Will/ Can Nyneave Heal the 13x13 victims?

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hello all.

Nyneave healed Naeff's madness in TOM. Im wondering if she will find a way to heal all those poor souls who have been forcibly turned to the Shadow. Im not sure...it loses much as a plot device if Nyneave can just erase one of the creepiest things that is possible to do to someone else. If she can Heal that, it hardly matters that poor Tarna was turned, or that I bet Androl will be turned...those awful moments and fate will go from tragedies to just inconvienence.

[Suttree]

Here is a Q&A on the topic...

 

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

 

The bold section above seems to leave open the possibility of healing. We also know anything short of death should be able to be healed.

[gary0044187]

can she? I wouldn't doubt it. In fact I expect after healing taint madness she will notice the barbs in compulsion. will she? depends on how well the good guys do in the battle at the black tower. If they do well, they can win with few casualties to both sides, possibly subduing large numbers of their opponents and providing the chance to heal the compelled. If they get through by the skin of their teeth both sides could suffer higher casualty rates and large numbers of the compelled could escape with their masters.

 

after the battle at Maradon where a Domani and a Saldean army were described as all but wiped out before relief arrived, and the way the whitecloaks were described as almost wiped out before perrin assaulted down the slope, I simply expect the rest of the battles in the series to go like this, even ones where the good guys have a considerable advantage.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Thank you, Suttree, for that information. I wasnt aware it was a quote of the week. While Jordan wrote that the victim wouldnt seek to undo it, what about those close to that person? IF it can be healed, Id not see it as unethical to remove it despite the person's wishes to the contrary as it was forced upon them, falsely making them desire their Dark Side.

 

I wonder how it would look to Nyneave's Delving? Naeff's madness looked like black barbed hooks in his brain. Maybe 13X13 would be like a huge oil slick?

[Taura-Tierno]

I've thought of 13x13 turning as something permanent, that you really change the way a person thinks and acts. So, in my opinion, it's not really a wound, but drastic changes in the personality, so it shouldn't be Healable as such. So I think that to undo it, you'd have to twist and turn the personality to something good, sort of like doing the reverse, if that's possible. Other than that, maybe you could turn them back by therapy, or something like that. Or whatever else you'd do to convince a standard darkfriend to turn to the light. Might be possible for some, but not for others.

[sleepinghour]

Since only channelers are vulnerable to 13x13, it might be possible to restore them to normal by stilling them first and then have Nynaeve or Flinn Heal the stilling. It wouldn't be pleasant, but better than the alternatives.

[luftstark]

I see the 13x13 method as a way to bring to the surface all evil inside someone.

 

If u think as colors, it goes like this: Everyone is gray. When u turn someone with 13x13, you make the grey very very dark, almost black. Yet you can't destroy all light, so it's not pure black. To recover, you would have to make this white grow, using the OP (in a reverse method) or by some sort of mental therapy. It's possible for a person to return alone, but, as RJ said, very hard. But with help, someone showing "the good in the world" and such, it might work.

 

I don't think the 13x13 method is some sort of compulsion. It's more like a rearrangement of ones beliefs, suffocating all good and feeding the evil ones.

[rcfleming4]

Well the taint insanity also changed the way someone thought and acted. It wasn't compulsion, that one Asha'man remembered seeing the Fades after he'd been Healed. It also was something that Nyneave couldn't see until just recently as she's developed her Healing ability.

 

I'd say it's a type of brain injury just like the insanity was. However it may be to complicated to Heal, as with Rand's insanity.

[Taura-Tierno]

I don't think it's the same thing as the taint insanity. I'm sure it's possible to "heal" the turning, but consider that Graendal was the best at healing the mind in the AoL, and compulsion was her specialty. So I think it'd take some kind of compulsion-like weave to reverse the effect. Something like the opposite of what's done during the turning.

[Ananta]

I'm pretty sure that Nynaeve will be able to heal EVERYTHING (except death) by the time the series ends. She has the mindset that everything can be healed, thus I believe she can do it.

 

I'm willing to bet that she'll heal Rand's "unhealable" wounds before Rand heads to Last Battle.

[luftstark]

It is all a question about the nature of the effect.

 

If it is a weave, such as compulsion, (and we do have an OP component, the 13 black sisters (or dreadlords, that issue is still open), then another weave, either a reverse one or a unraveling of the original weave, would restore the effect.

 

But since we have a non-OP component, the 13 fades, then we add some complexity to the matter. A simple weave may not be enough to remove the Dark One touch (and i believe that's why they use fades, as they have some sort of link with the DO). It may require some sort of effort of the turned one. Conscious effort.

 

Also, it just came to me, maybe the dark wires that we often discussed (the ones Rand sees in Asmodean in Rhuidean (sp) and on Ishy on Falme) are a factor. What if the 13x13 process create those wires around someone? and it becomes a channel throu which the DO can directly influence someone, exacerbating the evil side of the person???

[Ananta]

It is all a question about the nature of the effect.

 

If it is a weave, such as compulsion, (and we do have an OP component, the 13 black sisters (or dreadlords, that issue is still open), then another weave, either a reverse one or a unraveling of the original weave, would restore the effect.

 

But since we have a non-OP component, the 13 fades, then we add some complexity to the matter. A simple weave may not be enough to remove the Dark One touch (and i believe that's why they use fades, as they have some sort of link with the DO). It may require some sort of effort of the turned one. Conscious effort.

 

Also, it just came to me, maybe the dark wires that we often discussed (the ones Rand sees in Asmodean in Rhuidean (sp) and on Ishy on Falme) are a factor. What if the 13x13 process create those wires around someone? and it becomes a channel throu which the DO can directly influence someone, exacerbating the evil side of the person???

