these actions, at all. I would go so far as to say that our world would form a coalition and bring these people to heel and put them on trial. Aes Sedai won't go on trial for any of their crimes. The most we can hope for is some humility and they can work with and serve the world instead of tryin to manipulate it...

 

I don't know how slavery and the Seanchan has anything to do with what the White Tower does. Slavery and a'dam are worse for different reasons, but Aes Sedai are a notch below slavery in my opinion.

 

The examples you gave were either Elaida(post Padan Fain corruption) or the Black Ajah. They don't really represent the tower as a whole.

 

Also you didn't answer my question. To your mind what does "benefit of the WT" mean? What do you believe there goals to be? Since you use the term "political machinations" do you believe they have sinister intentions?

 

The examples I gave are of the White Tower. Elaida was their leader. When the Sitters and other Aes Sedai found out about Elaida's actions....they did nothing ;p. If you want to argue that their actions don't reflect on the White Tower as a whole and don't indicate the White Tower's methods, then keep blowing that hot air.

 

Oh yes their actions are sinister, sinister indeed. Their goals are to bring everyone that doesn't wear the Aes Sedai tag to heel, how hard is that to understand?

 

You think that because they claim they serve the world, then they do when all their actions throughout the series (minus a select few, who were 'outlaws' in the Tower proper...) indicate otherwise.

 

I answered your questions twice now so return the favor and answer me this:

 

If I go and kidnap the ruler of a country, can I say in my defense that it was for their own benefit? To go even further, can I say that I'm not going to explain the details of why I kidnapped that ruler because it's the busniess of the White Tower and the business of the White Tower isn't to be known to those outside of it?

 

This is what you're defending as far as I can see it. They think their intentions are serving the Light and combating the Shadow but that doesn't make it true. To make it true, their actions would have to reflect this and by my estimations, they don't.

 

Actually Elaida told Mattin the reason she kidnapped him was to save him from Rand but no I don't believe it's an ideal way to go about business. There is really no defense for that particular episode. Although as I mentioned there are numerous times in the series we see non chanelling figures of power use kidnapping as a tool so I don't know why you are focusing on this one.

 

So you are proposing what I'm not understanding is that WT goals, rather than working for the common good(however ineffectively at times) are actually all aimed towards a secret sinister plot to bring non Aes Sedai to heel? Sorry, it's so obvious I can't believe I never saw that until know. Thanks for setting me straight. Looking forward the last battle should be the perfect time for them to use the chaos to consolidate their power and seize absolute control of Randland. Now that Elaida is gone I can't wait to see how this master plan unfolds with a somewhat competent Amrylin like Egwene at the helm. Guess we will find out in AMoL.

[moratcorlm]

It's hardly a contradiction that Aes Sedai might believe the common good entails and requires their being at the top of the heap, like most people who want power do.

[gambril]

Ok. I'll play along and go with what you said. Elaida tells Mattin that she kidnapped him to save him from Rand. Do you believe this is actually true?

 

What does it matter what other people do? We're talking about Aes Sedai here. If someone else goes and steals something that doesn't make it ok for me to do it as well eh.

 

So you don't think after reading thirteen books, that Aes Sedai don't look negatively down upon those who aren't 'blessed' with the title of Aes Sedai? Interesting...

 

And yes, throughout the story this has been the Aes Sedai's goal: To bring everyone to heel; to manipulate them. They must be in charge because they can channel and carry the title of Aes Sedai so this inherently makes them leaders. Ok...

 

Even Moiraine did this. The difference and reason why a lot of people love her is because she did it for the right reasons and those reasons were not for the White Tower, but for the world.

[gambril]

And as Moraticulum (sp) said on the first page about Doma knowing his business... (although this doesn't adress specifically what's being talked about...but it's relevant. I'll find another post of his that's more relevant) Here's some words of wisdom from Doma about the Oaths:

 

 

recisely, but the Aes Sedai are blind to this. Egwene spoke from the outsider perspective on this to Siuan once, who saw nothing of value or logical in Egwene's argument and hasten to convince her of the WT orthodox view about the Oaths. Egwene has adopted this vision now, it will be very hard to make her change her mind on it, and she has the whole establishment firmly behind her in this.

 

The Seanchan attack hasn't shaken the WT perspective that much. Actually, after the Seanchan attack where they killed as much as they captured, most sisters will not even need to reason to instinctively feel they are in danger for the lives whenever the Seanchan are involved, so the Third Oath will stop barely hinder them.. just the most shy of sisters, the sort more likely to flee to hide than fight anyway, not that there must be tons of those who passed the test for the shawl. This won't hinder the sistersin the fight the Shadow in the LB either. So there's not really any urgency to abandon the third Oath, and once the LB is won, the Oaths will have a purpose. Somehow, the Seanchan must be convinced the WT isn't a threat, that the sisters cannot use the OP to secure kingdoms and fight one another, the way it used to be in Seanchan, that damane are a bigger threat to peace than any AS: right now in Seanchan, there's a OP war going on, if Tuon would only see it. In the Westlands, the channellers have bound themselves against that and have succeeded for 3000 years to avoid war between channellers (all but with the Shadow's), and Egwene is working to unite the female channellers who have not made any such promise not to use the OP as a weapon (and Aviendha is about to reveal to the WO what will happen in the future if they don't give this up, and lead the Aiel to war against the Seanchan... the same will happen to the Windfinders... they'll become the black sheep of the lot if they insist to continue using the OP as a weapon as they see fit, it will eventually undermine their efforts to become a major economical player in the Westlands. People will fear they could be bought to fight for a nation, for the right price. They have done so in Andor already... theorically, what would stop them for doing so in Tear in 300 years, to protect their economical interests there from a takeover by another nation more hostile to the SF, or an emerging non SF nautical power using SF trained AS, let's say?).