Didn't Rand rip that chain out of Asmodean? That's why he was thought to have betrayed DO in the first place... Right? So it can be ripped away...?

 

 

It's been some time since I read the books, so I'm not completely sure about that... I'm not a walking Wotpedia like some people here are (No offence to anyone :x )

[luftstark]

Yes Rand did, but then, he is the Dragon Reborn. And he is, IIRC, the only person who can see it.

 

So if it turns out to be the dark wires, then it's hard to undo. Possible, but very hard.

[Xader]

I've thought of 13x13 turning as something permanent, that you really change the way a person thinks and acts. So, in my opinion, it's not really a wound, but drastic changes in the personality, so it shouldn't be Healable as such.

 

But since we have a non-OP component, the 13 fades, then we add some complexity to the matter. A simple weave may not be enough to remove the Dark One touch (and i believe that's why they use fades, as they have some sort of link with the DO). It may require some sort of effort of the turned one. Conscious effort.

 

I think in both of these ways, the 13x13 should be very similar to the madness and should be healed in a similar way.

 

After all what is the taint madness, if not a "change [in] the was a person thinks and acts" as a result of "the Dark One touch". And the effect of such can and is Healed with a weave...

[Jblaylock]

Can she? No! Impossible.

Will She? ... just maybe, knowing Nyniac.

[Taura-Tierno]

I've thought of 13x13 turning as something permanent, that you really change the way a person thinks and acts. So, in my opinion, it's not really a wound, but drastic changes in the personality, so it shouldn't be Healable as such.

 

But since we have a non-OP component, the 13 fades, then we add some complexity to the matter. A simple weave may not be enough to remove the Dark One touch (and i believe that's why they use fades, as they have some sort of link with the DO). It may require some sort of effort of the turned one. Conscious effort.

 

I think in both of these ways, the 13x13 should be very similar to the madness and should be healed in a similar way.

 

After all what is the taint madness, if not a "change [in] the was a person thinks and acts" as a result of "the Dark One touch". And the effect of such can and is Healed with a weave...

 

I've always thought of it as something more "natural", like a long-term, voluntary transition (like all the Forsaken had) that's just forced to take place in a few moments, or however long the turning takes. As such, you wouldn't be able to Heal the turning any more than you could Heal Graendal's or Demandred's evil. But you could, possibly, turn them back to the Light in a more mundane way. Or by using some form of Light side counterpart to the turning.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hi all...

Taura, I like what you wrote about the 13X13 being a permanent twisting of ones character. I agree with you, but that twisting wasnt done by a natural inclination to embrace evil; it was a Power wrought event. If it was natural, Id agree that it could only be undone by the person whod wish to change. So, as it was done by the Power wouldnt there be some weave or power induced damage that would (or could) be amenable to Healing? Lufstark, you wrote along the same lines, but I think there is a OP componenent in Fades, because they were a creation of Aginor's, made BY the One Power and a unique breeding program. While Fades cant channel, they can detect channeling, and as they can serve as a conduit for the 13X13 conversion, I think its very much a OP moment for the Fades that are involved.

 

I guess it all depends on HOW the 13X13 works. Its interesting that it leaves the person looking somewhat demented, with cold eyes. That says to me its something more than just forcing someone to love their inner Darkness.

 

The black cords Rand saw were the strings that attached the male Forsaken directly to the Great Lord of the Dark, protecting them from his taint on saidin/saidar (I do mix them up). Its concievable that something similar is created by the 13X13 switch.

[Taura-Tierno]

No, I don't think it would be necessary, not after the change is made. If you use Compulsion on someone, subtly, so make them more agreeable, would it leave any Healable traces after you've planted an idea in their heads? If you use the OP to just "open them up" mentally to influence, it wouldn't be the One Power doing the actual implantation of the ideas. I think the 13x13 turning is somewhat similar. Or, maybe we could use the standard battlefied Healing as another example. Would there be anything to "unheal" after a Healing, if we're looking for the reverse? I mean, it basically just speeds up the body's own ability to Heal, and the weave is not needed after the Healing is done. It might be detectable as a residue for a while, but there's nothing else left of it.

 

The same way with the 13x13 turning. if you use real Compulsion to twist someone, it isn't permanent, and the weave has to remain afterwards for the effect to remain. The turning, however, is permanent, by which I mean that the weave used brings forth the inner darkness, and once it is done, it's a done deal. That's the way the person will be, and there's no need for any weave or "strings" to keep the new personality intact. It is, in fact, an entirely new person, no different from anybody else. It could of course be reversed but some similar method (if there is one), but that wouldn't be Healing, as there's no wound or weave or anything that would seem to be wrong.

 

I'm not sure why the Myrddraal are needed. Compulsion does, as we know, have limitations and cannot be used for something as permanent as this. So maybe the fact that the Myrddraal are part human, and are already twisted and evil, makes it very easy to reach and manipulate the evil that is within every person.

[andrewatk]

Hello all.

Nyneave healed Naeff's madness in TOM. Im wondering if she will find a way to heal all those poor souls who have been forcibly turned to the Shadow. Im not sure...it loses much as a plot device if Nyneave can just erase one of the creepiest things that is possible to do to someone else. If she can Heal that, it hardly matters that poor Tarna was turned, or that I bet Androl will be turned...those awful moments and fate will go from tragedies to just inconvienence.

 

 

Even if it can be healed, I doubt there will be time and opprotunity to do so in the last book. I expect that the Good Guys/Gals will be too busy fighting to stay alive to worry about things like trying to figure out who was turned artificially and who came to the darkside normally, and trying to only capture the turned darksiders so they can be healed latter. I think their SOP will probably be to try and kill any darkside channelers as soon as they reveal themselves to be darkside by attacking the lightsiders.