 

If the war against the Seanchan doesn't end post TG, then the WT is in desperate need of allies, and it better act fast and give the nations something so invaluable that they unite with the WT to drive the Seanchan back to sea. That's where the WT has failed the most. The WOS and the TW are way, way in the past, and since then the Tower has let itself become more and more irrelevant in the daily life of nations. OH, they've negotiated peace treaties, and meddled with the rulers, but most of the time no one but the White Tower even understands what went on and what the WT accomplished (eg: one of Morgase's top advisor wasn't even aware of what Elaida and Siuan were doing when they humiliated him, because his raids on the borders made a plan to unify Murandy under a proper King at last fail completely... they rather kept their failure secret and let themselves pass for bullies and men-haters. The WT even passes for what is the real cause behind the War of Hundred Years, with their meddling to stop Hawkwing, whom the people loved (after which they added the first Oath, against lying)

 

The AS will have to work extremely hard to convince people to trust them, and help them against the Seanchan (maybe, if this isn't solved). I don't think now is a good time to abandon the Oaths, especially not now that the full power of the Aes Sedai is about to be demonstrated on the battelfield. It's after the Trolloc Wars the sisters were forced to introduce the Oath against using the OP as a weapon. The TW didn't make the people more inclined to trust AS, it made them more fearful of their power. With the Asha'man and mix gender work, it's going to be even worse at TG. The people are going to be very happy to let the AS and Asha'man fight the Shadow, then as soon as it's over they are going to remember all this Power is in the hands of channellers, and it's only because they promise not to that they don't use it. Announcing that the Tower renounces the Third and Second Oaths, when it's obvious they intend to join the Aiel WO, Windfinders and Asha'man in a war against the Seachan would horrify the people. All but the nobles and some rulers want this war, because they're afraid to lose their power. The people in general have so far welcomed the Seanchan, their order, safety and prosperity. They consider their lives better now, and even if some find horrific what they do to channellers, they are rather quick so far to forget about it and look the other way. This is the real war the WT has lost: the people in general no longer value them much or trust them much. Announcing they renounce the Oaths, after the demonstration of their power at TG, would mean the end of the White Tower. There would be no way to get back from there, from total war agains the Seanchan. Right now, only the Aiel and SF would support their channellers in this, and perhaps Andor might follow its Queen but that isn't certain. The rest of the world would turn to the Seanchan once the WT renounces the Oaths and start laying waste to the Seanchan provinces. They would all fear which nations to oppose the WT would suffer the same fate next, and would want the Windfinders and WO of the "savage Aiel" (because it's still how they're perceived, and their stunts following Rand has hardly changed this view) deal with, and only the Seanchan offer any solution, with their vast armies and leashed channellers.

 

The same way, after the War of Shadow, the people were dead afraid of weapons made with the OP (which were no doubt still around and made things even worse during the Breaking), and the Aes Sedai had to formally swear that they'd stop making those.

 

It's all well and good that Perrin's group start making those weapons again, and Elayne and Mat work to make war even uglier than it used to be, but after TG, the people will fear these weapons.

 

The first Oath was a bad idea, and is still a bad idea and as the AS forgot its real purpose and started going around it, it made things worse than they used to be, and cemented their reputation for dishonesty and deviousness. That's the one that really ought to go. It defeats the purpose that AS can be trusted.

 

For the other two Oaths, in the short and mid term, they're very likely more needed than ever. Elayne's escalation is hardly the right solution - she's preparing for a very ugly world war, and doing that might actually be its cause. The Andorans would probably be better off under Seanchan rule than facing the sort of war Elayne is preparing to throw them into after TG. She is also making Andor and its alliance into a large potential threat, economically as well as militarily, to the other nations. She might spark the others to unite, or join the Seanchan, to counter her power. It's worse from the fact she's tied both to the Tower and the Aiel. We've seen in Aviendha's vision where Elayne's current plans, and the Aiel current plans, lead. It's bad, really bad.

 

The best thing that might happen now is that Egwene manages somehow to put an end to the hostilities with the Seanchan for good, before it comes to a post TG war. Rand enforcing a truce isn't the solution - it will turn into an even uglier conflict after he's gone, a new War of Hundred Years.

 

It sounds to me like the short term solution is hardly to abandon the Oaths, it's to go on with the alliance of channellers and extend to the Asha'man and Windfinders and WO the adoption of the second and third Oaths. The greatest contribution Rand might still make to the post TG world is to explain the sort of society that emerged in the AOL and managed to make war obsolete as a way to solve conflicts. Even the AOL Aes Sedai, as respected and trusted as they used to be, had to turn to the Binder after the War of Shadow. The WT starts in the post TG in far, far worse position. I doubt it can afford to abandon the Oaths on the Binder in the short term. In tlonger term, the Binder should be returned to something like its original purpose, but that can only happen when channellers are much, much valued and respected than they are now, and for that to happen, they'll have to return to live among the rest of the population and make people benefit from their gifts again. It would take but decades of the AS living among the people, building wonders not for themselves but for everyone, helping with agriculture, and the weather, and trade, rebuild the cities and roads, offering healing at large and so much more they could do if they were Servants of All again in truth, to make themselves invaluable again. They'd do far more for world peace by doing this and refusing their services to nations that go to war then any political scheming and games of influence have ever accomplished. As LTT could perfectly explain to the WT if he's so minded. The WT had it all wrong, it's the masses that abandon them right now and let the Seanchan have their way. It's the masses the WT needed to keep on their side. For 3000 years, the WT has rather sought to control the rulers. If the WT served the people, and going to war meant losing Healing, agricultural help, Travelling, and crippling a nation's trade for the duration of the war and the years it took to pay war repairs, the people would refuse to let their rulers go to war. Incidentally, it wouldn't take that long before the people stop wanting monarchies and seek to have a greater role in the ruling of their nation...

 

It's one positive way in which Rand could "break the world", by giving enough people and rulers a taste of what the AOL was really like, with democracy, and the channellers serving, with the Aiel a constant symbol of these ideals, and a constant reminder to the Aes Sedai that the most defenseless of all people served them and were their responsabilty, and expected them to embrace these ideals of global peace in their services and their use of the OP.

 

Once the AS are invaluable once more, and have the masses behind them, then the Oaths on the Binder will become useless for real. But they're at least a few decades from there if not more, realistically. If they can afford to lose the Oaths before the end of the series, it will sound a bit like a fairytale ending, IMO.

[gambril]

Found another one regarding Aes Sedai that should be informative. Another post by Doma copied and pasted from Wheel of Time message boards:

 

 

The Trolloc Wars were a three-century war, without a clear cut but rather a very dragged out finish, most likely.

 

After the trauma of that war, and no foreknowledge that this wouldn't come again sooner than later, it would make sense there were factions in the Tower that were adamant that this sort of testing should become the permanent norm by which the qualifications of a woman for the shawl were measured. Between the lines, it appears the White Tower was far from ready for the Trolloc Wars. They had just gone through five centuries of a sort of Renaissance, with near global peace and a rise in the Tower's standing in the world (the Covenant of Ten Nations was the work of the Grey Mabriam en Sheered). They may very well have become a bit complacement about the Shadow, a little too self-assured that a new Golden Age was right on the corner.

 

This ter'angreal would be put to much better use training sisters in the art of combat than for any testing... It would make sense for the Yellows with the proper personalities to go through this sort of training, so they could act as battlefield medics. For most Yellows, this is useless - very few Aes Sedai ever sees a battlefield in their life. It's not learning under threat they need, it's gaining the experience to perform healing even in difficult conditions.

 

As Nynaeve implied in her criticism, a great deal of the test was about putting her in situations where she should have made a judgement call whether she should help or not. except the universal answer was always she had to detach herself from everything, to go perform useless weaves. The thing is, the greater purpose for Nyaneve in most of these situations was to use her skills to help the people, not to abandon them!

 

What it looks to me is that this test was originally targeted at an ingrained mentality, an AOL revival during the Covenant, that Aes Sedai were to be servants of all whenever they could. With the Trolloc Wars, the Tower had to drill into the sisters and the recruits that they had to abandon this mentality because the decision had been made that the whole Tower's priority was to survive and fight the war and that for now that would be the only way in which the sisters would serve all. This test was good to determine which sisters and recruits were "hard" enough to cope with this. It's a fairly good test to separate those who would make good soldiers from those who wouldn't.

 

My hunch is that the "aloofness" of the Green Ajah dates back from the aftermath of the Trolloc Wars. I bet the Ajah was unready for the Trolloc Wars, and sort of promised themselves that in the future they would stand aside from the day-to-day fight with the Shadow (Blight etc.) to be ready for another general attack, be it another TW or Tarmon Gai'don. It maybe from this era that came the apparent mentality that a Green Sister ought to do not much else than train, get many warders, let them train and together "stand ready".

 

One problem with this is that most of the Tower post-TW seems to have adopted this mentality that Aes Sedai should "stand aside", instead of spreading out and be servants of all. They played the Shadow's game doing this. Over the centuries, this new mentality of a Tower frightened not to be ready for another Trolloc Warsand holding itself in reserve became detachement and aloofness and the loss of the service mentality. The Aes Sedai tend to now see themselves as too valuable for the world to serve the world. Today's AS tend to see what their AOL predecessors considered their duty and mission above all else as "menial jobs" below their standing. They don't build, they don't work at technological advances, they don't look for ways to bring progress or better the general living of anyone, they don't touch the weather or help with crops, have not tought of ways to bring Healing to the population at large etc. They even loath selling stuff they make - sheesh... in the AOL it looks like the AS never tired up of inventing new things to send into mass production!

 

Instead of using their skills to the utmost on a daily basis, they all "stood ready" for this once in an Age mission, and over the centuries ironically they even let themselves become completely unready to face that, Tarmon Gai'don. As their value to people in general got lower and lower (most people spend their whole life without seing even the shadow of a service rendered them by a channeller), they became more and more obsessed with the rulers and politics. The most visible actions from the Tower for millenia now are strictly diplomatic and political. They placed all their efforts not on service, but on maintaining and increasing their standing and power over the rulers, through politics. It's now how they maintain their dominion: if you can't gain the respect and love of the masses, control those who rule the people and they'll have no choice to follow. It's no wonder the regular folk neither respect nor like them very much now - and barely know anything true about them.

 

You get the feeling that things were really different in the AOL. Aes Sedai were everywhere, and you could see tangible evidence of their service to society looking out of the window, or roasting your toasts in the morning. It's probably not LTT and the Hall that sought dominion during the war. Rather the people turned to the Aes Sedai, because they trusted them and found them the better equiped to lead the War. Not only that, but wartime calls for fast decisions and some sort of unique command, and no one was afraid to put the First Among the Servants in charge, and to let him supervise the politicians... LTT was not seen as a threat, political or otherwise.

 

In the New Era, few trust the AS, and few wants them in charge of anything - and all believe they will do their utmost to grab power and be in charge, and it's not altogether false... The mentality of today's AS is a complete travesty of their AOL counterparts', and yet they want all the respect and honour and influence that the people were freely granting the AS in LTT's times.

 

The Tower will need more and more sisters who think like Nynaeve and Elayne after TG, and could have used a revolution in this matter centuries ago... Even Egwene isn't seeing clearly enough what the Tower ought to be, or rather what the AS will need to do if they want to deserve the standing, power and respect Egwene wants to be theirs again. Among other things, it should include a gradual detachment from politics. The Tower should build up power not because the OP makes them powerful, but seek to increase its influence because they're so valuable to society it becomes unthinkable not to seek the opinion of the WT. The best way the WT could encourage peace isn't by playing politics with the rulers, it would be by providing invaluable services to every nation (Travelling, Healing, building, weather control, ter'angreal, agriculture... there's so much they could do) and make clear the WT will pull out all its Aes Sedai if a nation goes to war. Rulers would think twice before losing all this, crippling their economy and all by going to war, and that's where the Greys could come in to help settle conflicts peacefully. Etc. Of course, before the Tower could become such an organization, it needs to get the allegiance or an alliance with all the other channellers, or this will turn rapidly into pre-Empire Seanchan, with powerful channelers at war with one another and standing with different factions/nations. It's one of the main reason why the male and female channellers must become able to speak with one voice and belong to the same organization, and it's also important that Elayne's efforts to secure channellers for her nation and her nation alone be stopped and retought, before this escalates, with Tear or Illian making approaches to other groups, for instance the Asha'man, out of fear and jealousy of Andor.

 

Egwene really will have a lot on her plate post-TG.

 

***End***

 

 

This is why a lot of people voice criticism of Aes Sedai, this is just one example and stated more eloquently that I could hope to accomplish; just thought I'd share this with others.

[Mr Ares]

Right. Let us completely forget how Bonwhin threw the entire continent into turmoil by attempting to manipulate Artur Hawkwing to become her lackey. This was with the oaths. I dread to think of a world where women such as Elaida, Alanna and co. can run around without any oaths preventing them from monopolozing the OP as a weapon to strengthen their position. I am quite sure you are versed enough in the amount of trouble these women caused with the oaths.

 

The oaths are what make the Aes Sedai the servants, their original role, which got somewhat corrupted over the span of time. If they plan on removing them they should retire the name Aes Sedai and rename their order to something more suitable.

Except AS existed in the AoL, before the universal application of the Oaths. Back then they were only for criminals. Back when they were servants they were unbound, now they are servants in name only they are bound, so how is it that them being bound makes them servants, or AS? Organisations of unbound channelers already exist - Windfinders, Wise ones and Kin. Despite that, the Seanchan target all channelers equally. It's not even true that all AS are power hungry manipulators. The Oaths are not the answer, they are not any kind of solution to the problems the WT has, those problems come from within, from their attitude, and attitude that must change in the world to come or it will lead to their destruction.

 

 

Iron grip is really stretching it. Sure, the Tower was the most influential political entity in Randland before the Dragon Reborn came, but they weren't in total control by any means. In Amadicia they were killed on sight and they could do nothing to change the laws there. In Tear channelling was outlawed and again the Aes Sedai couldn't do anything to change that. The wars between Tarabon and Arad Doman continue to happen almost every year, despite attempts of the Tower to ensure a long term peace. In Cairhien, we were told in TGH that the king would've kept the Horn of Valere for himself even against Verin and the Tower's wishes to take it.

 

If they were strong enough to control everything directly, they wouldn't have needed to manipulate the monarchs and nobles, they would've ordered them directly all the time.

 

 

How do they exert the control? Through manipulation and downright despicable actions. Lord only knows how much is sealed by the flame. Alone in the past years the Tower is directly implicated in kidnapping a King, kidnapping/torturing an Emperor, instigating rebellion in Tear. Prior to that we know the Aes Sedai gambled to prop up a puppet on the Cairhienen throne.

 

Then the Seanchan are the evil ones for claiming that channelers always seek to undermine authority, bring turmoil, seed anarchy and demand self-entitlement? I honestly don't see it that black and white. Sorry.

No, the Seanchan are considered the bad guys for (among other things) thinking that the solution to some channelers being power hungry is to enslave all of them, and treat them like animals. Channelers don't "always seek to undermine authority, bring turmoil, seed anarchy and demand self-entitlement". Not even all AS. The WT is the way it is because it was able to enforce a virtual monopoly on the Power - lack of competition led to stagnation. We have seen three Amyrlins over the course of the series, and two (Siuan and Egwene) are shown in a largely positive light. The Seanchan do not care about the positive and negative aspects of the Tower, nor those of any other channeling organisation, they simply want to leash them all. As it is, the WT has quite a lot of influence, enough to get any ruler, however reluctant, to the WT for a meeting, but not enough to universally impose its wishes on the world. Countries can often ignore their wishes with impunity.

 

You know, it gets more then a little tiring hearing this excuse time and time again by people who defend the white tower. The people raising Elaida knew what she was like. They knew that she would probably try to kidnap or gentle the dragon reborn and they raised her anyway. When she sent sisters to kidnap Rand and attack the black tower the hall did nothing. The white tower is just as responsible for those actions as Elaida is.

 

No this doesn't mean that the white tower is all bad. They do help protect the world against men who can channel and they do offer healing to anyone who comes to the tower but overall the world would probably be a better place without them in it.

The people who raised Elaida knew what she was like? She had been out of the Tower for many years, returning only recently. True, as advisor to Morgase she wouldn't have been off the radar entirely, but I think it's a bit much to suggest that the Hall is comprised solely of people who are wonderful judges of character, who knew what she was like, and who went along with it. When she sent sisters to kidnap the Dragon and attack the BT, the Hall didn't know. That's probably the biggest part of why they didn't do anything against it, not universal support. Really, I fail to see how the world would be significantly improved by the absence of AS - they might not do much to help the world, but they do more to help it than to hinder it. Take away the AS playing politics, and you are left with... everyone else playing politics.

[Orderofolde]

The biggest obstacle for peace ( or at least a ceasefire ) between the Seanchan and the rest of Randland is the issue of Damane. The Seanchan would not part with their weapon and the AS, wiseones and the seafolk will not rest easy while there is a constant threat of them getting collared, not to mention those that have already been collared.

 

I feel like the best inducement for the seanchan to stop collaring damane is to convince them that it is an obsolete "technology" and that Aludra's cannons are the weapons of the future. Certainly Tuon saw the potential of the repeating crossbow as a very big advantage and I am sure she will be quick to realize the firepower of the dragons just as Elayne and Birgette had.

 

Mat has the plans and I think he might use it to bargain with tuon in order to get them to unite with the rest of the randland armies that will be under his command. The only problem here is that Aludra hates the Seanchan and will never allow the cannons to be shared with the Seanchan. Therefore, I have this odd feeling that she will die somehow. I know it is not in any of the prophecies but I can't seem to shake this theory in my mind.

I'm sorry, I can't get past the sceene where Mat and Tuon meet up again, and she corrects him telling him her new name, and he's like, "No, your name is Tuon." And she humors him because of his rank or his Taveren nature.

[Suttree]

Right. Let us completely forget how Bonwhin threw the entire continent into turmoil by attempting to manipulate Artur Hawkwing to become her lackey. This was with the oaths. I dread to think of a world where women such as Elaida, Alanna and co. can run around without any oaths preventing them from monopolozing the OP as a weapon to strengthen their position. I am quite sure you are versed enough in the amount of trouble these women caused with the oaths.

 

The oaths are what make the Aes Sedai the servants, their original role, which got somewhat corrupted over the span of time. If they plan on removing them they should retire the name Aes Sedai and rename their order to something more suitable.

Except AS existed in the AoL, before the universal application of the Oaths. Back then they were only for criminals. Back when they were servants they were unbound, now they are servants in name only they are bound, so how is it that them being bound makes them servants, or AS? Organisations of unbound channelers already exist - Windfinders, Wise ones and Kin. Despite that, the Seanchan target all channelers equally. It's not even true that all AS are power hungry manipulators. The Oaths are not the answer, they are not any kind of solution to the problems the WT has, those problems come from within, from their attitude, and attitude that must change in the world to come or it will lead to their destruction.

 

 

Iron grip is really stretching it. Sure, the Tower was the most influential political entity in Randland before the Dragon Reborn came, but they weren't in total control by any means. In Amadicia they were killed on sight and they could do nothing to change the laws there. In Tear channelling was outlawed and again the Aes Sedai couldn't do anything to change that. The wars between Tarabon and Arad Doman continue to happen almost every year, despite attempts of the Tower to ensure a long term peace. In Cairhien, we were told in TGH that the king would've kept the Horn of Valere for himself even against Verin and the Tower's wishes to take it.

 

If they were strong enough to control everything directly, they wouldn't have needed to manipulate the monarchs and nobles, they would've ordered them directly all the time.

 

 

How do they exert the control? Through manipulation and downright despicable actions. Lord only knows how much is sealed by the flame. Alone in the past years the Tower is directly implicated in kidnapping a King, kidnapping/torturing an Emperor, instigating rebellion in Tear. Prior to that we know the Aes Sedai gambled to prop up a puppet on the Cairhienen throne.

 

Then the Seanchan are the evil ones for claiming that channelers always seek to undermine authority, bring turmoil, seed anarchy and demand self-entitlement? I honestly don't see it that black and white. Sorry.

No, the Seanchan are considered the bad guys for (among other things) thinking that the solution to some channelers being power hungry is to enslave all of them, and treat them like animals. Channelers don't "always seek to undermine authority, bring turmoil, seed anarchy and demand self-entitlement". Not even all AS. The WT is the way it is because it was able to enforce a virtual monopoly on the Power - lack of competition led to stagnation. We have seen three Amyrlins over the course of the series, and two (Siuan and Egwene) are shown in a largely positive light. The Seanchan do not care about the positive and negative aspects of the Tower, nor those of any other channeling organisation, they simply want to leash them all. As it is, the WT has quite a lot of influence, enough to get any ruler, however reluctant, to the WT for a meeting, but not enough to universally impose its wishes on the world. Countries can often ignore their wishes with impunity.

 

You know, it gets more then a little tiring hearing this excuse time and time again by people who defend the white tower. The people raising Elaida knew what she was like. They knew that she would probably try to kidnap or gentle the dragon reborn and they raised her anyway. When she sent sisters to kidnap Rand and attack the black tower the hall did nothing. The white tower is just as responsible for those actions as Elaida is.

 

No this doesn't mean that the white tower is all bad. They do help protect the world against men who can channel and they do offer healing to anyone who comes to the tower but overall the world would probably be a better place without them in it.

The people who raised Elaida knew what she was like? She had been out of the Tower for many years, returning only recently. True, as advisor to Morgase she wouldn't have been off the radar entirely, but I think it's a bit much to suggest that the Hall is comprised solely of people who are wonderful judges of character, who knew what she was like, and who went along with it. When she sent sisters to kidnap the Dragon and attack the BT, the Hall didn't know. That's probably the biggest part of why they didn't do anything against it, not universal support. Really, I fail to see how the world would be significantly improved by the absence of AS - they might not do much to help the world, but they do more to help it than to hinder it. Take away the AS playing politics, and you are left with... everyone else playing politics.

 

Finally a voice of reason.

 

Was beginning to think the whole board had gone mad with all this talk that Seanchan slavery was just a small step worse than how the witches, hags(insert other derogatory term for Aes Sedai)treat people in Randland.

[yoniy0]

We're talking about Aes Sedai here.

Yes, and that's beginning to be a problem.

I'll ask you all to kindly keep your remarks on topic.

 

EDIT: Oh, and did you know that you don't actually need to quote everything that came before every time you make a new post (double )? Quoting only those parts of former posts you intend to refer to in yours will go a long way towards making the entire thread more legible.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Right. Let us completely forget how Bonwhin threw the entire continent into turmoil by attempting to manipulate Artur Hawkwing to become her lackey. This was with the oaths. I dread to think of a world where women such as Elaida, Alanna and co. can run around without any oaths preventing them from monopolozing the OP as a weapon to strengthen their position. I am quite sure you are versed enough in the amount of trouble these women caused with the oaths.

 

The oaths are what make the Aes Sedai the servants, their original role, which got somewhat corrupted over the span of time. If they plan on removing them they should retire the name Aes Sedai and rename their order to something more suitable.

Except AS existed in the AoL, before the universal application of the Oaths. Back then they were only for criminals. Back when they were servants they were unbound, now they are servants in name only they are bound, so how is it that them being bound makes them servants, or AS? Organisations of unbound channelers already exist - Windfinders, Wise ones and Kin. Despite that, the Seanchan target all channelers equally. It's not even true that all AS are power hungry manipulators. The Oaths are not the answer, they are not any kind of solution to the problems the WT has, those problems come from within, from their attitude, and attitude that must change in the world to come or it will lead to their destruction.

 

 

Iron grip is really stretching it. Sure, the Tower was the most influential political entity in Randland before the Dragon Reborn came, but they weren't in total control by any means. In Amadicia they were killed on sight and they could do nothing to change the laws there. In Tear channelling was outlawed and again the Aes Sedai couldn't do anything to change that. The wars between Tarabon and Arad Doman continue to happen almost every year, despite attempts of the Tower to ensure a long term peace. In Cairhien, we were told in TGH that the king would've kept the Horn of Valere for himself even against Verin and the Tower's wishes to take it.

 

If they were strong enough to control everything directly, they wouldn't have needed to manipulate the monarchs and nobles, they would've ordered them directly all the time.

 

 

How do they exert the control? Through manipulation and downright despicable actions. Lord only knows how much is sealed by the flame. Alone in the past years the Tower is directly implicated in kidnapping a King, kidnapping/torturing an Emperor, instigating rebellion in Tear. Prior to that we know the Aes Sedai gambled to prop up a puppet on the Cairhienen throne.

 

Then the Seanchan are the evil ones for claiming that channelers always seek to undermine authority, bring turmoil, seed anarchy and demand self-entitlement? I honestly don't see it that black and white. Sorry.

No, the Seanchan are considered the bad guys for (among other things) thinking that the solution to some channelers being power hungry is to enslave all of them, and treat them like animals. Channelers don't "always seek to undermine authority, bring turmoil, seed anarchy and demand self-entitlement". Not even all AS. The WT is the way it is because it was able to enforce a virtual monopoly on the Power - lack of competition led to stagnation. We have seen three Amyrlins over the course of the series, and two (Siuan and Egwene) are shown in a largely positive light. The Seanchan do not care about the positive and negative aspects of the Tower, nor those of any other channeling organisation, they simply want to leash them all. As it is, the WT has quite a lot of influence, enough to get any ruler, however reluctant, to the WT for a meeting, but not enough to universally impose its wishes on the world. Countries can often ignore their wishes with impunity.

 

You know, it gets more then a little tiring hearing this excuse time and time again by people who defend the white tower. The people raising Elaida knew what she was like. They knew that she would probably try to kidnap or gentle the dragon reborn and they raised her anyway. When she sent sisters to kidnap Rand and attack the black tower the hall did nothing. The white tower is just as responsible for those actions as Elaida is.

 

No this doesn't mean that the white tower is all bad. They do help protect the world against men who can channel and they do offer healing to anyone who comes to the tower but overall the world would probably be a better place without them in it.

The people who raised Elaida knew what she was like? She had been out of the Tower for many years, returning only recently. True, as advisor to Morgase she wouldn't have been off the radar entirely, but I think it's a bit much to suggest that the Hall is comprised solely of people who are wonderful judges of character, who knew what she was like, and who went along with it. When she sent sisters to kidnap the Dragon and attack the BT, the Hall didn't know. That's probably the biggest part of why they didn't do anything against it, not universal support. Really, I fail to see how the world would be significantly improved by the absence of AS - they might not do much to help the world, but they do more to help it than to hinder it. Take away the AS playing politics, and you are left with... everyone else playing politics.

 

Finally a voice of reason.

 

Was beginning to think the whole board had gone mad with all this talk that Seanchan slavery was just a small step worse than how the witches, hags(insert other derogatory term for Aes Sedai)treat people in Randland.

 

 

Why devolve a civil debate by using belittling terms towards the Aes Sedai?

 

Seanchan damane use is an interesting issue since at the end of the day there is probable cause for their action and there is more than enough evidence that the actions and deeds of a group such as the White Tower do more than give credence to the paranoia of the Seanchan. It is also telling that the Seanchan put the welfare of the common people on an exemplary pedestal, much more so than any other society. It is more than a few times that we heard how happy and content people seemed with the Seanchan when scouring through Ebou Dar or other places. It certainly seems to key in with the Seanchan philosophy of chaining up channelers for the greater good of society to keep it stable and intact. We see more than enough societies which murder male channelers for being a disruptive force, so why the moral outrage at a society that seeks to segregate female channelers for being a disruptive force from their own?

[yoniy0]

I suggest someone start a topic about the legitimacy of leashing channellers. If not, I'll be forced to lock this one (there, now I've told you twice).

[gary0044187]

The biggest obstacle for peace ( or at least a ceasefire ) between the Seanchan and the rest of Randland is the issue of Damane. The Seanchan would not part with their weapon and the AS, wiseones and the seafolk will not rest easy while there is a constant threat of them getting collared, not to mention those that have already been collared.

 

I feel like the best inducement for the seanchan to stop collaring damane is to convince them that it is an obsolete "technology" and that Aludra's cannons are the weapons of the future. Certainly Tuon saw the potential of the repeating crossbow as a very big advantage and I am sure she will be quick to realize the firepower of the dragons just as Elayne and Birgette had.

 

Mat has the plans and I think he might use it to bargain with tuon in order to get them to unite with the rest of the randland armies that will be under his command. The only problem here is that Aludra hates the Seanchan and will never allow the cannons to be shared with the Seanchan. Therefore, I have this odd feeling that she will die somehow. I know it is not in any of the prophecies but I can't seem to shake this theory in my mind.

this is the op. Let us get back to it. Interesting that you think Damane will be replaced by technology. I can only see that if they come up with more technology than they have so far. Damane can do far more than steam engines and cannon. Steam engines cannot move from one city to another in a blink of an eye. Cannon cannot produce wind shields. I do not see mat giving Tuon these tools, he promised not to. My only other point is that I think seanchan were originally going to be enlightened by AS like Carlinya. Seems it will not happen now.

[Kvothe_the_bloodless]

Right. Let us completely forget how Bonwhin threw the entire continent into turmoil by attempting to manipulate Artur Hawkwing to become her lackey. This was with the oaths. I dread to think of a world where women such as Elaida, Alanna and co. can run around without any oaths preventing them from monopolozing the OP as a weapon to strengthen their position. I am quite sure you are versed enough in the amount of trouble these women caused with the oaths.

 

The oaths are what make the Aes Sedai the servants, their original role, which got somewhat corrupted over the span of time. If they plan on removing them they should retire the name Aes Sedai and rename their order to something more suitable.

Except AS existed in the AoL, before the universal application of the Oaths. Back then they were only for criminals. Back when they were servants they were unbound, now they are servants in name only they are bound, so how is it that them being bound makes them servants, or AS? Organisations of unbound channelers already exist - Windfinders, Wise ones and Kin. Despite that, the Seanchan target all channelers equally. It's not even true that all AS are power hungry manipulators. The Oaths are not the answer, they are not any kind of solution to the problems the WT has, those problems come from within, from their attitude, and attitude that must change in the world to come or it will lead to their destruction.

 

 

Iron grip is really stretching it. Sure, the Tower was the most influential political entity in Randland before the Dragon Reborn came, but they weren't in total control by any means. In Amadicia they were killed on sight and they could do nothing to change the laws there. In Tear channelling was outlawed and again the Aes Sedai couldn't do anything to change that. The wars between Tarabon and Arad Doman continue to happen almost every year, despite attempts of the Tower to ensure a long term peace. In Cairhien, we were told in TGH that the king would've kept the Horn of Valere for himself even against Verin and the Tower's wishes to take it.

 

If they were strong enough to control everything directly, they wouldn't have needed to manipulate the monarchs and nobles, they would've ordered them directly all the time.

 

 

How do they exert the control? Through manipulation and downright despicable actions. Lord only knows how much is sealed by the flame. Alone in the past years the Tower is directly implicated in kidnapping a King, kidnapping/torturing an Emperor, instigating rebellion in Tear. Prior to that we know the Aes Sedai gambled to prop up a puppet on the Cairhienen throne.

 

Then the Seanchan are the evil ones for claiming that channelers always seek to undermine authority, bring turmoil, seed anarchy and demand self-entitlement? I honestly don't see it that black and white. Sorry.

No, the Seanchan are considered the bad guys for (among other things) thinking that the solution to some channelers being power hungry is to enslave all of them, and treat them like animals. Channelers don't "always seek to undermine authority, bring turmoil, seed anarchy and demand self-entitlement". Not even all AS. The WT is the way it is because it was able to enforce a virtual monopoly on the Power - lack of competition led to stagnation. We have seen three Amyrlins over the course of the series, and two (Siuan and Egwene) are shown in a largely positive light. The Seanchan do not care about the positive and negative aspects of the Tower, nor those of any other channeling organisation, they simply want to leash them all. As it is, the WT has quite a lot of influence, enough to get any ruler, however reluctant, to the WT for a meeting, but not enough to universally impose its wishes on the world. Countries can often ignore their wishes with impunity.

 

You know, it gets more then a little tiring hearing this excuse time and time again by people who defend the white tower. The people raising Elaida knew what she was like. They knew that she would probably try to kidnap or gentle the dragon reborn and they raised her anyway. When she sent sisters to kidnap Rand and attack the black tower the hall did nothing. The white tower is just as responsible for those actions as Elaida is.

 

No this doesn't mean that the white tower is all bad. They do help protect the world against men who can channel and they do offer healing to anyone who comes to the tower but overall the world would probably be a better place without them in it.

The people who raised Elaida knew what she was like? She had been out of the Tower for many years, returning only recently. True, as advisor to Morgase she wouldn't have been off the radar entirely, but I think it's a bit much to suggest that the Hall is comprised solely of people who are wonderful judges of character, who knew what she was like, and who went along with it. When she sent sisters to kidnap the Dragon and attack the BT, the Hall didn't know. That's probably the biggest part of why they didn't do anything against it, not universal support. Really, I fail to see how the world would be significantly improved by the absence of AS - they might not do much to help the world, but they do more to help it than to hinder it. Take away the AS playing politics, and you are left with... everyone else playing politics.

 

The sitters in the tower should have had some idea about Elaidas personality especially in regards to men who can channel. Elaida is one of the most prominent sisters in the tower. She stands in the first rank in power, has been advisor to the largest nation for 20 years, is one of the fastest learners in the history of the tower and is the only sister with foretelling. Plus, Elaida was involved with the vileness from 20 years ago. If the sitters don't know this, then they are incompetent and doubly incompetent for raising someone they know nothing about with tarmon gaidon on the horizon.

 

In regards to the hall not knowing about the kidnapping attempt and the attack on the black tower, I don't believe the books mention if the hall knew or not. But again, if they didn't know they are incompetent. So the hall is either complicit or incompetent.